Should Gurus get paid?

Gilana's picture



Average: 4.6 (18 votes)

You said, "Also, I would distrust gurus who charge money, period. There's nothing wrong with money, but nobody exchanges truth for cash... the truth is common, open to all. Don't buy water at the sea-shore, ask someone to point the way to the ocean."

My question and it really is a question to which I hope you will answer is: How is the guru supposed to live on earth if he doesn't get money? Seriously, is he supposed to manifest food and live under a tree? Or should he divide his time and energy between earning a living and guru-ing? Do we not owe these realized ones some small comfort in exchange for staying on earth (which, if they are realized, they do not have to do) and working with those who are asleep? Have you ever tried to wake a teen-ager up over and over and over and over and over...just to have them go back to sleep? Fun or frustrating?

Personally, I give money, and time, and sadhana, and love and everything else I can think of to try to get him the best of everything (as much as I can come up with), just to thank him for his first glance--that glance that sent an electric volt through me and sped everything up. The glance that told me God is alive an well on earth and functioning through a fellow human being. I will have to come up with more to do for him for everything that has followed.

But that's just me. What do you think?



nathan's picture

Dana (donation)

It is not the charging itself but the "how" - how it is charged. When it is a true donation up to the decision of the seeker, maybe the guru will not get rich but he will make a living. It is proved in reality.

But.... greedy gurus will not agree to depend on that system because money is an issue for them, instead of enlightenment they have spreadsheets.

nathan | Tue, 01/19/2010 - 10:06
hugo's picture

What Krishnamurti said about this

When Krishnamurti left the Theosophical Society he returned all the donation money he had received till then. He then embarked on an ambitious new path of his own. His assistances were shocked that he returned all the funds that had been donated to him and asked him how he was planning to fund all the many new spiritual projects he had in mind.

To this Krishnaji simply replied: "When you are doing the right thing, money comes".

In the same way I can argue that some of the true gurus can materialize money from thin air like Sathya Sai Baba might be doing. If you deny this upfront it means that you don't believe in anything paranormal which makes you a secular person (who I assume has no interest in visiting this spiritual website at the first place...)

In the above post you have a tacit skeptical secular assumption: that there is no metaphysical reality. That if one does not get money, he will not have such. This of course stems from our own limited disbelief and hidden conviction that the perceived physical reality is all there is. This is a good opportunity to witness these old atheist conditioning of ours.

hugo | Tue, 01/19/2010 - 14:14
barbara's picture

An issue of perspective, not of money

A true realized one is not concerned with lack of money. It is for him like for a regular person being worried about lack of water to drink when not in a desert - it may be easy, it may be hard but eventually he will always be able to find such water in different quality from somewhere, he will never find himself in panic.

We must always remember that the issue is perspective and not money or lack of money - the perspective of the realized one is different regarding the physical plane.

barbara | Tue, 01/19/2010 - 14:50
happy's picture

The factor of the connotations of money

Money itself is not pure nor impure, it's pieces of papers and metal. But our connotations of money are mostly impure.

Therefore, a new seeker, most probably having his negative connotations of money, is better not to be allowed to pay, especially in first stages in which the system of images and connotations is very powerful.

The guru may place a box for donations. It should be placed out of the guru sight. This way, the seeker will not feel in any way compelled in front of the guru. References to the donation and the box should be light and very gentle. This way, the seeker will have the option to discharge his energies of gratitude and will hardly feel that he was compelled to pay in any way.

happy | Tue, 01/19/2010 - 19:48
dobro's picture

"Should gurus get

"Should gurus get paid?"

Money's a hot topic.

Try to get into an Adyashanti event or a Tolle event without paying and see how far you get. I see nothing wrong with them charging for what they give, because giving something for what you get seems a pretty universal principle to me. Leaving the donation up to the user's discretion doesn't seem any more honest or subtle than charging a flat rate upfront; if anything, it seems to sort of avoid the issue. I also think that if you were really broke, Adyashanti or Tolle would be happy enough to let you in for free.

So should gurus get paid? I don't know if 'should' comes into it - I think it's up to the guru - but I see nothing wrong with teachers setting up a payment system that's either compulsory or voluntary.

dobro | Sat, 01/23/2010 - 01:12
happy together's picture

Do they admit that making moiney is a motive of their guruness?

The issue is not whether gurus get paid or not but whether their "guruness" has, among other things, a purpose of making a living.

Though in reality it is not preferable that one decides to be a teacher / master / guru with the motive of making money out of it or inflating his/her ego, of course in addition to a purpose to help others but it can still be tolerable to some extent but I think two golden rules should be exercised sternly if this guru is genuine:

(1) Full disclosure: he should admit explicitly, clearly and frankly that he has the motive in his "guruness" to make money. Full disclosure and honesty are key to true spiritual process.

(2) Priorities: That the money and ego motives should be way down in the priorities of the guru far away from the main motive: enormous urge to assist others out of pure compassion.

One important note: Based on my long experience with gurus, those who were truly spiritually evolved, that over time I clearly noticed that they are realized beyond basic doubt, they happened not to charge anything and even rejected gifts. All of them. Their high degree was not due to not charging but it was a clear common factor to all of them. I think this is an important sign that cannot be disregarded free-spirit arguments etc. It does not mean that all those who didn't charge were impressive.

happy together | Sat, 01/23/2010 - 13:08
david's picture

Exactly.

Exactly.

david | Sat, 01/23/2010 - 21:50
dobro's picture

Three things. "(1) Full

Three things.

"(1) Full disclosure: he should admit explicitly, clearly and frankly that he has the motive in his "guruness" to make money. Full disclosure and honesty are key to true spiritual process."

It seems to me if somebody's charging the public to attend their talks and workshops and retreats, then that's pretty much 'full disclosure', no?

"(2) Priorities: That the money and ego motives should be way down in the priorities of the guru far away from the main motive: enormous urge to assist others out of pure compassion."

Probably depends on how awakened the guru is, right? I mean there are gurus and then there are gurus, right? But here's another thing that I have to mention, cuz I'm convinced that guys like Adyashanti who charge for their services are doing really good work: some people will value what's given more highly if they pay for it. I don't know if that's Adyashanti's motive in charging money, but whatever it is, I trust it, because I think he's a really good teacher.

* Should cooks get paid? Should musicians get paid? The question sounds sort of silly if, instead of 'guru' you substitute the word 'cook' or 'musician'. I mean, some cooks do it for free. My mom, for instance. Some cooks charge. Byron Ayanoglu, for instance. Both are really good cooks. It's their choice what they do, it depends on their circumstances, and how they see their role as cook. Same with music - some really good musicians are amateur, and some are pro. So, why not apply to gurus that same flexibility of choice of charging or not charging for services? I dislike a 'one size fits all' approach to most things, and this is a case in point.

Here's a danger: you might think that somebody who charges isn't as good as somebody who teaches for free. Or, conversely, you might think that somebody who offers their teaching for free isn't as good and that's why they can't get paid for what they do. Both assumptions are really dangerous, cuz there's no necessary connection between money charged or not charged and quality of teaching.

Here's another danger: people who believe what I say about this and who don't think it through themselves might think 'well there's nothing wrong with teachers who charge, so here's this guy who's charging money for his teachings, so I guess that's alright'. But maybe the guy's a fake. Again, there's no necessary connection between guruship and money-making.

In the end, you assess a guru based on all the evidence, and money charged or not is just one detail in the entire picture.

dobro | Sun, 01/24/2010 - 01:43
happy together's picture

(1) That's why I used the

(1) That's why I used the word "explicitly" and not the word "implicitly" - when you say the things ("I'm here to make money out of this") you do not let the disciples' minds develop wishful interpretations, you are forced to face yourself. Doing a act and admitting explicitly about doing the act are two different things. The latter has a mental significance that does not let you escape your responsibility.

(2) There is no "how awakened the guru is" - he is either awakened or not awakened. You can say "how spiritually evolved he is" but we are not talking about these people that if dare to instruct others are irresponsible.

(3) Spirituality is not colinary, music or any other professional field that is completely in the reality dream. Impurity, desires, motives that are associated with the dream have in the case of spirituality a very problematic effect because of the very fact that spirituality deals precisely with these things. Music and culinary do not.

(4)

"Here's a danger: you might think that somebody who charges isn't as good as somebody who teaches for free."

I don't think it is a danger, it is a good indication.

happy together | Sun, 01/24/2010 - 09:04
shishmanidov35's picture

Why should they be paid?

The right questions is: WHY should they be paid?

If you try to answer this question honestly you will find out that any reason you come up with is ridiculous and demoting when you are discussing a realized guru. The emphasis is on "Why", on reasons and on the "should".

Our erroneous conflict is that on one hand we expect realized gurus to be evolved beyond involvement, desire, concern and attachment to the material aspects and on the other hand we believe that they are still concerned about money, survival and reward for their spiritual goods they provide.

shishmanidov35 | Sun, 01/24/2010 - 13:04
anderlaus's picture

We should pay only to false gurus

Truly realized gurus - not a penny.

False gurus - yes, we should pay and give adoration. Out of compassion for their terrible condition that causes them to deceive, of course.

anderlaus | Sun, 01/24/2010 - 22:37
mariposa's picture

Absolutely not!

This is not a matter of sacredness or pricelessness of spiritual doctrines, it is a matter of the way, of the special conduct when it is involved with spirituality. You can not have additional motives whatsoever as a teacher when you are dealing with this so delicate, so sensitive domain.

You can see a shocking example in http://www.gurusfeet.com/guru/catherine-ingram - see there my con opinion and visit the website from the links in the profile to understand what I mean. This is an extreme example but I think it demonstrates the problem and the enormous damage American New Age is doing to spirituality.

mariposa | Tue, 02/09/2010 - 22:54
Gilana's picture

Okay

Here's my question: What are "additional motives"?

Let's say we have said "Guru". He's enlightened and dedicated his life to holding Darshan, Satsang and taking Disciples. He lives in Los Angeles, because that is where his disciples are.

1. Where does he live?

2. What does he eat?

3. How does he buy clothes?

4. Does he drive a car? If so, where did he get it, how did he pay for it and how does he pay for insurance? How does he buy gas?

5. How does he get from place to place?

6. If you were the guru, how would you live without money?

We all know, or should know, that enlightenment does not entitle you to special treatment from the universe. You are going to need to live in the real world. Maybe the disciples should pass him around from household to household? Of course, that might cost money, too, which of course is unreasonable.

...whadayado?

Gilana | Wed, 02/10/2010 - 04:28
joejo's picture

Answer is Neither yes Nor no

Hi Gilana

This subject is very close to your heart and you seem to be very passionate about it. Therein lies the danger because when we are very emotional about something all the aspects about it are hidden from our view. Also this is a good opportunity to find out why are you so passionate about it? You could use this energy for self discovery.

Now coming specifically to your question. One of the ways to find out the answer is from the lives of Gurus. The Gurus in India have a certain code of conduct laid out for them though times have changed. A sanyasi ( Monk) renounces the world and some of the orthodox do not even touch money. Ramakrishna is one example known to the west. The context is cultural ethos is different in the west and asking for alms (begging for a meal ) may not be acceptable. Ramana Maharshi in his early days did just this before disciples started bringing him food.

Those with a mission find the means by divine providence. Life of Swami Vivekananda and Swami Rama Tirth both of whom visited USA proves this. Example of JK has already been sighted earlier.

I know of only one authentic Guru who asked for money and that was G. I Gurdjieff. The reasons for the same have been explained very well by PD Ouspensky in "Search for the Miraculous".

The most important thing to know is what is ones own and Gurus attitude towards money. The Lord in Geeta says that whosoever offers me a leaf, a flower or even water I accept it from the devotee who offers me with love. So ultimately its the attitude that counts.

joejo | Thu, 02/11/2010 - 14:03
Gilana's picture

Disciple's Grace

"The Guru is the Grace-bestowing power of God." - Shiva Sutras

The following quotes were taken from the article on Gurukripa Yoga at BhagawanNityananda.org

"Gurukripa Yoga is the yoga in which the disciple relies in the Grace of the Guru or Acharya (which is God's Grace) to carry him/her to liberation. The Shiva Sutras state "Gururupayah;" the Guru is the means. The Guru who has attained Self-realization is the only one who can help the aspirant acquire it. Gurukripa Yoga and Bhakti Yoga are one and the same because they both emphasize the process of drawing God's Grace to you through Selfless Service and complete Devotion/ Surrender to the Acharya.

IN THIS WAY, OVER TIME, YOU LEARN TO TAKE COMPLETE REFUGE IN GOD..."

I know this quote might seem to be more appropriate for the "Is a Guru really necessary" forums, but it seems to me to be appropriate here too.

I feel devotion to require attention and sacrifice from every aspect of a disciple...physical, mental, emotional, mystical, wisdom, etc.etc.etc.

It doesn't make sense to me to give everything in one way, but hold back in another. Lopsided, coniving, suspicsious aspects get fed when that happens in me. My guru has given gifts back to me and has taken a gift and then immediately given it to someone else. He doesn't greedily consume everything and ask for more. But he does require expenditure in many ways, not just monetary. Sadhanna is expected. If I don't want to give, there is my spiritual work. What do I want to hold back from God?

"This leads to a burning devotion to and love for the Guru, which leads to surrender of the impure ego. That Love has the power to perform miracles and it will transform your entire being and also, over time, heal all your latent illnesses. This Love comes from the Grace-bestowing power of the Guru and your own Self-effort at daily spiritual practice. It is your own Grace, known as Disciple's Grace, that is the foundation for this relationship between Acharya and Disciple. Your Grace is the most important element. Without it, the Master cannot do his work."

You said, "This subject is very close to your heart and you seem to be very passionate about it. Therein lies the danger because when we are very emotional about something all the aspects about it are hidden from our view. Also this is a good opportunity to find out why are you so passionate about it? You could use this energy for self discovery."

What do you think? Is it Disciple's Grace?

Gilana | Thu, 02/11/2010 - 18:03
joejo's picture

Great

Well if that is the way you feel then that's the Path and you are blessed indeed. I have been searching for a Guru all my life and even after meeting some great ones do not have the same feeling of devotion.

So great and may God bless you to have even greater devotion.

joejo | Fri, 02/12/2010 - 00:14
NIDHI PARKASH's picture

Shopkeepers designated as gurus

It has become a profession and each profession takes its wages from the society; therefore these people as gurus charge their thick salaries in the form of heavily donation from the disciples. Rare one is the true guru on this earth and can be recognized only with the grace of the Divine and such a realized soul needs nothing from the disciples for his own day to day maintenance.

NIDHI PARKASH | Wed, 02/10/2010 - 18:01
Gilana's picture

Rare indeed

Especially since they would starve quickly.

Unless they are a shopkeeper.

So...addressed to everyone....how do you really think these people live? Is realization so far from you, so etherial that they live on prana? If that is the case, isn't it really impossible for you to ever become realized too?

Isn't this silly discussion, this childish belief that a human being doesn't need money to pay for things a way for you to keep yourself from the responsibility of realizing yourself, here and now?

Gilana | Wed, 02/10/2010 - 18:51
NIDHI PARKASH's picture

> rare indeed

You have the imagination of Guru as beggar which is wrong or you have the thinking of guru such a person who needs his dependency for maintenance on disciples which is also wrong.
Our second Prime Minister Lal Bhahdur Shastri was a self-realized soul and our the most revered 'Father of the Nation', Mahatma Gandhi was also self-realized soul. Both were born self-realized souls who were on 2nd October the day which is observed in India as gazetted Government holiday to give respect to the both. Their society as well as the whole nation was dependent upon them. Lal Bahadur was the bright scholar of Sanskrit and ancient six schools on Indian classical philosophies. Mahatma Gandhi was an apostle of truth and violence; who is well known to the whole world. Opposite to it, Osho was the beggar of sensual gratification so such kinds of people need money and easy way to get money they chose the profession of becoming guru.

NIDHI PARKASH | Thu, 02/11/2010 - 04:05
Gilana's picture

Well

"But wait a minute. Ved Mehta reveals (not by any means an original revelation) that Gandhi was patronized by three powerful Indian industrialist of that era: G.D. Birla, Bajaj and Mr. Sarabhai. All three were constantly writing checks and funding Gandhi's vow of poverty!" from Ved Mehta's biography.

It looks like Prime Minister Lal Bhahdur Shastri was a saint and one of India's heros, but I don't find any notation of him being a Guru.

I don't mean to be disrespectful, please excuse me if it seems that I am being so, but do you know what a guru does? Have you ever had a guru?

A guru is more than a self-realized soul, or a government employee, no matter how high (both in politics and in realization).

A true guru is a realized soul who decides to work with people to help them to realize themselves. S/he take responsibilty for other peoples' souls. They will do anything to push, plead, trick or talk people into forgoing their ego and realizing themselves. They give their life to that. If you look at Osho's photos from the time he began speaking publically until he died at 58, you will see a man who aged impossibly fast. He looked at least 75 or 80 when he died. That is not the look of a pampered materialist.

I'm sorry you cannot find the divinity of Osho's teaching and life as so many others can. It's also sad that you have resorted to saying things that aren't true. However, not everyone can relate to every aspect of God, which makes us individuals.

I truly wish you well and hope you find what you are seeking.

Namaste.

Gilana | Thu, 02/11/2010 - 06:05
Gilana's picture

Lastly

I only know what I know of my own beloved guru, what his work is. I'm not even terribly sure of exactly what that intails, but I do know that it is immensely personal, mystical, and more real than my life. I know that his entire life energy, his mind, his heart, his soul and his body are involved in making sure his disciples are moving toward god. I know that he would do anything to make the slightest bit of progress toward that, no matter what it costs him personally. I know that as a result of carrying the guru function, he is dying and that he is glad to do it. His words on the subject were, "You should only be this lucky."

I know and have been in the presence of him when he has spoken of his master, Osho. The intensity of his devotion to that person is unmatched in anything I have ever seen or been exposed to. It isn't dramatic, it is just true. Osho runs through his veins and because of that he has come home to God. His gratitude is devastating.

Truly, I have spoken from my heart in these discussion, but I was not raised in India and do not have the benefit of their traditions.

I know the spiritual connotations from experience and exposure to a true guru and to his master. If there are other traditional trappings I am unaware of, it will not be reflected in what I say, and I hope you will excuse any offense along those lines.

Gilana | Thu, 02/11/2010 - 06:36
NIDHI PARKASH's picture

> Lastly

Sense gratification leads to hell which seems heaven only to those (Osho etc.) who are not connected to their Self; hence they need big money and beg more bigger materialistic items for their quenching of sensual appetite. The person who himself is not connected to 'DIVINE PROVIDENCE' how can he may give self-realization to others while he has been fully engaged for begging of sensual gratifications from his disciples. Actually, these people give false dream to their disciples in order to make them continue their prey.

NIDHI PARKASH | Thu, 02/11/2010 - 07:40
NIDHI PARKASH's picture

So much crooked thinking

Mr. M. K. Gandhi was a lawyer of his time; who converted outstanding advocates, industrialists/business men/commercial houses, journalists, formers, universities' teachers alongwith their students into the form of dynamic power of truth & non-violence which the power became instrument to throw away the yoke of dependency (slavery); well known as National freedom of India. but you are thinking that he was beggar who begged from Birla, Bajaj, Sarabhai to proof him as beggar in order to put him in the class of kugurus as Osho etc.

NIDHI PARKASH | Thu, 02/11/2010 - 07:24
carlito santo's picture

Depends on the significance of the payment for the teacher

It's not the payment itself that matters but rather the significance of the payment for the teacher.

If the payment is the income source of the teacher, if it is his business, then definitely we shouldn't pay this teacher.

Why? Because his intentions are not pure, they can't be, how can they be when there is another motive? Pure means purely for the benefit of me, the disciple. And in this case, there are deliberate benefits for the teacher also.

carlito santo | Sun, 02/14/2010 - 20:07
not_me's picture

Brilliant

It's not the payment itself which is merely the transfer of a certain energy/matter from one to another but the intentions behind the act that matters.

not_me | Tue, 02/16/2010 - 04:53
Gilana's picture

Judgment

Again - teachers and gurus are not the same thing.

Speaking only to gurus, how can you judge his intentions? Or the significance of anything? Maybe his intention is to test you. Maybe the benefit to you, the disciple, is to part with the greed you feel holding on to your $$$. Or maybe he is testing your intelligence. Or maybe he is looking at your perception of your own impurity--how you weigh and measure?

You make a lot of decisions. Is that wise?

If he is the guru, don't you think he knows what he is doing? Or is your trust the issue?

Example: One of our disciples was asked to part with her only companion, a beloved cat, to come to live at the Ashram. She couldn't find anyone to take the cat. Who would take an older cat that was dependant on medication every month to live? She was afraid, but she made plans to comply. She bowed and obeyed.

The perfect person stepped forward at last and took the cat. He is completely trustworthy and loving. He and the cat are very happy together, and she gets to catsit when he goes on trips.

She earned the priviledge to witness her trust flower.

How can you judge? And what are you losing as a result?

Gilana | Tue, 02/16/2010 - 06:33
not_me's picture

Can be said about anything

"teachers and gurus are not the same thing."

I don't see a difference between gurus and spiritual teachers, those teachers I'm considering here.

"Maybe the benefit to you, the disciple, is to part with the greed you feel holding on to your $$$. Or maybe he is testing your intelligence. Or maybe he is looking at your perception of your own impurity--how you weigh and measure?"

"Maybe" is the best friend of "let be". In the very same way, uou can use "maybe" about anything including murder and rape especially when introducing metaphysical motives.

not_me | Tue, 02/16/2010 - 07:18
Gilana's picture

Response

"I don't see a difference between gurus and spiritual teachers, those teachers I'm considering here."

Teachers inform; masters transform.

"Maybe" is the best friend of "let be". In the very same way, uou can use "maybe" about anything including murder and rape especially when introducing metaphysical motives."

I'm not sure I understand your point?

Gilana | Tue, 02/16/2010 - 16:03
dobro's picture

For me, this thread has

For me, this thread has morphed from the original question 'should gurus get paid?' into gratitude that I'm not a teacher dependent for bare existence on the high number of cheapskates in this thread who hold teachers to a stupidly high standard of non-involvement in practical affairs. Look, I'll make it simple. Gurus have physical bodies which have physical needs, and they have responsibilities sometimes to dependents also, and all this requires money. Where do you suppose the monetary support for this is supposed to come from? Would you rather they manifested the dollars miraculously so that you could claim they hadn't tainted themselves with a vulgar transfer of funds from your pocket to theirs? Would you rather they stopped teaching so that they could devote their energies to meeting their monetary requirements? Would you rather they sold beedies in the streets of Bombay and lived in a slum like Nisargadatta so that you didn't feel any obligation to offer some support? Would you rather you could just take and take and take, and never have to give anything in return?

Grow up.

dobro | Sun, 02/14/2010 - 22:00
joejo's picture

Biksha or seeking alms

Well we have to look at another issue and that is independence of guru. All his body needs were supposed to be few ( monks). He was traditionally expected to fulfill these by seeking alms and traveling. This was to maintain independence. Being a guru is a serious matter while anybody could be a teacher. We will have to make this distinction if we are to understand it in right spirit. Btw Sri Goenka does not charge money for his Vippasana courses.

joejo | Sun, 02/14/2010 - 23:55
Gilana's picture

Hmmm

Maybe it's easier to be a guru in India than it is in the United States or Canada or Europe. Here they have a word for a traveling Sadhu: vagrant.

I went to a Hindu festival about six months ago. As happens frequently at religious festivals, I was approached several times by people who wanted to give me literature. Finally, they one cornered me and I told her the truth, that I was already a disciple. I braced myself, but each of them saluted me and said Namaste. Believe me, that was that first and last time I've ever seen that reaction! Here, most people think you must be (at best) psychologically unbalanced all the way to needing intervention, being accused of cult and pagan worship if you are a disciple. I have been told to keep my kids away from people who were reputed to attend spiritual meetings by some well meaning Christian friends. Some disciples never tell their families or friends for fear of exclusion or worse.

Can you imagine what most people here think about Gurus? Especially if s/he's poor?

I've noticed that the folks from the U.S., Canada and Europe see the difficulty of living without income in these countries.

Gilana | Tue, 02/16/2010 - 04:05
not_me's picture

Misconception

You have a misconception or rather inexperience regarding gurus and consequently a simplistic skeptical approach. You assume a skeptical reality in which there is no paranormal or metaphysical and that gurus and masters anyway have no access to those dimensions and therefore have the worry regarding the physical plane because they have the same means.

You project your existential worries on the gurus.

not_me | Tue, 02/16/2010 - 04:51
Gilana's picture

You might be right

Possibly true - I certainly don't know. Just a simple disciple - could be wrong to assume, but probably not wrong to love or to act on that love.

I do know the desire to serve and take care of what I love -again I assume, but I assume that is in the right direction.

Gilana | Tue, 02/16/2010 - 06:19
joejo's picture

You have no choice but to find Out

Hi Gilana

Sorry but i am taking this liberty to say that since this subject means so much to you there is no choice of assuming things.

You must find out for yourself the reason for your being so passionate about it.

joejo | Tue, 02/16/2010 - 06:28
Gilana's picture

I guess you are right

But I'm passionate about everything to do with God, love, guru, truth! I just spew passion. I'm sure I have lessons and lessons to come.

Thank you for enduring me. You may set me right when I am not (or the guru will do it :) but there is no bowing to untruth.

Gilana | Tue, 02/16/2010 - 06:39
not_me's picture

Psychologists get paid so why gurus not?

Psychologists get paid so why gurus not? The relationship is very similar. If the argument regarding gurus is that the money transaction spoils the dynamics between the two then it should have been the same case also with the shrink, shouldn't it?

not_me | Tue, 02/16/2010 - 04:45
Gilana's picture

Does your Guru truly love you?

The Guru's job is to zero in on what is blocking God out. You can ignore it all you want, but one of our spiritual tasks is to transcend whatever is our "beast". And for many, money is their beast. A person does not avoid getting eaten by a lion by pretending it's not there. You must master it.

If your solution is to meditate while it is eating you, well then, go for it! But everyone I've talked to who tried that route spent most of their time thinking about how to get out of the trap, rather than thinking about God. But more likely than meditation, the path is to learn how to master the beast. Money is the closest beast for many of us.

In times past (and sometimes even now) the Guru tests potential disciples for preparedness for the holy transmissions they will be responsible for receiving. Were they wrong to make a seeker sit in the corner for years until he was deemed ready?

Maybe the guru is charging a fee so that you don't hide in the illusion that poverty is holy. You need to hold your own in the world in order to go to God. Transcending does not mean falling prey to.

"People become attracted to spirituality in the hope it will solve life’s problems and relieve pain and suffering, but it’s not quite that simple. A popular misconception is that spiritual practice will in and of itself resolve psychological issues. Best-selling books advocate that by ignoring our discomfort and focusing on the Light, or on what we wish to manifest, we can get everything we want. This idea of positive thinking, or the law of attraction, can divert us from our real issues.

You can’t make progress on the spiritual path if you’re ignoring your pain. Pain, in fact, is an indication of where you need to grow - by pretending we’re happy all the time, we miss the lessons our suffering and humanity are trying to teach us. As Alan Cohen says in Wisdom of The Heart, 'If you desire to know where your spiritual work lies, look to your emotional pain.'

Failing to discriminate between pseudo-spirituality and true inner transformation, we can get lost for years or life times."

Catherine Auman, MFT (Spiritual Psychologist)

Gilana | Tue, 02/16/2010 - 16:29
Quantum's picture

“by pretending it's not

“by pretending it's not there” seems to repress my negative emotions, and they stick around and cause me unease and stress and wear me out and bring me down.

"People become attracted to spirituality in the hope it will solve life’s problems and relieve pain and suffering.”

This seems to imply that it does not necessarily solve one’s life problems. Maybe it helps some. Well, sitting in a hot tub on a cold clear night doesn’t solve my life’s problems, but it helps me relax.

“A popular misconception is that spiritual practice will in and of itself resolve psychological issues. “

Interesting to know.

“Best-selling books advocate that by ignoring our discomfort and focusing on the Light, or on what we wish to manifest, we can get everything we want. This idea of positive thinking, or the law of attraction, can divert us from our real issues.”

I think so. I still haven’t won the lottery by using my thoughts and feelings as taught in a certain book. Maybe I’m just not using the techniques hard enough, or the right way…LOL.

“You can’t make progress on the spiritual path if you’re ignoring your pain. “

Ignoring my emotional pain is a good way for me to repress them, where they get to continue to do me damage, and continue to cause anxiety.

“Failing to discriminate between pseudo-spirituality and true inner transformation, we can get lost for years or life times."

When it starts to get this complicated, I just focus my attention on my innerbody and hold it there, and just let my mental/emotional drama be. Let it be. And take a walk. Or get a good nights sleep. Then I go to work, on this physical plane, on what causes the pain, and try to fix it. Once fixed, the pain seems to go away. I am finding that a more practical way than spirituality to take care of my pain is to “take care of my stuff.” Example: If it is anxiety over taxes that goes on for weeks, from last week of February to the last week of March….I stop meditating, and guess what? You won’t believe this…..

I put all my stuff together into a folder, and head over to H&R Block. 2 hours later, the pain is gone.

Quantum | Sun, 04/11/2010 - 05:49
Elijah_NatureBoy's picture

In Part, Correct!

We are not to ignore the physical discomforts, when we have them they tell us something is not according to design, provided they come from something like illness. In the case of the lion, above, it tells us the law of karma is at play. When we were a lion we ate someone attempoting to meditate on god to end the situation but we ate them, now it is our turn to be eaten under the same situation.

Spirituality is about self realization, not self gain. To attemp to use a spiritual approach for selfish gain is to misuse spirituality, and it does not work. On the other hand, although money is not an issue in spirituality haveing an intent other than selfish gain would likely provide if to you.

An emotional pain tells us we are not spiritual as we could be concerning the subject matter. To be spiritual is to be in the balance of the situation, to be emotional means you are on one side or the other, not in the middle. Physical pain is the message of something of the flesh being out of harmony and working to restore itself. We do not feel the pain of the cut or bone breaking, only when the body begin the healing process do we feel physical pain.

Your tax situation is a pain caused by your attachment to worldly comforts, fulfilling the world's requirement and the pain left.

Nameste!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Have you questioned your beliefs? Reason the different concepts until all pros and cons are integrated into the 64,800 degrees of your vision.
--Elijah "NatureBoy"--

Elijah_NatureBoy | Sun, 04/11/2010 - 17:20
Quantum's picture

In your are correct in part also.

Gads, this ego cannot stand someone who corrects me in public.

For you info buster, I wasn't advocating ignoring negative emotions. I was being sarcastic. You do know what sarcasm neans don't you?

I was basically responding to Gilana to share with her my opinion that I find no problem with sharing the wealth. I think it'sa good thing.

Don't go jumping into my comment and correcting in front of anyone. Do it private if you must. I didn't ask your opinion anyway. Polite, mature, people do not do that.

Gads I'm so burned, I could if I wanted to seek out every one of your posts and pout somet ing stupid in it about how
"in part you are correct" and then go on and on, based on my own opinions, just the same way you spew *YOUR* opinions about how "some part of your" posts is incorrect or not correct.

Man...get with it.. What's good for you is good for you. Be happy content with your own and let the rest be.antu

-Quantum's VERY irritated EGO.

Quantum | Mon, 04/12/2010 - 01:19
Quantum's picture

I apologize

...publicly too at that.

Elijah, I apologize fot that outburst. That was my ego. Man, it (my ego) has issues.

After I hit send, I started to check my currency trades, and I did what Tolle said, "Feel the emotion fully", and as I did that, I was able to separate myself from it, and even smile a little. Once objective, I started to wonder, "where did that come from?" I don't know Elijah, he can say what he wants, anyone can and does say what they want. SO, what was it that triggered that reaction out of my ego, and who does my ego really want to "get"? And...you know what you suprisingly came ot mind?

My parents. Oh my God. How about that?

Something about them making me mad when I was a kid, and not allowing me to express my anger. They made me repress all my negative feelings telling me not to feel that way. And all this while..specially one of them, I won't say which, continued to really tick me off to the point that any other person would have ...here it is again.

Anyway..

I'm sorry, Broh.

No need to reply. I'm just here to apologize. You didn't deserver that comment from me.

Peace.

Quantum

Quantum | Mon, 04/12/2010 - 01:37
Quantum's picture

I apologize

...publicly too at that.

Elijah, I apologize fot that outburst. That was my ego. Man, it (my ego) has issues.

After I hit send, I started to check my currency trades, and I did what Tolle said, "Feel the emotion fully", and as I did that, I was able to separate myself from it, and even smile a little. Once objective, I started to wonder, "where did that come from?" I don't know Elijah, he can say what he wants, anyone can and does say what they want. SO, what was it that triggered that reaction out of my ego, and who does my ego really want to "get"? And...you know what you suprisingly came ot mind?

My parents. Oh my God. How about that?

Something about them making me mad when I was a kid, and not allowing me to express my anger. They made me repress all my negative feelings telling me not to feel that way. And all this while..specially one of them, I won't say which, continued to really tick me off to the point that any other person would have ...here it is again.

Anyway..

I'm sorry, Broh.

No need to reply. I'm just here to apologize. You didn't deserver that comment from me.

Peace.

Quantum

Quantum | Mon, 04/12/2010 - 01:37
Elijah_NatureBoy's picture

Have to Reply

To see my comment work in you in that growing way it is my duty appreciate your growth. Every word works what it is supposed to, mine worked as they were supposed to. I am pleased that at that moment it caused you to look for the source of your actions and find the cause, now you have the cut off valve and knlow how to prevent or at least stop it if there be a next time.

Nameste,
Elijah
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Have you questioned your beliefs? Reason the different concepts until all pros and cons are integrated into the 64,800 degrees of your vision.
--Elijah "NatureBoy"--

Elijah_NatureBoy | Mon, 04/12/2010 - 12:12
Gilana's picture

Osho says

My bliss if freely available to anybody who has the capacity to appreciate it. However, the world sees things in it's own way. Everything in this world has to be achieved. A price has to paid for it. The bigger the price, the higher your estimate of it. If bliss, ecstacy, joy were free nobody would be able to appreciate their value. For those poor people who understand price but don't understand value, a price must be put on it.

It is out of compassion.

Gilana | Thu, 02/18/2010 - 07:48
Elijah_NatureBoy's picture

Qualified Gugus Require No Money!

How is the guru supposed to live on earth if he doesn't get money?

If one is a qualified guru they know that the way the other animals live can be and once was lived by man. As a teacher of life, they have to know how to live in both, civil and natural settings or are not a gurus. Man are only qualified to teach life when we know both, natural and social life. Only by living the natural life does one experience living in the now, living detached and always being aware of where you are and what you do.

Civilization has cultivated that out of man and replaced it with good and evil rather than when and how to and not to indulge. It has made us dependent upon wants rather than needs. Our cultivation has blinded us to who we are.

Who desire to be taught by someone who does not know life does not depend on money? Certainly not I! That is why I decided to look to nature for the way to live life rather than to a cultivated by civilized man teacher.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Have you questioned your beliefs? Reason the different concepts until all pros and cons are integrated into the 64,800 degrees of your vision.
--Elijah "NatureBoy"--

Elijah_NatureBoy | Mon, 02/22/2010 - 14:58
Gilana's picture

Dear Elijah

Finally! A person who knows!

Listen, I've been wanted to get qualified, but I can't find the agency that issues qualifications for gurus. You seem to know where I can go to get the certification...can you refer me? I'm hoping that it doesn't cost any money, because I sure as heck don't have any.

P.S. The people I'm living with are starting to resent me (silly people), I've got two or three more families set up to take me, but I'm looking for more to put in the pipeline.

P.S.S. There is a park that I live in, in the summertime, but I've heard there are some mountain lions nearby...I subdued the last one with my vibrations, but I'm not sure I can handle a group of them (one or two may not be evolved enough to hear and see, and I'm afraid he may influence the others, you see).

P.S.S.S. I can't move out of Los Angeles back to wild because God says my deciples are here. There weren't that many humans in my last wild area, anyway..do you know of any good parks in the area without mountain lions?

Thanks!

P.S.S.S.S. Last (sorry!) the local police want to see my certification as soon as possible. I could desert the people who need me in order to save myself, but, you know, Karma....

P.S.S.S.S.S. I noticed that you are sitting on brick, not grass or any natural setting.....?

Gilana | Mon, 02/22/2010 - 15:39
Elijah_NatureBoy's picture

The Certification Cost!

The cost is giving up everything civilization has caused us to desire, including money, and living in nature, preferably as a wanderer. Reduce your belongings, other than maybe a change of clothes, to a knife, spoon, cup and bedroll, do your traveling by foot. You must forsake the concept of good (god) and evil (devil) and be expecting to accept both sides of all things, pleasure and pain, bitter and sweet, cold and heat, and all. Once you can accept the opposites, you are a qualified guru.

A simple cost, become simple. However, there are not usually certifications. I became certified after 2 years of wandering a warrant for a traffic violation got me arrested. The policeman who came to get me asked me about my strangeness (not like in the photo yet), when I told him I had been a Preacher in the Baptist church but decided to follow Jesus' teachings and way of life, he got with a judge and the made me a "public minister" with immunity.

P.S.S.S. I can't move out of Los Angeles back to wild because God says my deciples are here. There weren't that many humans in my last wild area, anyway..do you know of any good parks in the area without mountain lions?

I am sitting on the brick steps of the church-house because I was in town. I am there because that is where I am directed to be in order to share my comprehending of life. Mow I am living in a house in Washington, DC and sitting on a park bench across from the White House, when it is warm, for the same reason.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Have you questioned your beliefs? Reason the different concepts until all pros and cons are integrated into the 64,800 degrees of your vision.
--Elijah "NatureBoy"--

Elijah_NatureBoy | Mon, 02/22/2010 - 16:15
Gilana's picture

Hmmm--

Will that work if you are not following Jesus? I'm not Christian...do you think the police officer could make a a "guru" with immunity?

Gilana | Mon, 02/22/2010 - 16:34
Elijah_NatureBoy's picture

I Am Christian Atheist

Since living this life I call myself Christian Atheist after renouncing god's existence in 1980. I still use the term with some people but find it an invalid term.

If what you are saying about how you live your life is convincing they may. I did not tell you the whole story, so if you want to know it, Google Elijah NatureBoy and the first thing to come up is my site, THE BOOK OF ELIJAH: A LETTER TO THE WORLD is my story.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Have you questioned your beliefs? Reason the different concepts until all pros and cons are integrated into the 64,800 degrees of your vision.
--Elijah "NatureBoy"--

Elijah_NatureBoy | Mon, 02/22/2010 - 16:44
Gilana's picture

Thank you

Well, thanks for the advice.

I think we can agree to disagree. Since my assertion is that I know god, I'll say, with love-may god bless you.

By the way, I like your 64,800 degrees of vision. I think we can both fit in there, somewhere.

Gilana | Mon, 02/22/2010 - 16:59
Elijah_NatureBoy's picture

You Are Welcome!

To disagree concerning god is OK, it is not a must until/unless it comes from the heart. It came from my heart so I follow it.

There is a lot more we will agree on than the validity of god we do not. If my vision is correct, eventually you will also but that is not important. The important thing is we get basically the same vision of life, a requirement to make it through the earth's purification and restructuring.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Have you questioned your beliefs? Reason the different concepts until all pros and cons are integrated into the 64,800 degrees of your vision.
--Elijah "NatureBoy"--

Elijah_NatureBoy | Mon, 02/22/2010 - 20:14
Gilana's picture

What IS

You said, "The cost is giving up everything civilization has caused us to desire, including money, and living in nature, preferably as a wanderer."

I say, certainly the desire for comfort and for money as a goal in themselves must be given up if one wants to proceed toward truth. A true test of that must indeed be living as you do. The men and women in the Himalayas have been doing it for centuries. It sounds like you are trying to truly follow Jesus, not as the church says to, but for real, and I bow to the truth in that. It is a way and a test, but I say it's not the necessary test. There are other measures.

When you leave one extreme for the other it's like forgoing one side of the coin. Your attention, however, remains on the coin.

You said, "I am sitting on the brick steps of the church-house because I was in town. I am there because that is where I am directed to be in order to share my comprehending of life. Mow I am living in a house in Washington, DC and sitting on a park bench across from the White House, when it is warm, for the same reason."

Someone paid for those bricks, for the church-house for the house and for the park bench. They are there for your use, but someone's Sadhana established them for you. Maybe an enlightened man got a job, earned money to buy the materials and then placed the brick and morter of those steps you sit on now for your comfort, for your ease, so that you didn't have to worry about it--so that you could live in the wild.

My step sister was a hippy. She went to Berkley and was "natural and free." My step father worked like the capitalist dog (he's an electrician) that he is to pay for it.

I guess that is my question -- who's paying for your trip? The people who feed you, the men and women who built the things you use...they had to work in the system to provide them for you. Since they have given you these gifts you seem to assume that they need your instruction in comprehending life. What would you think if they were all enlightened through their Sadhana?

Ignoring and fighting the fact that life is not a Garden of Eden, doesn't make it a potential Garden of Eden. Preaching that it can be something that it is clearly not is going diametrically against What Is. Going against what is, is going against our nature and allowing limited "Man" to decide what it should be in unlimited existence.

(If you contend that you are God and unlimited, I have some issues for you to resolve for me....a little matter of a problem in the solar system 1 billion light years away is having some troubles...you are in charge of that, aren't you? As we all know, it is affecting me now and I want to discuss some ideas I have to change it....)

Seriously, cooperating with what is, is flowing with the Tao, with nature, with (sorry) God -- the mature man's God, not anything we decide (good, bad, etc) but What Is (whether we like it and approve of it, or not).

Gilana | Tue, 03/02/2010 - 17:31
Elijah_NatureBoy's picture

The Need

The need to give up everything and live in nature is only for those who are qualified to enter everlasting life, it is not for the rest of the world. If a Christian has read the Old Testament they find a constant referral to a remnant is all is expected to be saved, i.e., go into everlasting life. The rest, according to Revelation 20:5, reincarnates into the first resurrection [first incarnating state as man] where they live in the spiritual state (Rev. 21).

Until civilization is over, once one go into nature to discover themselves they are to return to civilization and demonstrate the way with one foot in it and the other in nature, as I am. The straight gate with the narrow path is the edge of the coin, both sides are both broad ways.

If there was no civilization there would be no church houses nor messengers and gurus of the way. Because civilization exists man need someone to show them the way to overcome the world for everlasting life. That is why I am directed to the places I go. Someone paid for this house and computer I am using [although we could have them without money] and they allow my use of it because they respect what I am doing, not at any request from me.

My travel are by foot unless someone invites me to ride or offers to pay my way. I carry sleeper and staff at all times, sometimes it include a tent or tarp for a"lean to", other short, and a few other things. More times than not, someone gives me pants I make into my habit, shorts. That is the universal plan, there will be the sheep who aid "the brethren of chirst" and the goats who ignore or prosecute them. Then when it is their time to become "the brethren of christ" there will be those who do it for them. The cycle to man on earth is without end and reincarnation is a fact.

That is not a problem, it is a condition built into existence designed to deceive man into believing an illusion. Don't you see how the Bible say god hardened the hearts of some, that is because it is not for them to accept the duality of life which allows them to see the reality. Everything has a purpose and those who recognize and search for them, provided it is their time to, will find it and evolve to the next plane. Those who are not the "remnant" are to continue on in the life they are given (Revelation 22:11).
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Have you questioned your beliefs? Reason the different concepts until all pros and cons are integrated into the 64,800 degrees of your vision.
--Elijah "NatureBoy"--

Elijah_NatureBoy | Tue, 03/02/2010 - 18:35
Gilana's picture

The Bible

You are very special.

Gilana | Tue, 03/02/2010 - 18:59
Elijah_NatureBoy's picture

You Honor Me

Thank you for your appreciation of my endeavors!!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Have you questioned your beliefs? Reason the different concepts until all pros and cons are integrated into the 64,800 degrees of your vision.
--Elijah "NatureBoy"--

Elijah_NatureBoy | Tue, 03/02/2010 - 19:18
krishnasamajdar's picture

Guru Nanak , Guru Gobind,

Guru Nanak , Guru Gobind, Guru Ramakrishna Paramhansa never changed any fees. Yet lived in confortable homes Not under trees.When a person is following the path of sadhna, MAYA comes to that person definately , most definately . Wont Maya be subserviant to a enlightened Guru ? No Guru ever had want of money . If Guru's are wanting money , then that person IS like me,and is not, most definately NOT A GURU .Such a person should be called a TEACHER, not Guru . Guru is a sacred word, and seekers must beware of the money seeking persons posing as Guru.

krishnasamajdar | Sat, 02/27/2010 - 00:18
NIDHI PARKASH's picture

Never charged any fee

Money is the missed element in the true link of Guru and His shishya.

NIDHI PARKASH | Sun, 02/28/2010 - 14:16
Elijah_NatureBoy's picture

How is money a missing element?

How can one say money is the missing element when a teacher of the way know the way by which money is not a needed element? Having no money is the element which proves the searcher has found a source of true knowledge.

Man are the only money dependent life type, that suggests anyone dependent on it has not discovered the way. If they have, they may receive money gifts from those who believe they can buy truth or desire not to loose a blessing because of not contributing, but the guru will not be dependent on it.

The adult guru knows their body is the temple in which they dwell to relate to the elements around them. Only through the temple of the physical body does one relate to the material world; only through the temple of the energy/ghost does one relate to what has been termed the spiritual world. An adult guru [one who has integrated the two half temples into the whole] is able to recognize both, temples and communicate with either or both in others.

I am an adolescent, I recognize that truth but have not accomplished adulthood as of yet.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Have you questioned your beliefs? Reason the different concepts until all pros and cons are integrated into the 64,800 degrees of your vision.
--Elijah "NatureBoy"--

Elijah_NatureBoy | Sun, 02/28/2010 - 15:29
NIDHI PARKASH's picture

Money a missing element

It may be reviewed in the views of Jesus Who said, "Money cannot go with God."

NIDHI PARKASH | Sun, 02/28/2010 - 18:04
dobro's picture

I think you got that wrong;

I think you got that wrong; I don't think Jesus ever said that. I do, however, remember him saying something like 'Give what is Caesar's to Caesar; give what is God's to God.'

And next, how do you think Jesus financed his operation? If he wasn't physically holding the purse, then someone in his entourage was. Money's a part of life on earth; it's like food and drink and beds and toilets - it comes with the territory. So, take your pick: pay your Guru, or pay someone who's really close to your Guru, so that they can use the money to support the operation.

dobro | Sun, 02/28/2010 - 18:38
Elijah_NatureBoy's picture

I think He means...

I believe he means where Jesus said in Matthew 6:24, ye cannot serve god and mammon (money)". What he said has the same meaning, only it is not the exct quote.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Have you questioned your beliefs? Reason the different concepts until all pros and cons are integrated into the 64,800 degrees of your vision.
--Elijah "NatureBoy"--

Elijah_NatureBoy | Sun, 02/28/2010 - 19:54
dobro's picture

You don't have to serve

You don't have to serve money in order to fulfill your financial obligations to the world. You just have to take a Bhagavad Gita approach to it. You take care of that part of life cuz it's your duty. Gurus have duties. One of them is to take care of the physical vehicle so that they can teach.

dobro | Sun, 02/28/2010 - 20:28
Elijah_NatureBoy's picture

Many Approaches

To serve money is to seek it, to put forth an effort to obtain it such as requiring it to hear you speak or having a job other than sharing your understanding of life. Any guru doing either of those or other for money things are not a true teacher. No actual guru will serve money in any form of doing something to get it. And I agree, "you don't have to serve it".

The guru's only obligation or duty to the world is to share your observations of misuse of authority. No teacher has any other duty to the world. If they teach truth it would destroy the world. The Bible symbolizes Gurus as serpents or wise man whose teachings opposes everything of the world, thereby, destroying it if such teaching become widely accepted. That is why the world bruises their heads known as killing them, their wisdom will destroy the world.

Should a none money desiring guru become lifted up they will cause world peace by showing every nation how to obtain it. So long as a guru is getting money for their services, the world will leave them alone. Once they teach peace, like it is being done in China now, they become persecuted, little to no money is made through peace and the world thrives off of money.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Have you questioned your beliefs? Reason the different concepts until all pros and cons are integrated into the 64,800 degrees of your vision.
--Elijah "NatureBoy"--

Elijah_NatureBoy | Sun, 02/28/2010 - 20:59
dobro's picture

"So long as a guru is

"So long as a guru is getting money for their services, the world will leave them alone."

Like Eckhart Tolle, Adyashanti and Deepak Chopra, for instance? Or do you simply refuse to admit that those three men are gurus because they get a lot of money for what they do?

"No actual guru will serve money in any form of doing something to get it."

Okay, that's your definition, and mine's different, so we disagree. But here's something - I would rather a teacher charged money for what he was doing in order that the teaching reach me. That's a better situation than the teaching remaining in obscurity, I think.

dobro | Mon, 03/01/2010 - 06:07
NIDHI PARKASH's picture

> I think you got that wrong;

I saw such a quote on gurusfeet.com yesterday and remembering(not word to word) I quoted it but it may be perhaps words have a little altered due to non-remembering word to word quote; however, meaning conveying should have been accurate. Hence see other quote which runs as "The love of money is the root of all evil."-------Bible: 1 Timothy,6.10. In continuation of yesterday quote of Jesus along-with above one brood other quote of Jesus as below:-
"If, therefore, thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light. All these three quotes have spiritual significance and here Jesus highlights that eternal and spiritual dimension is more important than the temporal one. Those who choose to follow His teachings will make physical sacrifices for spiritual rewards. Money pertains to temporal as well as physical aspect of human beings; which the money have no any value when we come the physical aspect of other creatures as animals and birds etc. but these animals and birds have the same love which human beings have also and this is the link of God among all of us unaffected by the money. Money is the social, legal and mutually accepted instrument for exchange of commodities in the society of human beings and also a financial nerve of the human civilization which flows through the various agencies as debits as well as credits etc. for keeping the society integrated.
Now, both the theories must have to be very clear to you but I hereby quote one more from Guru Nanak for further elucidation as below:-
Guru Nanak says, "Even kings and emperors with heaps of wealth and vast dominion cannot compare with an ant filled with the love of God." Why the God-men are saying the same thing in all religions? And certainly there is some kind of most important point that is money cannot go with God because it is not the way of God, the way to God, the way by God.

NIDHI PARKASH | Mon, 03/01/2010 - 17:45
dobro's picture

Guru Nanak says: "Even kings

Guru Nanak says: "Even kings and emperors with heaps of wealth and vast dominion cannot compare with an ant filled with the love of God."

Guru Nanak does not say: "Real Gurus don't charge money."

Interpret scriptures the way you want to.

dobro | Mon, 03/01/2010 - 21:15
NIDHI PARKASH's picture

> Guru Nanak says: even kings

Even, it is also not said that Guru should charge money.

NIDHI PARKASH | Tue, 03/02/2010 - 14:57
Gilana's picture

You said, "I am an

You said, "I am an adolescent, I recognize that truth but have not accomplished adulthood as of yet."

I have never really been or done something that did not look different to me before I did it. Kindergarden looked like it would be a different thing; elementary school looked like it would be a different thing; swimming looked like it would be a different thing; riding a bike looked like it would be a different thing than it turned out to be once I did it.

I suggest you don't know yet. I would welcome your report when you do know; once you are an adult. I welcome it because you seem like a true and sincere seeker. I look forward to hearing the report of the finder.

Until then, you might want to keep more of an open mind. We don't know for sure. Until I am a guru (don't hold your breath) I don't know for sure. So judging, condeming, holding out that you know for sure is childish. Love is better.

Gilana | Sun, 02/28/2010 - 21:26
Elijah_NatureBoy's picture

I Condemn None

I condemn no acts of any man, every act has it purpose in maintaining the cycles of man on earth. I state facts as one who have been on both sides of the subject. Until one has been on both sides, found the joining of them and dwell therein they are not a guru of truth but are usually self serving teachers.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Have you questioned your beliefs? Reason the different concepts until all pros and cons are integrated into the 64,800 degrees of your vision.
--Elijah "NatureBoy"--

Elijah_NatureBoy | Mon, 03/01/2010 - 23:18
Elijah_NatureBoy's picture

Reaching A Guru

You said "I would rather a teacher charged money for what he was doing in order that the teaching reach me."

Do you not know how to find where a Guru is and go to it and have it teach you what it has? If it is a group of you wanting to hear the teachings you could provide a place for a group meeting where he can answer your questions.

Presently, I am in Washington, DC spending much time in Lafayette Park, across from the White House, where I have great sharing times. My writings are online for one to read by Googling Elijah NatureBoy, any questions or communications one want to make with me they can find there also.
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Have you questioned your beliefs? Reason the different concepts until all pros and cons are integrated into the 64,800 degrees of your vision.
--Elijah "NatureBoy"--

Elijah_NatureBoy | Tue, 03/02/2010 - 13:48
Quantum's picture

Pay if you want to pay, cause what goes around comes around...

I would pay because I want to help defray the costs. I usually put something in the collection basket because I feel sorry for the group that needs to pay rental fees for the room, and to help pay for the zabutons and zafus they provide for us to sit on. Nice ones too.

Maybe it's my imagination, but when I give money away, it seems to come back to me. It's just my imagination, perhaps. But I'm sticking with that practice cause it seems to have been sustaining me thus far. In any event, I don't want to mess with the delicate balance...something seems to be working out so far, and giving is just one element in the mix. I'm afraid to touch and remove certain elements to see removal would collapse my world.

I give to those on the street who are physically stronger than others who are working for a living...sometimes out of nothing more than compassion, and seeing myself in them.

Any Gilana, give if it comes from your heart.

And bless you for your kindless.

Quantum | Sun, 04/11/2010 - 05:19
Quantum's picture

Darn invisible "pre-post" typos.

I meant "kindness."

This edit window is really starting to bug me. I literally do not see any typos until after I post the message. Then they are in plain sight.

Quantum | Sun, 04/11/2010 - 05:23
Elijah_NatureBoy's picture

Defraying Cost

Most people pay to defray cost but Gurus have little to no costs. If they are in a building it is because someone provided it for them, if a basket is passed it is to defray their cost, he gets nothing from it.

No, it is not your imagination, to give is to get in return. Of the gifts I receive when I find others in need I usually give to them. More times than not, it comes right back. One of Jesus' parables is the separating of sheep from goats. What happens is there are those who are designed to aid the "seekers" in one incarnation and receive from others prepared to aid seekers in another, Karema at work.

Sometimes, a sheep is destined to become a seeker in the same lifetime, they gave before being the seeker then after entering the path are the receivers, but even then do not cease to give to others.

You closed with the key, "give if it comes from the heart" knowingly. Everything anyone does is from the heart, but only a few know it.

Nameste!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Have you questioned your beliefs? Reason the different concepts until all pros and cons are integrated into the 64,800 degrees of your vision.
--Elijah "NatureBoy"-

Elijah_NatureBoy | Sun, 04/11/2010 - 16:47
natha simha's picture

selling spiritual knowledge

a real guru does not have the idea of him or her teaching you, for not having the anavam (selfish ego).

so there is no point of saying that the guru gets frustrated teaching the ignoramus.

for a guru can only teach the ignorant, can he teach the enlightened?

the ignorant are imperfect by nature. so what is the point of the guru complaining, saying he needs a wage to teach?

there are great gurus like Nisargadatta who did normal work like any others to subsist.

the Iraivan (god) is in everyone. it is by commission of the Iraivan that men teach. and spiritual knowledge is obtained from the Iraivan out of its boundless love and grace.

love has no price.

so to be a professional guru to earn a living will never be the motive of gaining jnanam.

the true guru doesn't even have the idea that he is a guru. he treats himself equal with all.

there are gurus who have taken sannyasa. some have led householder lives. the sannyasis due to not working, they subsist by begging. the people donate to the sannyasis who treat all gifts equally. more so they are only supposed to take enough for their meager needs.

the householder lives his life just like any other. how can he take money from others to further the interest of his family members? most probably he will earn as necessary to support them and devote the rest of the time to rest in his Self.

when you are a seeker, you devote time to seek the truth. when you have found the truth, do you use your time to relish it or go hither and tither? devotees come on their own accord to the ripe souls.

sometimes by the divine will, an ashram comes around them, and people gather. but to say that they actively participate in soliciting money is most absurd.

spiritual knowledge is like one's own mother.

selling spirituality is like prostituting one's own mother.

natha simha | Thu, 04/15/2010 - 09:32
Gilana's picture

Divisions

I really appreciate being able to respond to your posts—I am talking to myself as much or more than I am talking to anyone else.

May I please point out that some of the responses here are from traditional methods and concepts that have been accepted by certain cultures? Is it possible that your responses have a lot to do with your culture, not with living spirituality?

The ideas and concepts that you have outlined must work in India. But to generalize those rules for the rest of humanity is unfair and unworkable. Specifically they are untrue in the United States.

Beggars of any type are unwelcome in this country. Either you are "productive" or you are encouraged to "go home," which usually means to your country of origin. Spirituality is not treated with respect--making money, buying stuff, being Christian, and watching TV is the cultural ideal. There is an old saying here, "You get what you pay for." It is a deeply embedded idea.

Sure you could say that all spiritual people should go to India. I think that would overload the country even more. Isn't it time the entire world became spiritually advanced? Thoughts like those divide the world even more.

But India's rules will not work in other places, so it is my suggestion that flexibility is required. If "spiritual" people can't be flexible with each other in their search for truth, I can't see any hope in asking support from people who have not yet seen the value of spirituality. The mainstream culture in the United States is very happy with their Judeo-Christian culture--they see absolutely no need to change and it seems to be working just fine for them.

It is always my assumption that the more advanced seeker of truth will be more open-minded toward the inflexibility of the less advanced. Therefore, I would expect those in India to be supportive of those in other countries in finding their way to the truth. Which is why it always surprises me that Osho is so very derided. He found a bridge, a way to communicate, and thousands used it.

But in your response, dogma appears more important than real knowing. Rules are great if they are a help, but as my master says "that is not the way the heart would talk."

My questions are: Do you so mis-trust the living God and yourselves that you must adhere to rules and stories given to you long ago through some other human being who interpreted them from the then living God? I have also heard the story of the disciple and the fake Guru...seems that the disciple, because of his faith, achieved anyway—or maybe even because of the false Guru.

I say, let people follow their hearts and make mistakes and readjust. I know we fear for them...I have children and there is nobody worse than me in attempting to prevent them from making mistakes. (Don't get me started there!) But for sincere seekers, God will assist them...your rules may be making it harder for God to show them the way that is right for them.

What I am really saying is:

1. There are no rules that You can apply to assure yourself that someone is a true Guru. Your heart is the only true measure (sorry scriptures, but it's true.)

2. Going by rules and tradition is defying the living God.

3. In this age, there are going to be a lot of weird Gurus. The world needs them and they are going to have to conform to a lot of weird people and conditions. They are going to look unconventional, not traditional, and scary. But so does God.

4. If we are striving for no ego, we have to let God's will happen and give up our own ideas. Even if they conflict with the Scriptures because, in my experience, it makes God very angry to get pinned down to rules and expectations. Existence usually retaliates in the most horrid ways.

5. If the only way to get spirituality is by prostituting your own mother, do it. Didn't somebody quote from the Gita recently about not being attached, even to your own family?

6. MOST IMPORTANT: Gurus do not teach, they transform.

Teaching is nice, with books and classrooms and discussions and exchange of ideas.

Transformation is messy and it rips everything you have so carefully organized apart including dogma. It's volcanic, and ugly and disruptive and it will skin you alive, and keep going while you scream. Why do you think they call it a fire? Fires burn. Bow down and surrender your ideas as quick as you can because God will do anything to get you.

And it will hurt if you cling, like a bandaid that doesn't "want" to come off, or hair that doesn't "want" to be combed.

Gilana | Thu, 04/15/2010 - 17:10
PranaBeats's picture

Many sides...

Hello, this is my first post here. I wished to add another perspective to this polarised discussion where either the guru receives money and is corrupt/fake or he receives money because it's OK to be rich.

I have never read Buddha (for example) say it is wrong for another Buddha to charge money. What he does say is that a true master doesn't seek "material reward". There is a major difference between both.

I can really only speak of my experience with Tony Samara, with whom I have worked closely for many years now. He charges for his seminars and retreats, not a fortune, but he does. He sells products, he doesn't push them or has any advertising scheme, but he does.

Why?

I think there are many levels to this but on an obvious level, he began to charge for retreats and seminars when he realised that rich people gave pebbles and poor people gave all they had. He felt, after working for many years by donation only, that this was not a fair practice and so began to ask for a fixed amount. To this day, anyone who didn't have the money to pay and has asked him directly to participate has been accepted either for free or through a work exchange program.

Regarding products, before his awakening, Tony Samara had been formally initiated as a shaman. Part of his path and process is to help people heal through natural ways and this endures to this day. The products he sells are all related to deep healing through natural medicine as he has practiced for many years. They are available not to make money but to serve a purpose of bringing more light into our bodies.

Tony Samara is married and has four children. He lives a simple life, in a simple apartment, no luxuries, no cars... well just one for the whole ashram.

This is to clear the obvious aspect.

On a deeper layer, I believe that a guru who DOESN'T work with money, is missing out on the most important karmic aspect of our society today. Humans' greatest material attachments are money and food. If a guru is not playing around with his disciples and mirroring them regarding these giant mountains of karma, then, in my opinion, he or she isn't truly exploring all the possibilities to help people become aware of their limitations.

There is nothing like direct experience through a direct mirror. I have seen many neuroses played out because of people thinking they had to pay to attend a retreat without even being interested in spiritual work!

Manifested mirrors are a blessing. Asking for people to invest in themselves is a very different thing than to seek "material reward".

It is synchronistic that I reply to this today as this morning's satsang was very connected to the money theme. It is free to watch :) I won't advertise the website as anyone who wants can easily find it and will be available in video on Thursday 22.

Live satsangs are also free and weekly on Wednesdays.

Love

PranaBeats | Wed, 04/21/2010 - 15:40
Surya Kumar Mishra's picture

Should Gurus get paid

No not at all.
They are free from money and material life.
They bless you and will bestow you money and materials, if you desire in plenty.
The gurus bless you without any reason.
His blessings are not asked for, but he blesses.
He looks after your well being like a mother cow who has just delivered a baby.

Surya Kumar Mishra | Wed, 05/05/2010 - 05:53
Elijah_NatureBoy's picture

True Only If...

Your statement is true so long as one isn't conscious of their own being. When one recognize they are, first and foremost, the ghost [mind energy combination] which gives function to the body and seeks to integrate itself with the body, they should surrender to it for all of it's instructions.

When they recognize only external teachers, such a gurus will manifest the characteristics you provided.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Have you questioned your beliefs? Reason the different concepts until all pros and cons are integrated into the 64,800 degrees of your vision.
--Elijah "The NatureBoy"--

Elijah_NatureBoy | Mon, 08/09/2010 - 22:25
Elijah_NatureBoy's picture

A Guru's Living!

*How is the guru supposed to live on earth if he doesn't get money* is your question.

As a guru of The Way I looked to the rest of the self reproducing environment to discover it. What it presented was the environment has already provided our every need, we are only required to get what we need when we need it and our needs will always be there for us when needed.

Where lies the problem?

We have been conditioned to reject half of almost every category as evil and the other as good therefore we consider the things we to disapprove of as harmful when the harm is because of never or over indulging causing our bodies underdevelopment. The over indulgence creates a dependence and the over rejections becomes harmful, including heat dependency and cold rejecting, sweet dependency and bitter rejecting and the like.

Therefore, money is something we have never not known how to do without at any time in our lives so we accept it as a need rather than the means of obtaining our conditioned desires.

--Elijah "NatureBoy"--
Presenting SEEDS OF LIFE @
http://prop1.org/protest/elijah/nature.htm

Elijah_NatureBoy | Thu, 03/01/2012 - 14:11
Gilana's picture

Okay...

1. If you are enlightened, what can you not have? Look at the crazy wisdom teachers...they certainly push the boundaries much further than getting money.

2. Most people in the western world will give ANYTHING, for God. except their money. Then the hair goes up on the back of their necks.

3. If a teacher or guru wants the attention of the masses, he better be able to live with them. Be able to say he has had experience close to theirs. Understands. Those gurus on the fringe may or may not be real...but like attracts like.

Since gurus really have no preferences, is there an aversion to money? It's only when you are suspicious that a person is not enlightened, when they are "just trying to get your money," that you have a problem with it.

True gurus always provoke. They create uproar. They push your buttons. But the real question always is: How and why are you reacting?

Gilana | Fri, 03/02/2012 - 02:20
Elijah_NatureBoy's picture

Your Questions!

1) There is no thing an enlighten one can not have nor can not do, what they determine is when it is appropriate to have or do everything and are reminded of the law of Karma as they do whatever they do. What they do is not to be for themselves but to benefit the most people, my having this computer is an example, it has been provided to me so I can reach a larger mass than waiting for a few to come to me. However, whenever it's eliminated I accept it as having fulfilled my requirement for it.

2) Giving anything for god doesn't get anyone the knowledge of the god we already are. Jesus gave us the concept of being born again while the self-reproducing environment, called nature, provides us with the metamorphosis as the means of coming into the knowledge that we are god, being a plural word, however, we each are one small entity in existence that most people consider god to be. An example is your blood is you yet it is made up of the liquid and the red and white cells.

3) No one is qualified to consider themselves a guru unless they have first lived like everyone else, although not all of them in this one incarnation.

Those who push buttons and the like are not a spirit certified guru except when they are doing it with someone who know them as a very close friend. Another exception is when one is attempting to put them down, then they have the wisdom to touch something in them to make them, so to speak, run away and hide. Therefore, those who do the things you named, in general, are those who they or someone else has called them guru.

--Elijah "NatureBoy"--
Presenting SEEDS OF LIFE @
http://prop1.org/protest/elijah/nature.htm

Elijah_NatureBoy | Mon, 01/13/2014 - 14:42
jay1's picture

Should gurus get paid?

No, gurus should not get paid for wisdom or truth. This is not even a debate for me.

I would never and have never consulted the 'wisdom' of those who are conscious about their wisdom and market and sell it - and never would. The very act of consciousness and pride in ones wisdom, loses it.

Let gurus be carpenters, teachers, plumbers, hairdressers, beauticians, window cleaners and let them be paid for their skill within society. Let their wisdom and truth, for which they are simply a conduit, remember, always be free. If they are a true guru, they are humbled by the energy that flows through them and it forces them to their knees. They are happy to work at a skilled craft or trade to make their bread and even happier to help others. If they aren't, then they aren't ready for such a title.

To pay a guru for his/her truth is the same as paying someone for sex. You are as culpable as they are in tempting them into quantifying the unquantifiable. No-one can judge the value of alleged wisdom other than time itself and it can only be judged by the change(s) that may subsequently occur.

The same small-visioned argument is made for poor people forced into prostitution - how can they live otherwise? How can they feed themselves? They get another job is how. A guru is not a job. Your sexual identity is not a job and your ethical identity is not a job. You get a job and you ARE your being.

jay1 | Mon, 01/13/2014 - 13:53
Elijah_NatureBoy's picture

Very well said,

Very well said, brother.

--Elijah "NatureBoy"--
Presenting SEEDS OF LIFE @
http://prop1.org/protest/elijah/nature.htm

Elijah_NatureBoy | Mon, 01/13/2014 - 14:46
shawcharles's picture

truth is free

Papaji said take no money for teaching/satsang
Nisaragadatta took not one paise also over decades
Ramana Maharshi gave totally free satsang for decades.
Shri Ramakant Maharaj,(20 years direct disciple of Shri Nisargadatta Maharaj), quoted yesterday, 13th January whilst teaching in Nashik, India:
"In our lineage,(Navnath Inchegiri Sampradaya) Bhausaheb Maharaj strictly instructed all disciples not to expect/demand money from any devotee - knowledge is free, no marketing, no commercialization of knowledge."
Also the great guru Shri Siddharameshwar Maharaj of this lineage stressed the importance of all teaching being free of charge.
Satsang/truth is contaminated by money, it is no longer pure.
The money merchants of the neo movement have degraded truth, and made it an ego issue ie for their own gratification and material comfort.

shawcharles | Tue, 01/14/2014 - 10:24
J.G. Swami Vishnupada's picture

Please accept my humble

Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Sri Guru and Gauranga! I can only speak for myself and how I approach this subject. As a guru is supposed to be in the renounced order of life, if a group of his or her disciples voluntarily wishes to provide a place to live, food to eat, and clothing- this is fine as the guru in turn should not be attached to these things, nor demand opulence. The guru should be satisfied with the simple just as equally as with the more lavish, and should pursue neither. They are to be used for the service of God and not seen as possessions. If a guru is demanding money for spirituality, this is a serious offense. We do well to avoid such mayavadi types.

Hare Krsna,
J.G. Swami Vishnupada

J.G. Swami Vish... | Fri, 02/14/2014 - 23:02
SON OF GOD's picture

False Guru

Correct brother..Actually one can attain wisdom and self-realization without any Guru intervention.
We can follow the the path of Ekalavya in Mahabaratha Epic. Because nowadays false Guru are growing widely. Gurus and spiritual teachers are popping up left and right. Many of them seem to provide an easy way out of the voids many people feel they have within their lives and as a result these gurus and teachers make a ridiculously massive amount of money…even earning social ranks akin to being glamorous superstars. This is very dangerous in that it can negatively affect the perception of legitimacy of the entire spiritual community and all that it encompasses.
Jesus Christ spoke about false guru. "Watch out for false prophets, they come to you looking like sheep on the outside but they are really like wild wolves on inside"
What a beautiful verses from Jesus. We have to understand the divine power of ourselves. Its inherent in ourselves. Rishi Dattaatreya had 24 guru include human and non-human such as beast ,earth, fire, water, sky, air, birds, insects because he learned lesson from their lives. ANY HUMAN BEING IMPART YOU ANY KNOWLEDGE, SPIRITUAL OR MATERIAL IS YOUR GURU.
A real guru is a giver because he depends on God only.
“Nothing in the world can purify
As powerfully as wisdom
Practiced in yoga, you will find
This wisdom within yourself” -Gita 4 Verses 38

It doesn’t meant that one not necessary to find Guru but people humble opinion is please find the real Guru who has seen the truth.

“Find a wise teacher, honour him,
Ask him your question, serve him
Someone who has seen the truth
Will guide you on the path to wisdom” - Gita 4 verses 34

We have numerous holy scripture in Hinduism namely Bhagavad Gita, the most widely read by people all around the world. It’s simply guides his human being to the path of wisdom. A beautiful verses for “I never can tire of hearing your life-giving, honey sweet words”. (10.18). And also we can read Holy Bible, Holy Quran and many more holy scripture in all religion as our manual for reach Almighty God the Cosmic Creator.

“Let noble thoughts come to us from everywhere” (Rigveda 1.89.01)

Guru Nanak said, “ The best of all efforts is to always remember and repeat the name of God within the temple of your heart”….

Thank You and Almighty God bless you…

SON OF GOD | Tue, 04/15/2014 - 17:06
Elijah_NatureBoy's picture

The Guru's Pay!

In agreement with what you said, it has been my experience that every revealer of information is an instructor but the actual guru or teacher is one's inner self leading one to objectively observe, participate and reason with the various outcomes relative to all other lifes on earth. Anyone who impart their realization is just that, a advisor of their life findings, the teacher is what is often termed one's high self whose pay is the wisdom of the matter and called enlightenment.

--Elijah "NatureBoy"--
Presenting SEEDS OF LIFE @
http://prop1.org/protest/elijah/nature.htm

Elijah_NatureBoy | Tue, 04/15/2014 - 17:55
SON OF GOD's picture

Guru

"Oh Mighty Lord,of countless wealth. i will not sell Thee for any prices".. (Rigveda 8-01-05)..HE is guide and giver but not a taker..

SON OF GOD | Mon, 04/14/2014 - 07:59
Gilana's picture

Uh-huh

Yeah.

So anybody live in the United States?

Different ballgame here and now, guys.

(Different ballgame means: no longer the 1st century. Also United States demands money and lots of it. Paid = his followers giving money for his food and lodging.)

P.S. Real spirituality requires response to "what is." Sticking with old ideas isn't spiritual - it's unintelligent.

Story: A woman because a disciple of a master and began meditating in the Buddhist tradition. The clients who frequented her shop began to complain and question why a Buddhist practitioner would charge them so much. Her master said to reply: You must have confused practicing Buddhism with practicing stupidity.

The world is the world. It is not separate from the Divine. It has rules. Get used to them and you are closer to the Divine.

Gilana | Mon, 04/14/2014 - 15:53
nathan's picture

I'm not sure I understand

I'm not sure I understand what you are trying to say - if we were following your advise we should have got used, for example, to Hitler, Mussolini and Stalin in order to be closer to the divine... The world is the world and these three were not separate from the divine...

I don't think it's just a different ballgame in the US, it is just that in the US, new age, neo advaita, false notions of enlightenment and the other populist distortions of spirituality are more widespread and dominant and are effected by the product-based commercial-based American culture.

"What is" is not a replacement for common sense.

nathan | Mon, 04/14/2014 - 16:21
Gilana's picture

darlin...

I think you do understand.

Nathan.

Common sense is the ability to respond What Is. And you aren't showing any.

Money is not evil. Money is the symbol of energy in the relative world. If you love something (truth for instance) water it, give it attention, give it energy. Water it with whatever you have to give and what it wants and needs to grow. Give what you have to give - what it has told you it wants from you.

A baby crying for milk needs milk! A full baby spits milk out. Mothers are trained by their children.

What is so difficult here? The only possible barrier to understanding is your own Greed. Hoarding. Unwillingness.

And slamming Americans isn't very spiritual, Nathan. it's greedy. ("we're better than you are"...Greedy) at least you are Consistent. But watch out - consistency is slow death, because everything that is alive changes.

Gilana | Mon, 04/14/2014 - 16:41
jay1's picture

You are right, Gilana.

You are right, money is not evil. Neither are guns. Neither is crack cocaine. Neither are fishnet stockings. Neither is white sugar. Neither is mined gold. Neither is an ashtray.

Some may say they are all inanimate piles of formed dust. Incapable some may say, of intent.

But the intent of their production or manufacture is clear to most of us.

We 'know' the purpose of a gun is to fire and shoot...something. And we know the intent and purpose of money is to purchase a commodity which we weigh with the value of the sum. £1 therefore is low value. £1million is high value. How much is your guru worth?

Mine is priceless. And mine earns his/her wage by their trade, their wisdom is their being.

If my guru were so helpless in society that they have not negotiated the maze of self-discipline required to live authentically 'by Ceasar' whilst being an open conduit of truth, then I'm not sure how they can help me.

Your gurus, perhaps Gilana, are helpless and perhaps need you to support them so that they can live at all in your America (and perhaps there are many Americas...)and so I see how you are so protective and defensive of their needs. And in this you are admirable - as a parent of a child. You therefore must choose your 'what is' focus and your helpless gurus who need you, will, dare I say, materialise accordingly...

...but allow yourself to pretend that there are other types of guru... those that don't need anything from you. They are busy working at jobs, (just imagine!) And audiences find them, not the other way round. And they feed their own happy, little faces! Bless, 'em. And God, indeed, Bless America!!

jay1 | Fri, 04/25/2014 - 12:26
Gilana's picture

Hi Jay...1

I'd like to teach you something that my own guru taught me -

You are very intelligent. Well written post. Certainly wiser than I. Blessing and best wishes on your spiritual journey.

Gilana | Sat, 04/26/2014 - 05:38
Elijah_NatureBoy's picture

In Agreenent

Gilana,
You presented yourself completely, a job well done.

I'm a guru and United Statesman who lived as a nomad for over 35 years and never charged anything but was never without needs, and my only wants were, and still is, my needs. Although my destiny has caused me to return to the edge of civilize living since 2009 I still have not to ask for anything. Prior to becoming the nomad I had worked 15 years so when it became time for me to live on the edge of civilization, 2013, I had enough working time to get a pauper's retirement check and assistance from Washington, DC to have a one room efficiency place. Yet, I had no need to ask, it was presented to me and I accepted it. Now I only want to fulfill this task so I can become a world wide nomad rather than just the north American one I was.

--Elijah "NatureBoy"--
Presenting SEEDS OF LIFE @
http://prop1.org/protest/elijah/nature.htm

Elijah_NatureBoy | Sat, 04/26/2014 - 11:37
Gilana's picture

Hi Elijah nature boy,

You are just as intelligent as Jay 1!

Gilana | Sat, 04/26/2014 - 19:01
Elijah_NatureBoy's picture

Requires An Explanation.

I don't understand you because, hopefully, I'm not intelligent but wise, do give me something to feed on in revealing if I'm intelligent or wise.

--Elijah "NatureBoy"--
Presenting SEEDS OF LIFE @
http://prop1.org/protest/elijah/nature.htm

Elijah_NatureBoy | Sat, 04/26/2014 - 22:17
Gilana's picture

Intelligence

Jay 1 (or lady) who commented before you.

Gilana | Sun, 04/27/2014 - 06:47
J.G. Swami Vishnupada's picture

Evil

It is true that money is not evil. However, the desire for riches works against spiritual life. Even Lord Jesus said, "You cannot serve God and money." The thrust of the question was whether a guru who seeks money for teaching is doing something wrong. The teachings should always be freely given. Those who can afford to support the mission of the guru should do so. Those who cannot monetarily support the mission can support it by the use of their talents, time, and energy. There is no need for a wealthy guru.

Hare Krsna,
J.G. Swami Vishnupada

J.G. Swami Vish... | Sat, 05/10/2014 - 23:11
Gilana's picture

Judgment

So many conditions.

So all of the wise people here get to say what a Guru can do, can have, can be like?

Milarepa.

Gilana | Sun, 05/11/2014 - 00:24
Nathyogi's picture

Re: Should Gurus get paid?

If a Guru asks or demands for money, donation or charity is not a Guru but a beggar.
You are not supposed to worry about Guru how he lives or maintains his life.
Truth protects those who practice truth.
A true disciple serves his Guru according to his capacity without asking.
The services of a Guru cannot be equated with money. This is not a business.
One must feel blessed and thankful to God for giving an opputunity to serve his Guru.
God is more pleased if we serve our Guru than Him.

Nathyogi | Wed, 08/13/2014 - 05:30