Is a living guru necessary?

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The following comments were posted originally in the blog Importance of Baba's Punya Tithi but the author asked to remove them from his blog post as he felt they deviated from the original subject.

We think the comments have value as they discuss the important issue of whether a living guru is necessary for evolving spiritually. Therefore we opened this new forum thread and moved the comments to here.

You are welcome to continue the discussion and post your opinion on the subject.



rvin6's picture

You Must Have A Living Guru..

In my perception, it is very, very important. The greatest danger on the spiritual path is self-deception. The student can deceive or hypnotise himself into believing anything. I have heard people talking about ‘the oneness of all things’ after reading just one book. They start to believe that they know! It is so hard to tell them that spirituality starts where words end. Spirituality is not about intellectual but energetic transformation.
A lot of patience, persistence and grace are required. Even ‘senior’ meditators can fall into this trap of false knowing. They are so eager to finish their journey quickly and become gurus that they fool themselves. That is why a guide or a guru is so important. Only a being who is more evolved can see where the lesser evolved being is stuck. You need the presence of a person who can see more than you, further than you, more clearly than you. Unfortunately, even though the master sees and shares, it is not certain that his message will be received. The master’s work is subtle and complex. But what makes his impossible work possible is that he is not doing anything! He is no longer the ‘doer’. He is simply a ‘catalytic agent’ in whose presence miraculous and mysterious events just happen.
The guru alone cannot do anything. It is the disciple’s thirst, his passion for truth, his dogged determination, and above all his trust in his master that makes the magic happen. All said and done, if you are lucky enough to find a living master, stick with him! It seems it is far better if the disciple maintains some distance between himself and the master.
That definitely has its advantages. When you see the master from a distance, sitting on a podium and giving a talk, the relationship between a master and disciple remains clear. The disciple finds it easier to retain his sense of love and respect. The other way is far more dangerous, almost like walking on a tightrope at all times. The journey gets far more intense, but probably faster as well. When the master offers his physical proximity to you, at some level he has seen you worthy of the challenge. Spending so much time in the presence of the master is a huge blessing. It is like ‘spiritual sunbathing’ - it is an invisible and mysterious process of energy transmission that has the capacity to transform your life. This is because his presence is a powerful healing force, a continuous wake-up call.
Here again, the disciple has to be careful. It is quite easy to fall ‘asleep’, and start taking things for granted. The disciple, instead of feeling grateful, starts feeling special and superior, and his ego becomes bigger than Mt Everest!
At that time, you can be sure that an existential ‘kick’ is on its way. It is nature’s way of bringing you back to reality, showing you your true place.

So when you get a chance to be physically close to a master, be thankful. Make sure you thank God and the guru for giving you the chance. And pray for the wisdom and the humility to remain worthy of this divine relationship. For at the end of your life, this is probably the one relationship that will have made all the difference.

I would like to thank my guru His Divine Grace YOGA JNANA SITTHAR OM SRI RAJAYOGA GURU for everything in my life.

rvin6 | Sat, 07/16/2011 - 20:55
4d-don's picture

ONE-ness... Thank ONE some are into ONE'ness ...not ONLY two!

Hi rvin6...

You say:

The student can deceive or hypnotise himself into believing anything. I have heard people talking about ‘the oneness of all things’ after reading just one book. They start to believe that they know! It is so hard to tell them that spirituality starts where words end. Spirituality is not about intellectual but energetic transformation.

...

Would you know the name of the "person" who talks as if they know after reading just one book, do you? Or even the name of the BOOK? We would all like to know ... So we can talk about ONE-ness, not divisiveness or duality... ONE is what SPIRIT or SPIRITUALITY is right? Not "spirits", or magic, or SPIRITUALISM or SPIRITISM?

It's (your put-down) just a way to put down other's ideas so you can sell your own idea ... right? It's a fantasy or a "tall-tale" or your "magic"? We don't see you, right?? WOW!! ... just like one is taught at the Chamber of Commerce (public speaking course)... That does not come from your guru does it? Or is he another "businessman" trying to get his "piece of the pie", with magic, or "mystery", "spirit transmission" etc...

If you really know some who reads about ONE-ness (or reads at all), then steer him/her to this site ... I'm sure it would balance the "sales" gimmick of the "disciples" of one or another "guru". Gimmicks also taught at the "chambers of commerce" businessmen's luncheons.

If your religion is mostly "magic" and "MYSTERY" and not ONE or ONE-ness, then I alert all about such groups where the structure (pyramid) is there to "kick" the seekers onto the right path... the path of "success" and achievement, DOING obviously, but is it the path of BEING ...

You use WORDS and yet you attempt to stop others from expressing their ideas, by such lowly PLOYS ... "that reminds me of the swampland I bought in Florida" ... All made up of course ...

Let's try numbers instead of words: like ONE. Or ALL (a collective ONE-ness) ... Let's talk REALITY not fantasy and magic. Physics also talks ONE ... Grand Unified Theory (GUT), Theory of ONE (TOE) and of UNI-fying all the FORCES as well as all the elements into a ONE-ness.

Speak of ONE-ness also or does your GURU not reach SPIRIT and/or ONE? Is your "divine" not also ONE!! Is your divine not also ALL?

Do you think that if you pooh-pooh ONE-ness and go off and sulk in the corner, this won't be called a UNIVERSE or a ONE-verse any more. This darn ONE-ness just won't go away! It's a REALITY!!

Let the GURUS try and sell and profiteer from THAT!

ONE is a REALITY and WE ALL are IN IT!! For FREE!! And we don't need or want "Kicking" ... by any self-appointed Business Wizard or "magician" (according to some of his disciples?

Don ...

4d-don | Sun, 07/17/2011 - 20:36
Gilana's picture

Slow or Fast

Slow or fast, all is going to truth. Maybe slow is more fun for some? Who knows. It depends on desire.

"All are our Gurus" that is not true.

"All are our Teachers" that is true.

The meaning of words, in this case, is critical to the understanding.

Gilana | Sat, 07/16/2011 - 21:20
4d-don's picture

All are our Gurus...

Hi all:

For the wise, EVERYTHING, EVERYWHERE, EVERYWHEN (the E-Trinity) is our GURU!

A guru (Sanskrit: गुरु) is one who is regarded as having great knowledge, wisdom, and authority in a certain area, and who uses it to guide others (teacher). Other forms of manifestation of this principle can include parents, school teachers, non-human objects (books) and even one's own intellectual discipline, if the aforementioned are in a guidance role.[1]

A guru has " great knowledge"? And "authority in a certain area? ... and uses it to "guide" others, such as a TEACHER, a parent, a book, etc... ?? hmmm!

If some want to change or alter the meaning of words so as to invent and/or promote the "uniqueness" of their GURU (idol) and his "cult of a personality", and "divinize" one person and not another, then they are not being "genuine". It is not man's (a creation, a creature) baileywick, or in his/her ability or authority, to "divinize" (or make as "GOD") one's self, or another ... ONE (CREATOR) creates and divinizes EVERYTHING, EVERYWHERE, and EVERYWHEN (the E-Trinity). This attempt at "divinization" or "making divine" of a specific idol (idolatry)", and not another, are the ploys and gimmicks of the fantasy weavers ...

If some don't think that: "all our our gurus" is true, then they can start the list of those "persons", things, events which are not ... Those which no one can learn from.

WE (some) learn from Everything, Everywhere, and Everywhen (the E-Trinity) ... and hence, we don't need the "specialness" of the man-made "holy, the divine, etc...", the self-appointed egotists, megalomaniacs and profiteers. Those who don't learn or gain wisdom from all are robbing and/or limiting themselves and their sources of knowledge and wisdom. They are also trapped or made captive by their own special and unique "idols".

But don't worry, some Messiah or Saviour will on day come and SAVE ALL or LIBERATE ALL, if they wait long enough ... And if none comes, some businessman will invent one, promote it, and sell it.

It's been predicted (secular) .... or more accurately, Prophesied (religious)!

... By THEM!!

Don ...

4d-don | Tue, 07/19/2011 - 17:04
Gilana's picture

All is our guru? You better pray that's not true.

But I (and maybe existence, too) will give you a break because you don't know what a guru is.

Best,
g

Gilana | Tue, 07/19/2011 - 17:23
4d-don's picture

I "better" pray? Is that the FEAR and TEMPTATION of RELIGION?

If ever I find one thing or person, which is not of ONE, divine in itself then I will say like you that I need a SAVIOUR, to save me, because you seem to be looking for a "Messiah" or a Saviour... a "GOD-man" (as if there is such a MONSTER), not a TEACHER or a guide ... or an expert in a certain field (his invented religion).

You are looking for an expert in something that has not yet happened ... like tomorrow or LIFE ...

Any and all can claim ANYTHING they want, but the wise person goes to ONE without only one expert, proxy or one expert only to rely on ...

How do you free yourself from your one "guide"? How do you chose another expert in something else? Your Guru, which you seem to think is "divine" seems to be an expert in EVERYTHING, so the claim goes by most guru followers. He/she will control your life and death (unless if you disobey) ... not to mention your time, and your money.

Can he ask you to do anything "immoral"? YES of course, as a test ... KILL YOUR MOTHER!! (the example is state by some guru... of Sahaj Marg(tm) (and then, if the disciple is obedient, magically, GOD will hold back the hand and not allow the sword (or knife) to kill RIGHT?? Maybe tell that to the "crusaders" or the "jihadists" or any other "religious" fanatics who use religion to further their nationalist or financial goals...

You sound like a "Christian"... Those who don't know Christ can still be saved or go to heaven...so they get a break too ... of course, you are not going to heaven, but to your "guru"'s invention of the "other side" ... or re-incarnation ... whatever he wants to "INVENT".

But I will not give you a "fear and temptation" mechanism of "you better pray"!!! That's about as low as "the other" guru promoters on this site ... and all promoting different GURUS it seems ...

It's a conspiracy! An INVASION!! lol lol

Don...

4d-don | Wed, 07/20/2011 - 05:09
Gilana's picture

You are so SILLY!

No - you better pray that's not true because a true guru's intention to truth. He will burn away everything that is not truth.

Can you say that about everything? Society adds much to people that is not truth -- "have a coke!" "Blondes have more fun" "It's the reeaaal thing!" buy more, search more, buy more, separate more.

Why are you so afraid? What are you warding off? You take offence at everything - you are a total fighter ready to slay anything that says everything is not divine....you don't make sense.

Gilana | Wed, 07/20/2011 - 05:48
4d-don's picture

Is "silliness" a positive, or an attempt to be "negative"??

Hi again...

Gee! Now it's "sense" you want from some (me) but for others, you suspend "logic, and sense" as being from the lowly MIND (as if that is a no-no), and specially the "common" kind. Then (below) you make statments like: "Gurus don't get their credentials from this world"... Now that is what you call sense?? Silly?? Do you ask you doctor if his credentials are from some "reputable" institution or from the "other world"? A degree which came in a "dream"? Do you verify that some did not just "buy a degree" on-line?

Because most don't check closely, as it is not easy to do, and most are prone to believing in fantasies (magic), then "journalists" like me are necessary, so as to expose the charlatans. Those who guarantee rewards "beyond the grave"... or on the "other side", specially those who claim that one's salvation or liberation could take more than "one lifetime"... lol lol That's insurance for you eh?? Don't buy that POLICY... call the POLICE! Or simply expose them and put up a warning sign for all to see or read. Love your neighbour!

The alleged degrees from the "other world", are you sure that they are not from some "evil spirits" or entities which you religious adepts seem to believe in, and which you seem to think inhabit some other "non-sensical" realm... OUT THERE!! (Scientoloty) They may simply be from the corrupt MIND of some megalomaniacal charlatan. In a land of billions, there are many so-called "god-men" ... It's a survival mechanism.

I must be a guru ... I burn everything which is not TRUTH!! ;-))

And, by the way, don't believe commercials also ... specially those from the "religious businessmen" who also use "advertisement". They call some of them: "scriptures", or BIBLE, etc., and they claim that these "scriptures" are the "word of GOD", and MUST be BELIEVED as the TRUTH... and they will kill anyone who attempts to expose them as "silly" or making no sense. Well... here I am.

Let's put ALL the HOLY BOOKS on trial also !!

Don

4d-don | Wed, 07/20/2011 - 15:49
Gilana's picture

There is no "other world," Silly.

What other world are you talking about? There is no other world, this is it. When I say this world I mean from the same sort of institutions that give doctors their degrees.

k?

Please stop putting things in quotes and capitals - it keeps you from relating honestly. It is a part of your defensive aggression and nobody can talk to you with all that defense.

This site is for people who really want to converse, not for lecture or defense - all of which propagates separation, not integration.

Don - if you really want to be your own guru, stop the war in you.

Gilana | Wed, 07/20/2011 - 16:02
4d-don's picture

If not from the other world as you say, then from WHO...

Hi Gilana...

Who gives your GURU their credentials, if not from a "dream" as with Ram Chandra of Sahaj Marg(tm), or his successor who "steals" his title and names himself GURU, and many others? Another GURU? And who gives him his credentials? Another Guru (not of this world) ... Where is the checks and balances?

And who checks the "home work"? Is anything really done or is it like the catholic church, the more ruthless (scum) float to the top and become the bishop, arch-bishop, cardinals, popes? Or is it the "mullah" system??

With the "caste" system, if you're born a Brahmin, you are meant to be "SUPERIOR" or special. And then only your class can define the words which are used (sanskrit) ... With the catholics it was: LATIN.

Use the words you like. Your "silliness" or orders will not get their way here ... Capitals are used as I CHOSE ... being FREE. You have a choice ... DON'T READ IT.

If you can't win, you call names? And you worry about Capitals? "Honesty"? Do you have a mirror? Are you an adult at least?

You are free to go where you want to ... so am I !!

Once you have a thought of your own, you can "converse" as an adult. Now you are just using "schoolyard" bully tactics... NO ideas of your own??

There is no war going on here ... DO YOU HEAR GUNS? It is peaceful and calm, and then I deal with "EXPOSING" the religious cons ... what could be BETTER than THAT? With the religious as with "hunting", once we know what you seek (converts, or numbers of followers), you are easy to deal with...

That is a game you "religious" ADEPTS or fanatics have tried for millenia. Now with the INTERNET, that game is over. Listen to this neighbourhood and listen to yours and you may FEEL ... you won't know... But here, we are tucked inside ONE (what you call GOD), where we live... we don't have to go elsewhere to find ONE or ONE-ness ... Just LUCKY, I guess.

I just got back from a walk in the forest ... real calm ... no war ... although the cougar will have to eat a deer or some livestock one day. And that will be ONE-ness also, in SPIRIT.

Just ONE-ness here, even in dealing with YOU and your dual fantasies.

Don...

4d-don | Thu, 07/21/2011 - 00:11
Gilana's picture

Silly

Gurus can't get university credentials - because book learning can't give experience of transformation or measure a change in consciousness. One of these days maybe science will get to the point where they can measure consciousness. Then you can give buddha and jesus and mahavira and you a degree. Just to prove that you are RIGHT!

sorry don - I don't FEEL anything from you but war, aggression, ego and anger. And a closed heart. I don't see any freedom at all except from anything loving or true.

If you were ever to say anything peaceful, anything loving, anything true -- if you were inclusive and conversant, if you stopped trying to destroy and became softer and less war-like, it might be fun to talk to you. Maybe you did get a taste of something real, but it's all covered up with your aggression. Your anger against gurus. Your bitter war.

"What could be better than exposing religious cons?" How about radiating love and higher consciousness?

Gilana | Mon, 07/25/2011 - 01:03
4d-don's picture

Protecting your family and Children is LOVING!! Silly!

Hi again

You must like it here ... or you must NEED what is being said...

Since science can't measure "consciousness", then you will buy and read the books of self-titled GURUS, and trust your life to someone who makes claims which can't be verified by anyone ?? Silly!! Buyer Beware... Sell your own "life" but don't lure any others to this "un-verified" and self-styled ISM.

When one attempts to protect one's fellow citizens, family and children from those who are so addicted to power as to claim anything and everything under the sun, then that is LOVING and acting responsibly ... I speak for those who have a family!! A country? A planet? If that is not you, then don't read on.

The new role of the MEDIA and its technology (the printing press), is what freed us from the tyranical religious power of the ROMAN VATICAN (read about Martin Luther), and freed our scientists, our thinkers, (Gallileo, Copernicus, etc..) The MEDIA (and its technology) is still what is freeing us from the predatious exotic religions from other cultures as they attempt to divide and enslave our citizens as they did historically, and still do, theirs! As the poor die of starvation in their country, the (new) religions still build gross materialist temples and Ashrams... CORRUPT!! These gurus are supported by the naive idol worshippers in our countries.

If you want to see religious wars, look to ASIA and the INDIAN sub-continent, and their neighbours: the Muslims (Pakistan, Bangladesh, and Kashmir, the Sihks (in the North), etc ... etc... There is also an on-going war against the Christians in the states of the east of the country which is never reported ... Those wars are being "exported" to our shores.

The battles between the fundamentalists and the moderates are going on in our streets and in temples in Canada. Ujjal Dosangh, ex-premier of British Columbia, was beaten and nearly killed by "fundamentalists" and a few Indian liberal journalists were killed. (Then there is the Air India Disaster). The increase of violence against the "homosexuals, lesbians and trans-genders" in our country is from the Indo community ... LOVING?? WARS?? Where are their LOVING GURUS?? The gurus I expose are "homophobes" and are against any freedoms and rights for our gay brothers and sisters ... Would you support that with your MONEY??

Jesus was a "human rights" crusader ... He stood with the people against the establishment and was crucified because of a conspiracy of the Jewish religious elite of his time in cahoots with the Roman authorities. Jesus did not bow to the "elite" or the "god-men" or the "gurus" of his time. What is called Master (Baal) in India, is a generic name for "demon" in the surrounding cultures. (Beelzebub or Baalzebub means: "Mr. Demon Zebub). Jesus took the responsibility of his salvation on himself ... He cast our Demons or Baals. We should do the same!! WE are all "children of GOD" ... is what John, the beloved of Jesus (his cousin), said in John 1. If anyone believes in God, then that person has to be the "son" or "daughter" (the offspring) of GOD ... and hence is already saved!!

If I defend an unsuspecting deer, from a lion, that lion (or its acolytes) may of course want me to stop warning the deer, and hence could call me names (intimidate) and claim falsely that I am at "war" with all lions ... but that is not the truth ...

If I save the fly from the spider (webs like the gurus), that spider (or its acolytes) may say that I am at war with all spiders ... but that is not the truth... I warn all deer and all flies about SPIDERS and LIONS ... If any fly or deer want to be "silly" and become a "prey" of the lions and the spiders, then they deserve what they get,(survival of the fittest) and the lion and the spider will eat (predators are like the "religious evangelists" looking for converts, so the GURU can seem more important because he has a large "flock" or herd ) ... But all should have the information to decide for themselves ... That is the power of the "in-formation miners", the INFONAUTS, the bloggers, THE FIFTH ESTATE...

THAT is LOVING!! And not "cowardly" or treacherous to our citizens, families, children. It is not simply OBEYING the doctored "scriptures" and the tall-tales of the acolytes of the religious PREDATORS, targeting the lost sheep of other religions. In this case, they are "religious" predators, preying on those weak, ill and/or lacking in self-confidence, who can't commune with their own concept of ONE-ness, or their own GOD ... If they still need a proxy to the level of trusting a "stranger" who makes claims of "magical powers", then like the little girl in LITTLE RED RIDING HOOD, they are FREE and they can go and be eaten by the predators (wolf) in "granny's clothing". It will cleanse our cultural pool.

If you don't like what is being said here, you can go elsewhere. You must like it, (or need it) as you are still here, trying to intimidate.

Fortunately, you don't control here ... On your own blog, you could be the tyrant, the true disciple of the masters, you want to be ... and censor or muzzle anyone, specially those who don't think or talk like you (using capitals) ... and thus, possibly endanger our citizens, families, children, delivering them into the hands of predatious religious megalomaniacs who claim to BE GOD, or HIS (masculine) PROXY ...

I will not feel guilty if any news outlet reports on a future "mass suicide" of the adepts of a NEW religious group (a cult of a person) or of yet another "self-styled" guru or Master, representing GOD or an ALIEN force...

I will have done my duty and not simply OBEYED the predators invading our shores with their religions as interpreted by greedy businessmen and political nationalists. The Brahmanic elite of a caste systme ... Good for our Democracy is it??

Don....

4d-don | Mon, 07/25/2011 - 05:32
Gilana's picture

True Guru says:

"You are born as freedom. It is just that you have been conditioned to forget it. If you are a Christian, you are a puppet. Your strings are int he hand of a God that does not exist, so just to give you the sense that God exists there are prophets, messiahs, representing God.

They represent nobody, they are just eogistic people -- and even the ego wants to reduce you to a puppet. They tell you what to do, they give you Ten Commandments. They give you your personality -- that you are a Christian, a Jew, a Hindu, a Mohammedan. They give you your so-called knowledge. and naturally, under the great burden hat they start giving you from the very beginning of your childhood - underneath it, hidden, repressed, is your natural self.

You were not born a Christian or Mohammedan; you were born just pure, innocent consciousness. To be again in that purity in that innocence, in that consciousness, is what I mean by freedom.

Freedom is the ultimate experience of life. There is nothing higher than that. And out of freedom many flowers blossom in you.

Love is the flowering of your freedom. Compassion, another flowering of your freedom.

All that is valuable in life flowers in the innocent, natural state of your being.

So don't connect freedom with independence. Independence is naturally from something, from somebody. Don't connect freedom with doing things that you want to do, because that is your mind, not you. Wanting to do something, desiring to do something, you are in the bondage of your wanting and your desiring. With the freedom I am talking about, you simply are--in utter silence, serenity, beauty, bliss."

The guru -
Osho

Gilana | Mon, 07/25/2011 - 06:39
4d-don's picture

Freedom from Osho is also Freedom...

Hi Again...

He sounds like me...

At least he got the "FREEDOM from other Religions" part right ... but as with most religions, he does not include himself into the "MESS"... He is trying to gather the sheep of these other religions which he "puts down"...

He is also building a "lack of freedom" for his followers... not intentionally, I'm sure ... as all the other religions did also not mean to limit FREEDOM but to enhance it. There would be no lack of religious Freedom if the "followers" became "LEADERS" of their own LIVES ...

Freedom from the state or from "political (nationalist) groups" is something else ... That is a muscle that must be exercised by some in society, all the time, or a society (the masses) lose it, a little at a time.

The MEDIA, the FIFTH ESTATE (Bloggers) are the FREEDOM Checkers!!

Don...

4d-don | Mon, 07/25/2011 - 16:17
rvin6's picture

The importance of a living guru...

How important is it to have a living master

In my perception, it is very, very important. The greatest danger on the spiritual path is self-deception. The student can deceive or hypnotise himself into believing anything. I have heard people talking about ‘the oneness of all things’ after reading just one book. They start to believe that they know! It is so hard to tell them that spirituality starts where words end. Spirituality is not about intellectual but energetic transformation.
A lot of patience, persistence and grace are required. Even ‘senior’ meditators can fall into this trap of false knowing. They are so eager to finish their journey quickly and become gurus that they fool themselves. That is why a guide or a guru is so important. Only a being who is more evolved can see where the lesser evolved being is stuck. You need the presence of a person who can see more than you, further than you, more clearly than you. Unfortunately, even though the master sees and shares, it is not certain that his message will be received. The master’s work is subtle and complex. But what makes his impossible work possible is that he is not doing anything! He is no longer the ‘doer’. He is simply a ‘catalytic agent’ in whose presence miraculous and mysterious events just happen.
The guru alone cannot do anything. It is the disciple’s thirst, his passion for truth, his dogged determination, and above all his trust in his master that makes the magic happen. All said and done, if you are lucky enough to find a living master, stick with him! It seems it is far better if the disciple maintains some distance between himself and the master.
That definitely has its advantages. When you see the master from a distance, sitting on a podium and giving a talk, the relationship between a master and disciple remains clear. The disciple finds it easier to retain his sense of love and respect. The other way is far more dangerous, almost like walking on a tightrope at all times. The journey gets far more intense, but probably faster as well. When the master offers his physical proximity to you, at some level he has seen you worthy of the challenge. Spending so much time in the presence of the master is a huge blessing. It is like ‘spiritual sunbathing’ - it is an invisible and mysterious process of energy transmission that has the capacity to transform your life. This is because his presence is a powerful healing force, a continuous wake-up call.
Here again, the disciple has to be careful. It is quite easy to fall ‘asleep’, and start taking things for granted. The disciple, instead of feeling grateful, starts feeling special and superior, and his ego becomes bigger than Mt Everest!
At that time, you can be sure that an existential ‘kick’ is on its way. It is nature’s way of bringing you back to reality, showing you your true place.

So when you get a chance to be physically close to a master, be thankful. Make sure you thank God and the guru for giving you the chance. And pray for the wisdom and the humility to remain worthy of this divine relationship. For at the end of your life, this is probably the one relationship that will have made all the difference.

Dedicated to the holy feet of my divine master His Divine Grace YOGA JNANA SITTHAR OM SRI RAJAYOGA GURU.( www.rpt.com.my)

Regards,
S Arvinthan
rvin6@hotmail.com
+60162664499

rvin6 | Wed, 07/20/2011 - 16:08
musafir's picture

Thank you

Hi Gilana,

Thank you for your post. I thought that maybe there was something else that needed to be said, and I appreciate your comments here.

Seekers should not feel that the fact that there are beings of a different light somehow makes them less...it is not so, and if anything, the difference probably makes them more in the long run. At least it could, if they let it do so.

musafir | Sat, 07/16/2011 - 20:26
Gilana's picture

I am grateful for the invitation.

Thank you.

Gilana | Sat, 07/16/2011 - 21:23
musafir's picture

All are our gurus??

I can concede that all are our teachers, because all things, even animals and vegetation can have their message for us.

However, it seems that guru would be a little more specialized than that. As far as my understanding of the guru-chela relationship goes, I understand that there is a particular one to one relationship with he/she who is you guru, and that relationship goes across multiple incarnations and eons.

Or maybe I'm just not quite following what you necessarily mean here, Don.

musafir | Tue, 07/19/2011 - 19:51
4d-don's picture

Guru's are "specialized"??

Hi Musafir...

I know of many guru's (nationalist businessmen) who have many more disciples than they could possibly have a "one to one" relationship with ... hence they appoint proxies or "priests" or preceptors, (build their pyramid), much as religion does ... so that is the "specialization" that we have with some gurus ...

Do you know of a guru UNIVERSITY where these "experts" have attended and received a "degree"? How are they "experts"? Have they studies theology, philosophy or simply "business" AND GET RICH QUICK schemes. Or can anyone simply claim to be a SAINT, or have had a "dream" or claim to be a "re-incarnation" of who-ever, and start looking for disciples by "public speaking" and touring the "fertile" and "gullible" west" ... what the gurus call: the corrupt west.

Would you chose a doctor, a surgeon, a lawyer, an engineer etc... that way?? Don't you check these GURUS out?

In the west we have the phenomenon which has now developed into the "TELEVANGELISTS", but which started with religious tent shows and charismatic so-called "healers"... most of which were and still are: snake-oil salemen, miracle wonder workers, salesmen of "miracle water" (from Chernobyl) etc... and now, enter the GURUS !!

There are many claims, but it's a buyer beware world out there ... Because it comes from the east (India, Jerusalem, Mecca, etc..) does not mean it's SPIRITUAL or DIVINE ... it can also be SPIRITUALIST OR SPIRITIST... and SCAM!! Just like in the corrupt west...

Claims of divine, re-incarnation, or heaven or angels and "spirits" are a dime a dozen... I don't buy it..

And I'm tucked inside the ONE (god) where I live!! I (we) don't need a guru and another religious "ism" ... We have a loftier, holier, more divine, spirtuality here than the fantasy of Messiahs, Saviours, Liberators and GOD-men, and/or so-called: special personalities or "idols" called: GURUS ...

So they can stay home and "meditate" and commune with ONE where they live ... and reduce the carbon footprint for them and their disciples, for the sake of the next generation.

Don...

4d-don | Wed, 07/20/2011 - 05:32
Gilana's picture

Because Gurus don't get their credentials from the world

You use words to describe gurus that no disciple would ever use.

Here are some new attributes for you to work with:
Honest
Unbiased
clear sight
heart
experiential
experimental
Truth (no claim to it, just the universal kind)
Joy
Happiness
Freedom
Beauty (not necessarily physical)

Why are you so hostile? What is it that is being hostile?

My guru says: True freedom is not for yourself, it's from
yourself.

Gilana | Wed, 07/20/2011 - 06:10
4d-don's picture

IT's inside ALL...

Hi...

Once you find all these "virtues" inside yourself, you wont' have to look for them in others... leaving no room for "idols".

YOU are FREE ... You are also all the other attributes on your list...

Freedom is for your-self and from yourself ... don't limit. BE FREE and LEAVE othes FREE...

You are FREE to get rid of your hostility at any time, and you won't see it in others, your "fellow PEOPLE". Your "brothers and sisters".

I POINT at those who point at others. I am free to "mirror" ... and as a mirror of the PEOPLE, I like my destiny. I was born for this.

Some call it "exposing"!!

Don...

4d-don | Wed, 07/20/2011 - 15:18
Gilana's picture

You can only expose others if you think you are better than them

I don't expose - I find it hurtful, disrespectful.

Discussion is better because it allows others to find their truth rather than being shamed into it. Besides, the truth may be something other than what you think.

Gilana | Wed, 07/20/2011 - 16:21
4d-don's picture

We only HOPE!!

HI Gilana...

You don't have to expose if it's not your destiny... but some do and we should be happy that some do in all fields...

In this age of INFORMATION, we, the masses, the common people, don't have to be fooled, fleeced or scammed or enslaved anymore... but we have to look at all information from at least more than one source... I say information should be "three dimensional" (sources) at least.

The truth is not carried by one Newspaper and/or controlled by a few of the Media Barons anymore ... nor by the publishing industry.

The "FIFTH ESTATE", US, is taking over that job ... but knowledge or information is now BLIND, as Justice became when the "King/gods" and their "DIVINE RIGHTS" were forced to share their earthly power with the barons ... The Kings are now subject to JUSTICE like the rest of us... and so they should. Now it's the turn of the RELIGIOUS GOD-MEN to be de-throned from their invented heavenly or "DIVINE" realms ...

I certainly hope that the truth is "something other than what I think"... But I will never see or experience the truth if all possibilities are not engaged with a critical MIND. In "SPIRIT", ALL is ONE and ONE is ALL, so it does not matter what anyone IS ... ALL were ONE, ALL are of ONE and ALL will be ONE for eternity ... in other words, ONE is ALL and ALL is ONE, eternally, not only relatively speaking.

But MIND (and its duality) is what the weavers of fantasies and schemes use and play with ... and this MIND can be fooled by just about anyone. Which is why there are so many scams and scammers. It works. And, they, the few, make a living from the labours and the "inferiority complexes" of the many.

The emotional needs of the masses to be saved, protected, and re-assured, as well as entertained, does not only support a religious industry, it also supports an entertainment industry, a mental health industry, and a "medical" and its research indusctries as well as the pharmaceutical industry ... (and it's various scams) And of coures, the police, military and insurance industries (fire, theft, accident, crime, etc...). And there are many scams by all sides in those industries also.

So be assured that some of us are being "CRITICAL" and are not afraid to speak out... They don't frighten me with their "demons", their curses, hells, plagues, cycles of birth and death, etc ...

The evil is inside MEN, not in the fantasy or the "spirit" world.

Don...

4d-don | Wed, 07/20/2011 - 23:38
4d-don's picture

Oh! My GOD... (OMG)..

Hi all...

Oh My GOD...

A disciple of this so-called: GURU, is promoting his Master above ... is this what you mean by a REAL Guru?? Is this not a little "megalo"?? I will not even mention his name so as to not give him more publicity... Some on this site seem so gullible as to think that GOD himself now walks the earth in Tamil Nadu ... Is this what India now "exports" as SPIRITUALITY??

Guru is the creator Brahma
Guru is the preserver Vishnu
Guru is the destroyer Shiva
Guru is directly the supreme spirit
I offer my salutations to this Guru

Is this a REAL Guru by the standards of those who believe in the GURU sales SHPEEL?? Has anyone ever "tested" these claims?

He claims to have a degree in "metaphysics"?? From which ESTABLISHMENT?? Many Televangelists call themselves: "Doctor", but we now know, thanks to the INTERNET, that those degrees come "cheap" on-line ...

Here are some of the powers of a sitthar (siddhar)...

To become tiny as the atom within the atom (Anima)
To become big in unshakeable proportions (Mahima)
To become as light as vapour in levitation (Laghima)
To become as heavy as the mountain (Garima)
To enter into other bodies in transmigration (Prapti)
To be in all things,omni-pervasive (Prakamya)
To be lord of all creation in omnipotence (Isatvam)
To be everywhere in omnipresence (Vasitvam)

OH! MY GOD... ;-))

Don...

4d-don | Thu, 07/21/2011 - 18:01
Gilana's picture

Freedom

"There are three kinds of freedom: one if freedom from, another is freedom for and the third is simply freedom, neither from something nor for something. The third kind of freedom is divine.

The first kind of freedom is against the past. One wants to be free from the parents, one wants to be free from the society or one wants to be free from one's own rotten past. It is oriented in the past. It is a reaction against the past, and no reaction can ever bring real freedom; it remains tethered to the source.

For example, if your father was too much in favour of cleanliness and you rebel against him, you will deliberately start living in uncleanliness. Now your uncleanliness is a reaction to your father's obsession with cleanliness; you are not really free. The father is still dominating in a negative way; he is dominating you as much as if you had followed his ideas. That would have been a positive domination; this is negative, but domination all the same. You will never be free this way. It is your father who is forcing you to live in uncleanliness."

Osho

Gilana | Mon, 07/25/2011 - 15:51
4d-don's picture

Hi again...

Hi Again...

Now living in FREEDOM, and not living in un-cleanlisness, or in compulsive (fixated) cleanliness, I don't have a problem with it ... Nature is not "orderly" or "clean" (relatively or by society's standard. Look at the Ashrams, the Temples and the Churches, and you will see the RELIGIOUS view of "clean" and orderly.)

My father, who is now "trans-formed", does not influence my living today. So I presume this anecdotal example is something that is meant for your self or for other religious "carbon-based entities".

Carry on ...

Don

4d-don | Mon, 07/25/2011 - 16:04
Gilana's picture

Reaction

Your presumption isn't correct - the example is not the message.

Gilana | Mon, 07/25/2011 - 16:21
4d-don's picture

There are two kinds of people...

To further Osho's limited list of FREEDOMS ... (the third kind, is FREEDOM from those, such as OSHO, who list FREEDOMS as being only THREE! For the "simple-minded" obviously!! )

"There are three kinds of freedoms: one is freedom from, another is freedom for and the third is simply freedom, neither from something nor for something. The third kind of freedom is divine.

The first kind of freedom is against the past. One wants to be free from the parents, one wants to be free from the society or one wants to be free from one's own rotten past. It is oriented in the past. It is a reaction against the past, and no reaction can ever bring real freedom; it remains tethered to the source.

There are two kinds of people:

1. Those who list FREEDOMS as being of 3 categories (limited) ...

2. Those who see myriads or FREEDOMS and "rights" which have to be safeguarded from those who make limited lists of FREEDOMS, and categorize them as "3"? ... Specially those who pooh pooh other religions, such as OSHO, and who don't include themselves and their own "followers".

There is also FREEDOM from those "limited" characters ...

There there are those who are impressed by such simple-minded silliness and those who are not IMPRESSED or AMUSED!! lol lol ;-))

Don ...

4d-don | Tue, 07/26/2011 - 23:36
musafir's picture

Guru University??

I don't know about anything like that, but I do know that in the West, there is talk of a disciplic succession when speaking of bishops, etc. In vedic culture the term is Parampara and amongst the Sufis, you hear about the silsila. In all these cases you're speaking of a guru's guru's guru's guru...etc.

Now I'm not exactly sure what your point is, in the final analysis. Some of your posts seem to lean toward a guru being a good thing, and others seem to lean in the opposite direction.

Oddly enough, there seems to be an attempt to draw me into some kind of debate, when all I'm really trying to do is make sure that I understand what's being said here. Personally, I don't know the answer to the question "Is a living guru necessary?" I'm not even sure that the question is necessary.

It seems to me that, in the final analysis, a guru is necessary if you feel you need one. If not, then don't bother.

musafir | Thu, 07/21/2011 - 21:59
4d-don's picture

It's RELATIVE...

Hi Musafir...

If one is progressing relatively too slow, according to each person's self-assessment, then to seek a different path, is normal ... whether from a professional or from an "alternate" self-titled expert. ALL are really FREE to do as they wish. It's the proselytizing and the wild claims, that I challenge. (see above)

If one is progressing at a relatively comfortable speed, then one can simply BE ... and live in gratefulness and grace.

If one is "tucked inside ONE-ness" where one lives, then to live in gratefulness and grace is to live NOW, and then one does not have to keep seeking.

There is none so thirsty, than when one's well is full, they still thirst. If that was my condition, then, for that I would seek a cure, not from a so-called Saviour who is claimed by his disciples to save me as if by "magic", without me doing anything except "obeying" and repeating rituals. I would seek to create a change in my self by freely taking a different "point of view" and by taking a different attitude inside myself.

Don ...

4d-don | Fri, 07/22/2011 - 01:08
musafir's picture

Re:It's Relative.

Hi Don,

I can resonate with your statements here. I understand completely the reluctance to get involved in the whole proselytizing and other such things.

For me, spirituality is a kind of a fluid thing anyway. In the mid 1980's, I was a disciple of a Hindu guru who passed away not long ago. It was not a great experience as his other disciples began to call him an avatar, and there was nothing in my experience of the man that told me that he was anything other than a fairly competent meditation teacher. So I left that particular movement.

I think that's why I said, if you feel the need for a guru, seek one out, and if not, don't worry about it. If you really need a guru, he/she will show up, and you'll know without doubt.

musafir | Sat, 07/23/2011 - 20:04
4d-don's picture

The cure is tied to the dis-ease....

Hi Musafir...

My dad (long ago passed away) who was a healer (a wild herb gatherer, a shahman?, a mystic?) before any doctor was readily available to our small village, many miles from a town, used to say:

Wherever one sees a poisonous substance, the antidote will be right around it, nearby ... Example: Dock, the leaf of which is an antidote for the sting of the "stinging nettle" grow around one another ... Stinging nettle is eatible (boiled or steamed ... not raw).

But he also extrapolated that disease and cure were also around one another and were tied together ...

One may see the same situation with a Guru and a disciple seeking a "teacher" ... One does not have to travel to find one, it (he/she) should be near one's need (in space and time), or these are near one another.

When one needs carpentry work done, a carpenter appears, not necessarily a "perfect" one, ... or else one does the carpentry work one's self ... It's the laws of chance ... or synchronicity.

....or as you say: "When the disciple is ready, the master comes." A "perfect" or "divine" one? It's relative to one's need!

Gurus come and go... Divine is always near.

Don ...

4d-don | Sun, 07/24/2011 - 16:49
musafir's picture

Freedom from Osho?

Hi Don,

Maybe I'm mistaken in my notion, but it seems that perhaps you are saying that you had a bad experience with Osho?

I don't know much about him other than the things said on network news many years ago when he was deported from the US.

My own "freedom from" was from Sri Chinmoy. I never was very deep into the Chinmoy organization, but when his other disciples started asserting that he was an avatar, I ran quickly in the other direction. I always felt that Sri Chinmoy was a pretty good meditation teacher, and an excellent Bhakti poet, but there was nothing that ever convinced me that he was any more than that.

musafir | Tue, 07/26/2011 - 22:41
4d-don's picture

Bad experience with GURUS in General

No, I did not have any "bad experience" with Osho, but I am familiar with his organization and his "tantric Yoga". I live on the West Coast and we witnessed the Osho GURU phenomenon on our NEWS media (TV, radio, newspaper)...

I never knew anyone so silly as to believe in OSHO being more DIVINE than a goat, but are we not all DIVINE?

I am also familiar with Sri Chinmoy through my research but not personally.

Sorry...

Don

4d-don | Tue, 07/26/2011 - 23:18
musafir's picture

Okay...I'd say that makes sense.

I can understand the flap over a lot of the things that surround gurus generally. And there are going to be somewhat extreme "true believers" surrounding any spiritual master. I would imagine that there were some people that we'd call "Whackjobs" today that were among the close followers of Jesus, for that matter.

Anyway, I know that there was a whole lot more stuff surrounding Sri Chinmoy than I knew about, since I was never part of the higher echelon of what might be called his "organization", and so I'm not willing to comment on all that. All I can say that I did perceive at the time was the claims for "avatarhood" that were made for him, and he also seemed to have a tendency to pay more attention to "celebrity" disciples than to the unknowns. I saw how he fawned over Clarence Clemons (From Bruce Springsteen's band), track star Carl Lewis and Michael Walden (from Carlos Santana's band). There was probably similar fawning over Carlos Santana and another great jazz-rock guitarist by the name of John McLaughlin before they left his movement.

musafir | Wed, 07/27/2011 - 20:54
4d-don's picture

Embarassing isn't it?? Christianily is embarassing also...

It is embarassing to see one who we once thought was "above all that" looking very human ... It is embarassing when our religious "emperor" is shown to have no clothes (or is attracted to fame, power, money, etc... contrary to what they preach) and it is now "REVEALED".

I am familiar with all those musicians...

And now, today, we have an organized Media, NEWS or some INFORMATION ... In the days of Jesus, news was by "word of mouth".

There were some "wackjobs" or "wackos" around Jesus also ... and all through the now-known and shameful history of the many Christian sectarian religions, and yet the cult of Jesus has continued for over 2,000 years. (with the help of the ruthless ROMAN Empire and other as ruthless imperial states of the "colonial era": Spain, France, England, Holland, Germany, etc..)

Christianity was spread by many colonial states, and by the sword and the gun. The claim of Love was just a "come-on"... Accept to be loved or be killed!!

The teachings of Paul, who never met Jesus, are as important as the teachings of the other apostles of Jesus and almost as important as the teachings of Jesus, in Christianity. Jesus never wrote anything (or left anything behind)... Paul wrote "epistles" to many of the groups he organized in many major towns he passed as he traveled the area, manufacturing (hiring women) and selling his tents, and growing his "MISSION" of Christians "tent makers". Paul collected money for the Saints of Jerusalem...and was accused of using that "collection" for his personal expensed in his travels. (scandal of the time? No Newspapers!!)

Paul (aka Saul) who was a Jewish fundamentalist "wacko" of his time and place, (the Jewish State of Judea), and a Roman citizen, was very upset at the New Jesus Movement and was on his way to Damascus, after having incited a mob to "stone to death" one disciple of Jesus, called Stephen. Many of his Jewish contemporaries thought that the phophesied Messiah, (Jesus?), would free the Jews from earthly persuctors (Rome?). Paul was a Roman citizen (a collaborator with invaders). Jesus spoke of FREEDOM from this world (in another world, Heaven. He also spoke of "forgiveness".

Continuing on to Damascus (Paul/Saul was a tent maker), he was knocked off his horse by a "bolt of light", (allegedly and anecdotally on a clear and cloudless day) and Jesus apparently asked: "Saul, why do you persecute me?". There are now "experts" who claim that Paul/Saul suffered from "epilepsy" and that he had a "grand mal" seizure. He was sent to Jerusalem by his "vision" where he basically took over the fledgeling and frightened disciples of Jesus, who had just been crucified by a Roman official (Pontius Pilate) under the influence of a Jewish group of conspirators who wanted to get rid of Jesus (including Paul?).

Paul's argument was that the disciples had met and served Jesus the Man, but that he had not met Jesus, the man, but that he was the only one to have met the son of GOD (the spirit, the HOLY GHOST).

This religion (which became the Roman Catholics) in the 4th century ACE, was made the State Religion of the Roman Empire. Jesus went from being called: "Rabbi" (teacher, guide), to being "deified". Jesus became a God, the son of the ONE Jewish God (Yahweh), and the second person of a GODLY "Trinity", a tri-une God with GOD the Father, and God, the HOLY GHOST, which dwell in Heaven. This was decreed by the Roman Emperor Constantine at the Council of Niceae as the "Nicean Creed" which all catholics must profess to be part of the Holy Roman Catholic Church (Holy Mother the Church). ;-))

It (the new religion) became the imperial "religious bully" of which we now have a more accurate history (crusades, persecutions of Gnostics, Cathars (believers), the Inquisitions, the persecution of the Pagans, the Wiccans, the Druids, the Norse, and many other religions including some thinkers(natural philosophers or scientists) and many Native cultural (tribal) religions (North America, Australia, Africa, South America, Inuit, etc...)

There are many other examples of scandalous Wackjobs in the lineage of the Papacy of the Holy Roman Catholic Church, which was even controlled for a time by the political family, the "Medici Family" of Northern Italy. Some popes were not even ordained as "priests". They became Popes by political pressure and the back-room dealings of the Medicis.

Religions and Wackjobs or Wackos are historic bed fellows ...

Don...

4d-don | Thu, 07/28/2011 - 05:58
Gilana's picture

Media and Goats and Osho

Don -

I know you have an aversion to being "controlled" by anything...so please accept my warning--in being influenced by the NEWS media (TV,radio, newspaper) you may be fed incorrect and or incomplete information. I know of no other cultural control mechanism so insidious as the media, especially when dealing with truly enlightened individual (witness Socrates and Jesus.)

P.S. If it's as divine as OSHO, must be an amazing goat. Don't remember saying that OSHO is more divine than anything else...just that he was and is a true guru and an enlightened being, servant of humanity and that he contributed as much to bringing options to the attention of humanity as anyone you can name.

Gilana | Fri, 08/12/2011 - 23:36
sonti's picture

A lot of misconceptions about this but the answer is clear

There are a lot of misconceptions about this critical issue, these can be seen in many of the replies here and are mainly due to the mischievousness mind who wants to make sure no opposing force will threaten its dictatorship (and also the ego who finds it hard to submit and surrender to another human being who is alive).

But the answer to this critical issue is clear and straightforward:

There are two forces that can challenge the dictatorship of the mind: meditation and a true living guru. No other options. Your intellectual mind and ego will try to come with all sorts of arguments. Disregard them.

And therefore, for people who are not exercising long sessions of meditation in a daily manner, a living guru is a must. For those who are sitting for long sessions of meditation, really doing it daily as a constant habit with no excuses, a living guru is helpful but not a must.

Now you choose: meditation or a living guru. If you say neither then you are in a big trouble regardless of your clever arguments and excuses. You are fooling yourself, you are dishonest with yourself and until you realize this, no matter how many books you read, you will remain in the same position on the path.

This is not a hypothesis or a theory. This is a living fact. It is up to you now to ignore it or to trust and adopt it and thus have your spiritual journey launched in a quantum leap. These lines can make the change in your progress that no lines have ever done.

sonti | Thu, 08/11/2011 - 19:31
4d-don's picture

Gotcha!! Exposed again!!

Hi Sonti...

I like your photo ... are you related to Darth Vader?? Richard the Lion-heart?? Does it scare the "feeble" women?? You display a love of "fantasy" for all to see!! Is that "ego" coming through as if from fantasy-land: "Bollywood"??

I see right away your "mischievousness mind who wants to make sure no opposing force will threaten its dictatorship" and that your "ego who finds it hard to submit and surrender to another human being... " seems to want the minds of others to submit to you or to "your chosen GURU".

When will you give us the "Sales pitch"?? Your "come-on"??

The answers to the questions of LIFE are as varied as there are people. Some sojourners chose a "guide" sometimes but few chose a guide for LIFE!! Some seek out an expert in some specific field sometimes, but few rely on an expert for "EVER", or for LIFE ...

And LIFE has to be lived by the entity which owns the body and the MIND, so as to learn the lessons it has to give, since it is not already MANIFEST. There are no EXPERTS in LIVING!! We all learn as we go .... although many claim to be experts in LIFE. There are many such charlatans who sell SPIRITUALISM (as SPIRITUALITY), or some form of MAGIC, but "spirits" and "magical powers" are figments of the imagination of some "charlatans". There ain't no such "entities" or "phenomena". SPIRITUAL-ism is a "con"!!

These "experts in Spiriutalism" are usually salesmen of one "ism" or another and some are even "con-men", who prey on those who are basically "co-dependent" and/or gullible. Get a real LIFE!! And live it yourself!!

SPIRITUALITY means to relate to, and/or commune with SPIRIT, not to other humans or matter (carbon-based entities). Then go and meditate if you want to. But, there are many more options. Some will "contemplate" and some will "pray" and some will simply LIVE without any of the "rituals" dictated (using fear and temptation) by charlatans. Many of these "good people" will be Ethical and Moral people and will not use trickery on their "fellow humans" and will help their neighbours should they need a helping hand.

Some "good people" will even help the poor in other countries (like yours), unlike many "GURUS" who gather money to build their "empires" and travel around the world.

Everyone should chose for themselves, and when they are ready, (not "NOW"! as you say above... ) and not when they are being dictated to by those who use: "no other options"... or "it's a must"... "Chose NOW"!! What's next? A vacuum cleaner for sale?? Or a BOOK? You are a "salesman" or a "businessman", right?

NOW the FEAR mechanism comes out, just like all the RELIGIOUS con-men: "you are in big trouble" !! ... you are fooling yourself" ... "you are dishonest with yourself"... lol lol ;-)) Get serious!! Which backwoods part of the world do you come from?? Catch up to 2011 ... Are you a "televangelist"??

Unfortunately for you, the path I take is mine to live, and I decide what I do on this path, and with whom I do it, and where I go ... Being tucked inside ONE where I live, I fear not, and I laugh at those who use "FEAR" to gather "marks" (those who are taken in by "con-men" )...

There are "facts", then there are "damn facts" and then, there are "statistics"... and then there is "Fox News"... lol lol ;-))

There are no facts, only interpretations. Friedrich Nietzsche.

I guess a "lving fact" is a fact which changes with LIFE or TIME... or is it the facts of a "living guru"... Those are facts which are made up and are not even the TRUTH.

Our path starts with birth and reaches "trans-formation"... but there is no end or no death so ...

I can see by your last lines that you have a large "ego" and you seem to think that you can empower yourself with your "living facts" ...

I was not "launched" but I stirred gently, and not in a "big bang" or in a "quantuum leap", some many years ago and I am still in MOTION!! In PEACEFUL and in GRATEFUL and contented MOTION.

May your "living facts" become interpretations about LIVING ... Have you heard of RELATIVITY?? It's not simply a theory anymore... Being around for over 100 years, it is now a RELATIVE fact... lol lol

Happy trails to you ... until we meet again!!

I don't buy what you sell!

Don...

4d-don | Fri, 08/12/2011 - 00:26
alon's picture

At the end of the day, it is all about transcending the mind

4d - you have just demonstrated the pitfall sonti was pointing out in exactly the same manner he was describing it with the excuses of the mind and the ego, was it just a joke to demonstrate that pitfall? :-)

sonti - I'm following this interesting discussion for a while and my feeling is that you were the one that finally presented the insightful and most accurate and universal answer. I admit that these two are the real choices in hand and that many times I was escaping both of them, actually my mind. At the end of the day, it is all about transcending the mind.

alon | Fri, 08/12/2011 - 05:42
4d-don's picture

Your're pretty good!!

Hi alon...

I once met a Hungarian monk who, if I made a valid point in our conversation would interject: "Your're Pretty good!"

Yes, I use the same "fear and temptation" mechanism (and humour or put-on) with pseudo-religious or the spiritualists, so as to expose their artificial LIMITATIONS.

I would not limit myself to two choices: Meditation or guru! I would not promote that to my friends and children either. I would not limit myself to two choice in any endeavours, be it political (right-left), or health (allopathic- alternative), or religioun (theism or a-theism), Spiritual (meditation-guru), etc..

We are in a multi-dimensional world, and the dualistic nature of MIND can not be transcended by limiting it to the "dual" choices of religion/spiritualism. It displays its slavery to MIND by it's "two choices".

But in the end, you are the MASTER of your SHIP.

I encourage FREEDOM in all, not the giving of one's control to another person one does not really KNOW. If one wants to "contemplate", one retains one's FREEDOM.

If one gives one's control to another, one has not controlled or transcended MIND but has simply transfered control to another aspect of MIND. In one's contemplation, one still has many choices to make, not simply the "black and white" choices of TWO (duality). With a GURU, one simply OBEYS or leaves that guru ... like a serf or a pet!! One does not empower any other in our daily journey. (doctor, banker, politician, military, police, builder, etc..

REALITY is diverse, not only dual ... The choices are also diverse. WE are not in Kansas anymore ... This is not a 2d world ... It never was, but we now know better, thanks to the FREEDOMS which were taken from the so-called: religious/spiritualist sector (as in "business").

We owe a debt of gratitude to all the "great MINDS" who liberated us from the chains of religious DOGMA and opened the multi-dimensional aspect of our UNIVERSE: Leonardo da Vinci, Gallileo, Copernicus, Gauss, Rieman, Maxwell, Picasson, Dali, Einstein, Minkowski, Klein, Calibi-Yau, etc.. etc... (to mention but a few of a long, long list)

Or to the "wise MINDS" who called our concept of "creator" or "creative" as ONE (Plato, Vivekananda, etc..:)

These are the "UNIFIERS" in our society ... They opened up our FREEDOMS and our CHOICES.

SPIRIT-uality deals with SPIRIT and is ONE ... SPIRITUALITY UNIFIES ... RELIGION/SPIRITUALITY deals with duality and divides ... even to war!

Don.

4d-don | Fri, 08/12/2011 - 17:05
alon's picture

Truth is terribly simple

No one asked you to limit yourself, we are talking about limiting the mind; and yes, limiting the mind is simple as the mechanics of the mind are simple. One of the problems of many on the path, maybe the main problem of the religions, is that they make the simple complex. The mind looks for the complicated analysis and solutions and overlook the simple, and thus is entangled in these philosophies and theories forever. I've come to realize all spiritual truths are terribly simple at the end of the day.

Bottom line: you have here a controlling mechanism with which you are identified and the name of the game is to dis-identify, to go beyond - this can be achieved either inwardly or outwardly, in both two cases it must be done by a counter mechanism that is completely independent on the mind: outwardly it must be an active authority to whom you will be willing to submit and surrender (must be alive and human), inwardly, by definition, it can only be that which is called meditation. Very simple.

Don't hold complexity as a guiding value.

Let me ask you a question: do you do meditation on a daily basis or have a living guru? :-)

alon | Fri, 08/12/2011 - 18:59
4d-don's picture

Meditation, contemplation, and MORE!!

Hi alon..

In my culture, we don't Meditate but we "contemplate"!! One is "doing" and one is "BEING" with. The meditation I experienced was active (imagine (that is MIND) light in the heart, imagine it is GOD, etc..) and one is passive ... BE with ONE as IT is.

And after having the "son of GOD" for a Master (Jesus, the Christ), all carbon-based entities after that are not really "living" but are of this illusory world ... One has to be in the "outer realm" so as to guide anyone ... is the Christian claim.

But I have also attended the satsangh of many Indian gurus also, many of which I left in disgust, seeing them similar to our western "tel-evangelists", and con-men trying to build a financial empire. I now expose them. Some are simply following their "tradition" and are not "imperialists" or nationalists, so I leave them BE.

I have also had some "communion" with shahmans and shared in their mystical experiences ... My dad was a shahman and a healer (he could stop bleeding, blood poisoning (gangrene) and many more so-called "miracles" or "cures", (including using herbs and potions), which he simply shrugged off dismissively as "anyone can do what I do" and he never called them "miracles" but claimed that he was simply applying some other (higher??) very natural laws. Many healers from the "native" community would come to our place to share herbs and techniques, and sometimes to be protected from the racism of the "white" community ...

It was part of what is called: Charismatics ... and was not accepted by the Christian "catholic" church.

I have experienced other spiritual paths and some SPIRITUALIST paths also...

I have entered into spiritualist communities and have tested and chanllenged them, including satanists and demonologists!
Some were simply "lunatics" (mentally ill or they became mentally ill because of their practice), and some were criminals (cons) but some were really into "spirits" and the control of spirits over people ... There is no REAL POWER there except the very material power of HUMANS ... Evil dwells in the hearts of men ... it is HUMANS who create a personification of evil as they create a personification of the CREATIVE, what they call: God (Gothic) or Divinity (latin Deus).

SPIRITUALISM is not SPIRITUALITY ... Many so-called GURUS are really SPIRITUALISTS with "mediums, egregores,spirits, a heaven (Brighter World), "spirits" etc and the dreaded "cycle of birth and death"... I chuckle...

In my culture, humans (carbon-based entities) are not "re-incarnated" they are "recycled".

Don

4d-don | Sat, 08/13/2011 - 05:01
Gilana's picture

Guru and Meditation

I am not suggesting that you meant otherwise, so just to add to the conversation, in my experience they are best used together rather than one or the other. At some point if and when meditation becomes life and life is lived in full consciousness, the guru drops away. My guru has said to his disciples, "When the Master appears, the guru disappears."

An interesting aspect of the Guru as the outer guide and Meditation as the inner guide directly addresses duality - the merging of the two is the goal into non-duality. The single eye--single sight.

Gilana | Fri, 08/12/2011 - 19:34
alon's picture

I can't agree with you more

I can't agree with you more, gilana

alon | Fri, 08/12/2011 - 20:16
4d-don's picture

SPIRIT is Strong, Confident. Spirituality is not co-dependency!

HI all...

Those who have been made to believe, or convinced by the MINDS of others that they can't reach or realize REALITY where they are, and by themselves, because their MIND will trick them, and yet trust the MIND of another, can be said to have a confidence problem, and will be open to be taken advantage by any or all "confidence" (cons) men/women and/or profiteers, power-addicted, egotists.

That lack of confidence or "co-dependency" is a mental "dis-ease" and one having a "needy" personality, should get help from a trained professional, not from a self-canonized spiritualist charlatan, un-trained in guiding others, except in the person's own MIND. The "cons" have a lot of "confidence", hence their self-titles, and self-appointments, and hence they tend to take advantage of those who don't. Many study "mesmerism" or "hypnotizism" or other "star making" techniques worthy of the worst in the ENTERTAINMENT industry.

The world of SPIRITUALITY is a "buyer beware" world ... and most seeking spirituality will really get "spiritualism", an exterior and very material and ritualistic (MIND) journey, rather that the desired SPIRIT-uality which is an "interior" journey ... SPIRITUALITY=relating to SPIRIT ... not to HUMANS and their "rituals" !!

If ONE (what some call God, ALL, or REALITY) can't be accessed from where one lives, then why would a "normal" person accept the "ideas" (MIND) or words of self-professed proxy who makes claims of being a guide to REALITY or the GREAT Morality?? Is the "grass really greener" on the other side of the fence, or in INDIA or in some other "exotic" land? ... That is a flawed theology. ONE does not need the proxy or the help of it's CREATION ... How could ONE have created ALL if ONE needed ALL to begin with? ... ONE does not NEED!! ONE should BE PERFECT. Hence our MIND's concepts of ONE should also be un-needy but PERFECT also.

Some humans are "NEEDY" and hence are incomplete in themselves. Not so ONE. ONE is complete and does not NEED, nor does ONE need to appoint proxies, chosens or "god-men" to guide ONE's CREATION to realize the REALITY which is all around ALL, outside and inside also !! The outside is MANIFEST, the temporal illusion of the material, and the inside is not manifest yet ... is SPIRIT! MAN, or his power-seeking dual mind makes those claims of doing the work of ONE (God or REALITY)!!

And co-dependent women and men, and some men seeking power in any and/or all pyramids of power, accept to follow. Most men hoping to reach the vertex of the pyramid. Some women follow the Minds of others to be taken (told what to do) and some men follow, so as to get something or to take (i.e. become a good soldier so as to become the general).

SPIRIT is simply BEING ... IT is INSIDE, and not manifest, not MATERIAL, not getting, not taking, not following, not DOING!!

There is no ZERO or NOTHING! Zero is an abstraction or MIND!

ONE is as simple as it gets ... ONE is ALL! ALL is ONE!

Don ...

4d-don | Wed, 08/17/2011 - 17:24
Gilana's picture

"Spirit is not co-dependency" RIGHT!

Neither is the relationship with the Guru. I think you are getting this!

Gilana | Wed, 08/17/2011 - 17:29
4d-don's picture

One hears what one wants to hear, and disregards the rest....

Hi again ...

lol lol

That is: "Spirituality" does not mean "co-dependency".

When in Spirit, one simply IS, and does not NEED of anything or anyone ...

SPIRIT is inside ... guru (usually a man, made of carbon and a few other elements or materials) is outside. One can read see, smell, touch the guru, one can listen to the guru and one can obey the guru, and one (some) develops a need for the guru, and then one depends on the guru. And most of the time, one will stay with the same guru for LIFE ...

Followers of gurus are usually LIFERS ... Guru does not let his disciples go, and many disciples never GO!! As a matter of fact, they are almost always expected to serve, proselytize, and to attract others to the guru. They are expected to do the work of "his self-ordained mission". That is beside the "rituals" decreed by the guru and the donations expected in gratitude. (in exchange for "a pamphlet, a book" or a souvenir, icon, etc.)

One can't tell the guru what to do or say or how to live. The "guru/disciple" is a one-way relationship ... one talks, preaches, commands, and the others (disciples) listen and obey.

... A man (or woman) hears what he/she wants to hear and disregards the rest... Paul Simon (Simon and Garfunkel) in "The Boxer"

;-))

Don ...

4d-don | Wed, 08/17/2011 - 22:35
Kevin22's picture

Is a living guru necessary?

No, it is not necessary. It might be helpful for some though.

Kevin22 | Fri, 08/19/2011 - 00:12
4d-don's picture

I agree...

I agree... Specially if the word "guru" is taken to mean, FRIEND, as in some Sufi Stream or paths ...

Many find a "friend" helpful sometimes, but not all the time. Even "love" and "caring" can become a burden. As Khalil Gibran (in his book: The Prophet) says: "There should be distance in your togetherness".

And some Sufis also say: "Do not cling to foolish friends, instead rejoice in solitude." (which is contemplation (alone), I take it to mean)

Don

4d-don | Fri, 08/19/2011 - 05:05
Gilana's picture

Gurus

I am so grateful to have my Guru - the only person I communicate with who has no agenda. Which seems to lead to protecting your viewpoint. Anyone who needs to make their point or defend their viewpoint has lost objectivity.

It's easy to see attachment to viewpoint in that the person who holds it finds it impossible to find the positive in opposing thoughts.

However a guru has no need to defend any viewpoint. They don't need anything - even agreement or disagreement from others - so they can be objective.

Anyone with a viewpoint has an agenda and can't help you spiritually. That's just one reason I am lucky to have found my guru.

Gilana | Fri, 08/19/2011 - 07:26
4d-don's picture

Hi all.. Other idealized or

Hi all..

Other idealized or "utopian" perfections ... beside perfect "humans", which don't exist in reality.

God-men (incarnations of the CREATOR or CREATIVE.

Plato's 5 solids, Euclids planes, or other idealized shapes (point, lines, planes,solids, etc.) accepted for mathematical purposes ...

One or two dimensional "things" or "beings".

Perfect or un-broken symmetry.

Zero (Nothing)... There is no vaccum, no NOTHING. The Universe is a PLENUM and a "continuum".

SPIRITUALITY means accepting the REALITY, the real ONE-ness of SPIRIT, not an idealized (of MIND), fantasy for the sake of completing a dual or reductionist MIND. The part is incomplete.

Perfection or completeness is in ONE, the WHOLE, or the ALL, not in any of the parts.

Don

4d-don | Fri, 08/19/2011 - 17:36
4d-don's picture

View-point, view-line, view-plane, view-solid, etc...

Hi all...

What's the POINT?

There is no real "point" in REALITY ... (there are only "points and point particles in idealizations of the IMAGINATION (MIND); and hence, one's "view-point" (or "view-line" etc...) is very limiting and is only defended by dogmatists and fundamentalists, or literalists or other merchants of fantasies who glorify one "point" and not ALL points; those who attempt to promote and sell their very subjective "point of view" to be defended by others (adepts, followers, disciples, etc..)who depend on their organizational structures (triangle or pyramid (masculine), circle or sphere (feminine) for their idealized but illusory "completeness".

An idealized point has no real extension in SPACE (REALITY) in any directions, so an idealized point is called: 0-d (dimension or measurement). An idealized line has two possible freedoms (choices) or directions for MOTION in Space once a direction has been freely chosen. A line is then called 1-d. (there is also the opposite direction from the "chosen" one: right/left, up/down, front/back, etc...)

A plane has two possible (freedoms) motions perpendicular (at right-angle) to the line. A plane is 2-d. A solid has two possible motions perpendicular to the plane (above/below). A solid is 3-d.

String Theory or M-Theory (Witten) is our current physical attempt at an idealized world "VIEWPOINT", which starts with a one-dimensional "string" (a 1-d line), not a 0-d point particle ...

To defend "one's (or any) subjective point of view" is as silly as to pretend that one (or anyone else) is objectively "perfect" (idealized).

David Bohm's (a protégée of Einstein) "Holographic Universe" theory states:

"The whole is in the part in non-locality"...

That means that REALITY, according to Bohm's theory, is at least 4-d and beyond. That means: beyond the 0-d point (or its "Viewpoint"), the 1-d line (line of sight, line of thinking, etc...), plane (flat-earth), solid (3-d), or hyper-solid (4-d) ... (at 4-d, MOTION as measured by TIME, is part of the created SPACE or experienced REALITY). The MOTION in 4-d is "in/out" or "ana/cata" (anode/cathode).

But we, if we are REALLY SPIRIT are not only 4-d but our REALITY is at least comprised of the 7-d of LIGHT, SOUND, and their "octaves" (8). The paradigm from a galactic perspective is a SPIRAL (cycles of never-ending circles or spheres, which never complete quite "perfectly" or idealized ... hence perfection would be imaginary only... or there would be no MOTION...no CREATION!! And there is ONE!!

Religions still organize as divisive "PYRAMIDS" or SPHERES, with the "chosen", the "elite" inside the masculine pyramids or the feminine spheres, and the "others" outside the organizational structures. The CREATOR (GOD) is placed at either the "top" or at the "center", and the disciples and the priests are said to be at the edges or at the vertices of the pyramid (2-d triangle or 3-d pyramid or tetrahedron), or at the perimeter (equi-distant from the POWER) of the circle (2-d plane or the 3-d sphere).

Let us discuss "ideas" and "con-cepts" (formed from inputs and insights from our own re-cepts (receptors), and not whether these are some "view-point" or view-line, or even the inner "see-ings" of the "see-ers" (what some call "prophets").

The novel idea of a newly-born child is as valid and as "imperfect" or as "incomplete" as the view of an "IDOL" or an imagined or idealized perfect "god-man". Only EGO makes it (a saint's or a fool's concepts or "viewpoint") more valuable, or a "TREASURE" to be kept intact for ETERNITY, hence attempting to stop the MOTION or progression of ideas, and not allowing for the process of learning or even of CREATION to exist now ... a futile excercise of self-styled "Wizards and old MEN/WOMEN who will trans-form or be "recycled" into other elements for ETERNITY (what some call: dying).

Religions which invent CREATION myths, also need an "end of the world". Both are a product (fantasy) of the "IMAGINATION" or MIND. We will only know by LIVING!! And our knowledge will always be "in flux" or in MOTION !!

Don

4d-don | Mon, 08/29/2011 - 18:47
Gilana's picture

What have you experienced?

This is for everybody (not just 4d-don). Your words make no sense to me - but if you can give a hint of what you have really experienced rather than what you think I would be very interested to hear you.

I don't know (nor do I wish to know) where you got your ideas about Imperfect or Incomplete or Idols or God-mans - none of that means anything to me. Maybe it does to someone else.

What I know (from my experience) is: God is. (!) Existence is.(!) I am. (!) When I flow with existence I am "golden." Gurus are around to help you with whatever you need in order to start flowing. If you find a true Guru, he can coach you, just like a tennis player needs a coach to see where his swing is errant. He's not perfect or a God-man (whatever that is) he just knows how to flow. It's as simple as that.

I can't tell you how Existence works because I am not the whole. Nobody in manifestation is. So, don't believe any words, thoughts, or beliefs...they are all limited, and existence is beyond any limiting words or concepts.

4d - you might be right but you might be wrong. You will never know.

Gilana | Tue, 08/30/2011 - 04:26
4d-don's picture

What do you THINK??

Hi all...

What(not WHO) is this "GOD" about which you claim to know? Thomas Aquinas, a Christian monk and theologian said: A God which is REAL is more powerful than a God which is not real. Is your GOD real? Is there only ONE of them? IS IT ALL which exists? Is IT outside it's CREATION? Why do you call your "one-ness" by a Gothic word? Can you enter the state of ONE-ness with ALL?

The word, "God" describes some emperors (Rome, Greece, ) and some "heroes" such as the gods of ancient antiquity ... Now some Gurus claim to be "incarnations" or representatives of this "God" which is a GOTHIC (German) word ... IT is usually thought of as a MALE ... Is your God a Male?? What does your GURU think of your GOD??

But maybe since you seem to seek something else than ONE, UNITY or or ONE-ness, you can also ask your guru what it is that you think or know of this "GOD" which you mention in passing.

I presume that you know that "you are", much as René Descartes (French mathematician and philosopher ) said: "I think therefore I am". If it's not "THINKING" which lets you know that you are, then maybe your guru will tell you how you know that you are, existing, as you say.

Apparently, some can't think unless they are "told to" or trained by someone else, and some THINK by themselves, taking information and knowledge from ALL (beings and things), not only one "self-titled" or self-appointed GURU or his "ism" ...

Even people who think, even if those who don't think or don't want to think for or by themselves can't understand, still have a right to give opinions on the value (or lack of) of a "GURU"!! Not a "guide" or a "teacher" but a "GURU" or a MASTER in LIVING or SPIRIT (one-ness??), who advises others about SPIRIT or about what some call: GOD, what I call ONE or ONE-ness ...

I sit in peace at home and walk in the forest (my back yard), and I am at PEACE and at ONE ... tucked inside ONE, where I LIVE ... I commune with friends and we "understand" one another, in compassion and joy ... not in obedience and sub-servience.

No one in my circle claims to know more than the other about how to LIVE or BE. None who come into my space thinks themselves an "expert", a "master" or a "guru" in SPIRIT-uality or GOD-ness ... None are "chosen", elite, saved, liberated, members of a Master-race, proxy for any "GOD", or all "knowledge"...

Such deviants and megalomaniacs and their followers do not like the "normal" and the common people ... They seek obedient followers, and we THINKERS are not OBEDIENT !!

An I would add, don't believe the thoughts of "others" also!! Specially those who would tell you how or what to think!

REALITY is not only "golden" but IT is existing in all the hues and colours of LIGHT, including relatively (not absolutely) "more and/or less light" ... Colour, being LIGHT (or electromagnetism), is a WAVE/particle duality, with frequencies and wave lengths; the colour does not remain the same. IT MOVES and changes across TIME. To be REAL or to EXIST means to MOVE and change or trans-form.

Don

4d-don | Tue, 08/30/2011 - 15:34
Gilana's picture

What if....

What if it turns out that colour is not light or electromagnetism? What if science proves tomorrow that it is caused by sound? Or some other heretofore unknown vibration from outer space? What if Color does not "move and change across time?" What if time is not real? What if to be real or to exist means to stay the same, unchanging, eternal?

The thoughts you are propounding are not yours...they are things you have been told by science, by other people. This is the difference between knowing from personal experience and obediently repeating a lesson you have learned.

Instead of regurgitating, what about opening yourself to something new and beyond the tired old facts that you are defending? Truth is new and fresh - this very moment happening and available, not "proven by science." But the only reason to want to really know (by experience) more is to be humble - to say, "I don't have it all - there is more to know. Please teach me." And in order to receive it you have to be vulnerable.

How can you receive a penny if you don't first unclench your fist? What if having a true guru means giving up the need to be right? And using personal maturity, vulnerability, and intelligence to receive? You don't have to do what s/he says (God knows my guru says nobody does what he says!). But we are trying to get past our kneejerk responses, our prejudices, our prepackaged knowledge to be able to open our hands.

A golfer has to do a lot to change his golf swing...first he has to admit it isn't the best he can do. Then he has to find somebody he thinks can do it better. And then he has to stop doing it the way he thinks best and try it the coach's way. If the coach is wrong, he can always go back to the old way or find a new coach. But he can't change without surrendering "his" way

If you are happy with your golf game, then fine. Stick with it. If it is the pinnacle of your dreams, if you don't want to or can't imagine going higher, nobody can fault you.

If not, you can watch golf matches and pick up clues from the pros. You can try new things you and your friends think of or read books for clues (watch out...!). Maybe you'll improve..but you are going to have to get a lot of people to agree with you to know how well you are doing.

That might be your way....I however will hire the golf pro. And amazingly enough the only one who thinks he's a better, different, or higher person than me, is you. Just because he is clearer doesn't change his value as a human being, just because someone is older (or younger), or a teacher or a student doesn't change their inherent value. Those are all value judgments - things that you have adopted without thinking, things that are untrue.

All human beings are of equal value no matter what they do or know. There is no lower or higher - that is a deception of the ego, which needs to categorize in order to function, to protect. But the ego must be made a servant to the divine in order for whole(y) life.

Everything I have said, I can point to direct experience in my life which has provided the insight.

And a question for you - you say you exist with your friends in understanding and compassion and joy. Where are those qualities when you speak to me?

Gilana | Tue, 08/30/2011 - 16:57
4d-don's picture

What IF (the conditional) is for Doubters!!

There are searchers, and then, there are finders...

Hi Gilana...

To reply to your questions:

1. Colour is derived from the spectrum of Light, and it is electromagnetism ... That was discovered in the 1850's by the second great UNIFIER of physics and "thinker" (after Isaac Newton) James Clerk Maxwell who united Electricity, Magnetism and Light (they are all of the same "wave" or field.) That is a fact and no religious "what if's" will ever change that ...

Maybe in some different UNIVERSE where religion is more "rational", it may become a fact there, but in this UNIVERSE, that is a fact ... I know that because I can think and no "religion" will make me doubt that, so as to sell me their "ism" and fantasies ... I have been convinced by my GURU, Master Maxwell... I did not simply blindly OBEY ... My teachers convince me using logic, mathematics and physics, and they encourage me to test everything and refuse and reject what did not "compute" ...

2. The seven "nodes" of the western diatonic music scale (ladder) of sound and the 12 nodes of the chromatic western scale, discovered by Pythagoras and his "Mystery school", has been studied by many "thinkers" (musicians, physicists, philosophers, healers, etc...) and all agree (a rational concensus unites them, not a religious dogma) that LIGHT is not created by SOUND (the wave length is too long). Maybe the other way around (light makes sound... lightning?).

We don't need a religion or a GURU to attempt to make (invent a fantasy of) light to be created by SOUND. Although it can be said that a ratio exists between some frequencies of light (from ultra violet, to the visible spectrum (colour), to infra red) and some sounds, (from ultra-sound, to audible sound to infra-sound (50 hz and below)), to which one can attach a "note" ... The furthest (in space and time) black hole (center of a galaxy?) astronomers register is vibrating at a "Bb" some 57 octaves below middle C (on the piano)... gravity waves??

Some healers such as Barbara Ann Brennan (see her book: Hands of light) have developed some "so-called" healing techniques using sound and light. These techinques are still under "study". (Barbara Ann Brennan was a physicist at NASA before her current chosen profession of "healer"... her's is a very rational approach to some very controversial techniques.

3. Now the vibration of space itself, as it expands could theoretically be the source of LIGHT (just a far-out theory). We know that the EM wave has specific frequencies and that the visible spectrum is but a small part of the whole wave... beyond the visible spectrum is the Ultra-violet, x-ray, gamma, and more.... And below the visible spectrum is infra-red, radio waves, and some very, very long "gravity waves", (to at least 57 octaves below middle C), or light years long, etc...

But we know (by thinking) that pressure creates heat, and also light, both heat and light being part of the EM spectrum. (stars, galaxies, etc...)

http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2003/09sep_blackholesounds.htm

4. To stay the same means to die ... and since death is an illusion, trans-formation being the REALITY, we can also say that MOTION is the reality and that TIME is the measurement of MOTION or change. Hence TIME is not the REALITY but MOTION is ... For anything (CREATION) to exist, it must BE in MOTION and changing. No guru will make any thinker doubt that ...

But some wise men/women do state that TIME is an illusion ... not an "arrow", and that is very obvious to anyone who thinks. If SPACEMOTION (not SPACETIME) is a reality, then the dimensions of MOTION (or time) also open in 3d, just like space does. So reality is 3d of space, together with 3d of MOTION (angular momentum, trans-lation and pulsation ... or spin, orbit and pulse). (Symbology: The Star of David or the Seal of Solomon, the tetrahedron of Toth, the Egyptian.)

These are not all my "original" thoughts, but I have accepted them and hence they have become what I THINK as possible (at first), probable (next) and then maybe TRUE... but not "absolutely" true as a dogma, I can change any part of my belief at any time ... Hence I am free to MOVE in my thoughts ... And we will, so as to CREATE the NEW reality.

I think it is religion which regurgitates the "self-illuminated" inventions which are the religous scriptures or knowledge of the distant PAST ... This knowledge (science) is not of old MYTHOS which has to retreat as new LOGOS enters with logic and reason. The Dogma of religion, to be blindly believed, is scriptural, and tribal from centuries ago, and it is really just "fantasy" or MYTH ... "God said" etc...

And the so-called "creator" is not even a UNITING God as the "singularity" (ONE) of physics which becomes the theoretical Big Bang, the Small Bang or the Big Stir. But the religious God is an emotional, favouritist, elitist, racist, sexist, homophobe, tribal and sectarian God.

NO THANKS... GIVE ME LOGOS... You can keep MYTHOS in case I need it later in my old age, ... of to entertain the children.

I don't have it all, but neither do you, or your GURU. I can relate to ONE which is ALL. Life is for LIVING, not to be OBEYED ...

I have no problem with someone needing an other, a friend, a mate, a companion ... but the religious who come from "foreign lands" to evangelize as if we needed to be saved or to be made to obey so as to later open our "wallets" and our friends and families wallets, is what I am not "compassionate" with ...

See how they love is what the Christians used to build their "empires" and dessimate the local spiritual populations ...I say, there would be a lot more followers of the "concept" of love, claimed to be from a mythical Jesus (who later became their Christ (Messiah, Saviour), if it wasn't for Christians, who are not really "LOVING" ... But many are "evangelist, imperialists, profiteers, power-hungry and they use religions to further their very "MATERIAL" goals.

We won't be fooled by another GANG of illuminated representative of another MALE God, who do not remain in their LAND, tucked inside ONE where they live, but journey to other's countries with their "goal" of gathering numbers ...

Religion is simply another form of imperialism and colonialism... If they want to be spiritual, then they can go inside and relate to SPIRIT ... One does not need to relate to PEOPLE or MATTER. But the "empire builders" do!! and they are here from "somewhere else" building their empires... not being friendly and helping out but asking that all "kneel" and "bow" to them. How Brahman!! How a revival of the racist, sexist, homophobe, elitist "caste" system.

We have SPIRIT right here, we don't need others to teach us about LOVE or compassion ... We can see how "loving" and compassionate their societies and their "disciples" are. Even the new ones they gather here do not become more "compassionate" and help their neighbours, their societies, the poor and needy. They tend to help themselves and serve their new MASTERs, promoting their "isms"!!

We have the JW's who come to our door, even when we ask them not to, and we are not very "compassionate" with their "arrogance" either, as they come and interfere with our being at ONE, and as they attempt to tell us that we are SINNERS or NEEDING them and their concept of their HELL which awaits us if we don't adhere to their "GOD".

NO thanks. I tell them to go home and relate to their ONE-ness also.

Don...

4d-don | Tue, 08/30/2011 - 23:56
4d-don's picture

The Unification MANTRA!

Hi all...

SPIRITUALITY UNITES, RELIGION/SPIRITUALISM DIVIDES.

If we look back at prehistory, we find bewildered man assigning to different natural phenomena, different controlling powers or "DEITIES". Over the millenia, man's quest for an understanding of the Universe has been to perceive disparate phenomena in terms of a minimal set of simple principles. Today, looking back we see the logic of Occam's Razor (literally: "A satisfactory proposition should contain no un-necessary complications"), or an economy of hypothesis - a far cry from prehistoric times (pantheism, animism, etc..).

In the words of F.J. Dyson (375), "... the very greatest scientists in each discipline are UNIFIERS. This is especially true in physics. Newton and Einstein were supreme as unifiers. The great triumphs of physics have been triumphs of unification. We almost take it for granted that the road of progress in physics will be a wider and wider unification."

1. Sir Isaac Newton - Unified gravity on earth with Universal Gravity.
2. James Clerk Maxwell- Unified electricity, magnetism and light.
3. Albert Einstein - Unified space and time into the Minkowsky SPACETIME, then unified SPACETIME and gravity.
4. Louis de Broglie - Unified (Newton's) particles with (Huygens's) waves.
5 Paul Dirac - Unified quantum mechanics with (Einstein's) special relativity
6. Salaam, Weinberg, Glashow - Unified electromagnetism with the (atomic) weak force.

etc...etc...etc... Tran-forming society and TRUTH!

Religions have historically divided people, friends, families, tribes, societies, nations, races, etc ... This is still OBVIOUS and almost self evident ... look at and read our planet's history, and/or the current NEWS!!

These great UNIFIERS of science are more "GURUS" than the religious fanatics and charlatans of religion who produce nothing of value with their worldly self-titles and mystical self-delusions, but who divide the good people of our GLOBE (Planet), even to persecution, violence and war ... What a waste!

What new invention has come from religion? Don't say: Noah's Ark!! or the Jewish Magical "Ark of the Covenant" lol lol... But from their "god" we have some very terrorist "destructions"... either by (His) nature or by His (male) "chosen"!

Truth and knowledge does not come only from the religious or MYTHIC PAST (Mythos) ... New truths and unifications are being discovered and invented every day (Logos) ... the dogmatic religious truths of the past will be subject to change or will be subjected to "the dust bin" if they won't change.

Even Raja Yoga, the spiritual eightfold path invented by Patanjali (150 BCE), and meditation, contemplation or prayer, in the hands of some so-called self-titled "spiritual gurus" becomes a corrupt manipulation and a tool of control, and addiction or co-dependence, rather than "spirituality".

Don ...

4d-don | Wed, 08/31/2011 - 18:23
Gilana's picture

Mind

All mind. That's probably why you have so much fear and need to expose. You are simply trying to expose your own fears.

I'll ask again, because I'd love to know - what have you experienced directly? I'll know that it's true when your love expresses softly, inclusively, with reverence and awe.

See - your exposures don't help a true disciple, because they don't care if they are manipulated or controlled or all of the other "horrors" you warn against. The ego is worried about exploitation, the ego is worried that somebody might be more holy or chosen than we are, the ego worries about control, the ego worries about being right. We just don't care, because we are dropping the ego for something better...the divine. In the divine you can't get hurt--stuff may happen (seems to always happen) but it doesn't hurt you.

It's like when you are in love with someone - everything they do and say is ideal, wonderful, loving. You are smitten. It doesn't hurt, even if they are trying to hurt you.

But the divine state is settled down into that loving, unalterably, joyful, happy, aware and in love. So who cares about charletans? Let them enjoy themselves. In love is better than safe.

Gilana | Sat, 09/03/2011 - 19:35
4d-don's picture

I would rather MIND than MIND-less...

Hi Gilana...

I am not afraid of FEAR, having met it in its RAW form...

That game of FEAR is over for me ... Now I FEAR NOT!! Hence I don't need the "protection" of the merchants of fantasies.

* I rather MIND to MINDLESS emotions.
* I rather SPIRIT to "spirits", and/or SPIRITUALISM, SPIRITISM or RELIGION and the cult of a PERSON or IDOLS...
* I rather SOMETHING to NOTHING.
* I rather REAL to un-real or "illusion"
* I rather FREEDOM to SLAVERY or serfdom.
* I rather UNDERSTANDING using reason and logic, to Blind OBEDIENCE to what is called: mysteries, mystical, magical, miraculous, the un-seen, the un-explained, etc...

The miraculous thing about LIFE, Nature and/or the UNIVERSE, is that it is "understand-able" ... but only for those who don't forsake their natural "gift" which is the ability to KNOW, in exchange for the "trinkets" from self-professed and self-titled proxies of a "god" or "gods", and who claim to KNOW (Hence using MIND!!).

There is a saying in French: "What is clearly understood is easily transmitted and the words to transmit it come "easily".

What have I experienced? ONE, ONE-ness and some of ALL and not all of ALL ... YET !! ;-))

Just like you, your Guru and everyone... and not more (or less) than even the blades of grass and/or the rest of NATURE ...

Experience is a subjective thing and it is "limited" by the senses, including the 6th sense, or INTUITION ... If Ex-perience is of the "outer", as received by the senses and the knowledge accumulated by our "experts" (thinkers) and by our technology (invented by thinkers), then I also "in-perience" something else also ... And hence, I fear not to "stand alone", not needing a "gang" to belong to ...

I can walk in the dark and the MIND does not "manufacture", boogy-men... lol lol but I am also cognizant of the presence of predators, such as bears, racoons, cougars, etc ... I have not been "surprised" yet ...

The wise person does not rely on EGO to protect one from Charlatans, predators and/or "exploiters"... One relies on REASON ! MIND ... (Be good but carry a stick). I would not leave my "grand-children" or anything of value, in the care of those who don't use their "head" but are easily "manipulated" ... and/or those who think that "nature" will protect one from a "predator" ... Nature allows for Predators to exist so as to "cull the herds" from those without adequate survival instincts...

Those who are not aware that some of our species are "criminals" are the ones who become: STATISTICS ... for those whith "BRAINS" (thinkers) to formulate a protection mechanism!! You can give all you want to those who make "claims" if you want to. I will check the claims before I give anyone anything, including my "trust" and my "confidence".

Boy you sound a little "flakey", but like they say "down home", it's your life, you decide for yourself ... It's no wonder the asiatic "GODmen" are coming to North America. Some of us (or some of you) are just begging to be TAKEN ... But some of us are NOT!! Some of us will give ourselves to ONE directly and will serve ALL (not just some), even those who would serve and sell out to the DIVIDERS of the PEOPLE (the pseudo-religions) ... I will not sell out to the "hired hands" or the self-professed "Proxies". I will relate only to the ONE BOSS.

Some have a little more "class" in their SPIRIT, and hence they can wait for the "ONLY", or the "Worthy" ONE ... The SPIRIT...

IT is not a MAN !!

You are allowed to sacrifice your "safety" if you want to ... as long as you walk alone and no one relies on you.

Go in Peace ... Don't lure anyone else into the web of Cults of the PERSON (EGO?), usually "MEN" and self-created "IDOLS" under the name of "SPIRITUALITY" ... without warning one and all, that you are "sold". Before you become a proselytizer, an "evangelist" or a "Judas goat", use your head and check out the "claims" ...

I will continue giving my "BUYER BEWARE" Mantra !!

Specially after chatting with those on this site... !! Ah! Ah! Ah!... What a Mess ... What a Mess!!

;-))

Don ...

4d-don | Sun, 09/04/2011 - 00:36
4d-don's picture

Experience??

Hi all...

Just came in from my walk in the Mountains (forest) looking at the stars ...

Experienced:

* The Milky way and the Great Rift
* Vega (in constellation Lyra)
* Deneb (in constellation Cygnus, the Swan)
* Altair (in constellation Aquilla, the Mythic Bird (eagle?)
* Constellations: Hercules, Opphiuchus,Cassiopeia,
* Constellations, Pisces, Aries, Triangulum, Draco, the snake, Hydra, and more...

* Arcturus (in Bootes... Red Giant, 37.6 light years away) The light I saw tonight left Arcturus 37 years ago ... The light from Arcturus I saw 37 years ago now makes a perfect mirror symmetry in my "inner space", with the light I see today 37 light years away in outer space. The light from Arcturus opened two of the Chicago World Fairs.

* Constellation Andromeda in the eastern sky, next to Pegassus. With my binoculars, I saw the Andromeda Galaxy (Messier catalogue #31), 2.2 million light years away ... When the light I saw left Andromeda, there were no humans, no gurus, no religion, no human love, no human emotions, human hatred, human wars, etc ... and the light I see today will journey in my "inner space" for my lifetime ... and will never form a "perfect" symmetry in this "entity's" inner space as this carbon entity will trans-form ...

Perfection is not for HUMANS!! But it is a projections, or an "idealization" of MIND ... SPIRIT lives with, and is GRATEFUL for the "awesome" REALITY !! Mind can dream and create projections and fantasies!

* Ursa Major, with Ursa minor and Polaris (the pole star) and many other minor constellations (Coma Berenici, Corona Borealis, Lynx, Draco, etc...

Beside the planetary bears on planet earth, I heard (grunting) and the birds (I spooked), and the bats which flew around me (eating the buds I raised by walking, I heard the owls (Barred), (I see it most nights if I go out before dark), and many other quieter birds (doves, robins, tanagers, etc..) ... then I heard all the "preys" scurrying around (mice, rats, squirrels, etc...) in the underbrush ... All in the "dark"...

All in the "cathedral" which is the UNIVERSE ... Then I came inside and "contemplated" in PEACE, in harmony with Nature, the broader Nature, which includes the COSMOS, and amazed at the inter-active harmony ... And to think that some never experience the REAL world all around as they are in a "dome" of light pollution from our cities and the emotional pollution and societal rituals of people ... I am grateful ...

The less I see of people, the less I miss them with their silly midless emotional "games"!!

A Poem (song):

Bow like the Hemlock

When the pale moon shines on the pond at night
When the ducks lay down, and the bats sure fly
And we circle 'round in the arms of the Milky Way
And go spiralling out into a windless night

The old dog's a-barking at Orion
Sparkling in the Ocean of Posseidon
And we all bow down to each other's harmony
(And) we bow like the Hemlock* on a windless night.

* The Hemlock is a "humble" tree. The tops of the Hemlock always bow, unlike the FIR, and the CEDAR, the evergreen kings of the western forests. The Maple is dissiduous or naked in winter.

Posseidon's ocean is in the SKY!

Don...

4d-don | Sun, 09/04/2011 - 05:49
Isha's picture

Gurus- really?

Seeing all these great names posting messages here makes me enquire can any of them be enlightened or many of them are enlightened? By enlightened I mean someone powerful who can give the same he has to someone else even do clear-cut miracles without all the rubbish attached. If God can bring the dead to life what is life threatening cancer to Him? But then if you take it from someone else it's not God found in the plam of your hands when you are just as capable and who knows as to it's potency? It is a conveniance like getting a washing machine to do the job when all things Spiritual are best and most potent in their raw and natural form connected with the earth you came into without any baggage-I mean newborn. Child-like and born again into grace.

Isha | Fri, 09/09/2011 - 07:46
4d-don's picture

The "miracle" of LIFE!!

Hi Isha...

The many "great" names who post here can "CLAIM" to do all kinds of "clear-cut" miracles or cause super-natural events but I have not seen any actually do anything yet... They all claim that they can, but ??? None of them want to be "tested" or to perform under clinical conditions, using the "scientific method" and "double blind".

Hence it's all "pissing in the wind", careful or you'll get taken and get some all over you!! Most of their promises are for the FUTURE or in another world, the "after-life" or in "another life", both of which are simply "theories" of some but is rejected by others.

If ONE, what some call "GOD", can create a UNIVERSE from ITSELF or "nothing??", that that is the MIRACLE... and, according to Einstein, the miraculous-ness of the UNIVERSE is that it is "understandable".

Most of the so-called: GOD-men, attach all the rubbish so as to hide the fact that they can't do anything "clear-cut" miraculous at all and it is all a scam to take power (money) from other people... I say: GET A REAL JOB!! We don't need more preachers...

You're right... those who look for miracles must be blind to not see the many miracles performed by NATURE every day, hour, minute, second. A seed becomes a tree. A sperm become a "HUMAN". Try that GURU!! And some have tried: Research the word: GOLEM! (Jewish), and Frankenstein (European)!! And now we have "cloning"... but not by GURUS but by "science". Gurus can't do anything which can be "tested" or of much value.

I like the "grace" part... We should be GRATEFUL...

Don...

4d-don | Fri, 09/09/2011 - 15:29
4d-don's picture

CREATION??

Hi all...

In the beginning was the great cosmic egg. Inside the egg was chaos, and floating in chaos was P'an Ku, the divine embryo.

P'an Ku myth (China, 3rd century)

If God created the world, where was "HE?" (that should be "SHE/HE/IT" or "Shit") before the creation? Know that the world is uncreated, as time* itself is, without beginning and end.

Mahapurana (India, 9th century)

*"TIME" is the measurement of MOTION or CHANGE!

WE measure SPACE with rulers. (in meters, inches, feet, yards, miles, light-years, parsecs, etc...)

... and we measure MOTION with rulers and "timers" such as clocks. (sec, minutes, hours, weeks months, years, centuries, millenia, eons, light-years per sec, etc..)

Measurements have a beginning and end ... But there is always an "outside" to any measurement!! Measurements can be INFINITE, having a beginning and no end.

But ETERNITY is FOREVER with no beginning and no end... un-measureable.

4d-don | Wed, 10/12/2011 - 17:41
nalabonga's picture

What this got to do with the discussion here?

What this has got to do with the subject of this discussion which is the issue of a living guru? Why don't you post this in your blog? why spoil here the flow of the discussion?

nalabonga | Wed, 10/12/2011 - 19:00
4d-don's picture

Go with the FLOW ! Stop Bitching!

Hi Nalabonga

Please keep with the flow ... the discussion has to do with "gurus" who seem to think that they are "necessary" ... By what they teach or say? What did they say in the past? Has it been shown to be "accurate"? Ever? Their predictions, prophesies?

The religious and many so-called guru's, who would teach morality, stand on how "homosexuality" is un-natural and hence the rights of gays/lesbians/transgenders are an "abuse" of human rights? Are religions and Masters right there? Are most gurus teaching now, and have they ever taught compassion, acceptance, love, tolerance, or do they simply teach division? What about yours? Do the disciples generally follow their Master's stand on HOMOSEXUALITY, if the Master is a "homophobe"?

Welcome to the FLOW ... add your .05 Cents' worth, rather than bitching? Who is your "enlightened" MASTER who makes you this way? Are you like this by and of yourself?? Let me guess ... A CEO of Industry?? A military man? A businessman?

Don

4d-don | Thu, 10/13/2011 - 03:35
Isha's picture

Gurus really?

A living guru is not necessary as long as you know what you are doing and what your goal is. I went to a man who fancied himself a guru after his father he was very well educated but had no powers whatsoever. In fact before he died his father had given his powers to his wife who lived quietly and helped anyone who asked. She use to laugh quietly to his unknowing. To say that it means 'nothing' without a guru when you have true belief and rich experiance of your own is rubbish. We know some people are highly ambitious to become gurus and are attracted to fame and fortune and even an easy life. But think about what you have and are exhibiting to impress. The powers you exhibit and show others to convince them are they psychic or divine? Usually they are psychic.

Isha | Thu, 10/13/2011 - 11:52
4d-don's picture

Right on!!

Hi Isha...

You are a wise man...

I agree with your take on the "guru" issue...

Don

4d-don | Thu, 10/13/2011 - 17:02
4d-don's picture

Spirit is ONE, IT UNIFIES !! Religion Frightens and Divides!

Hi Isha

Gurus hide the reality of SPIRIT!! They prefer the "fantasy" of SPIRITUALISM which they can invent without ever showing evidence or PROOF ... Just WORDS !! To amaze and entertain the children and free them of their "charity" dollars... which would go to the POOR!

Here is a poem by a REAL UNIFY-er, James Clerk Maxwell, the physicist, multi-dimensional mathematician, inventor of the equations we call the "ELECTROMAGNETIC THEORY", which unifies Light (optics), electricity and magnetism ... It is thanks to Maxwell that we have the modern society we have: from the electrical revolution, the electronics revolutions, and the information revolution.

Now thanks to Maxwell and the "techology", WE, the PEOPLE (the numerous "last estate") will finally take control of OUR "society" and OUR PLANET ... Because elected officials can be "bought" and controlled by greedy corporations, our Representative Democracy will soon be replaced by "Direct Democracy" (voting on the issues DIRECTLY ... ON-LINE??) ...

Thank you, Great UNIFIER, Oh Master James C. Maxwell!!

Spirituality and Science reflect reality and UNIFY society ... Religion and SPIRITUALISM reflect fantasy, and DIVIDE society.

Isaac Newton is responsible for the first great Unification in physics (real temporal REALITY??), James Clerk Maxwell brought the second, Albert Einstein, the third, then the Quantuum theory, and now String Theory (or M-theory), etc... etc... ad infinitum!!

http://www.poemhunter.com/poem/to-the-committee-of-the-cayley-portrait-f...

To the Committee of the Cayley Portrait Fund

O wretched race of men, to space confined!
What honour can ye pay to him, whose mind
To that which lies beyond hath penetrated?
The symbols he bath formed shall sound his praise,
And lead him on through unimagined ways
To conquests new, in worlds not yet created.

First, ye Determinants! in ordered row
And massive column ranged, before him go,
To form a phalanx for his safe protection.
Ye powers of the nth roots of — 1!
Around his head in ceaseless cycles run,
As unembodied spirits of direction.

And you, ye undevelopable scrolls!
Above the host wave your emblazoned rolls,
Ruled for the record of his bright inventions.
Ye Cubic surfaces! by threes and nines
Draw round his camp your seven-and-twenty lines—
The seal of Solomon in three dimensions.

March on, symbolic host! with step sublime,
Up to the flaming bounds of Space and Time!
There pause, until by Dickenson depicted,
In two dimensions, we the form may trace
Of him whose soul, too large for vulgar space,
In n-dimensions flourished unrestricted.

(Cayley was another multi-dimensional mathematician who carried (supported, defended) the newly-invented (1837) three-dimensional (two sets of complex numbers) numbers system called: "Quaternion" Algebra, by W R Hamilton (Ireland), to Maxwell (1850) for his Electromagnetic Theory, which is still used today ... soon, the "magnetic" revolution!!

4d-don | Sun, 10/16/2011 - 17:27
Gilana's picture

So the questions is...

The question seems to always come back to "a man." It seems that those who would contend that "there is no need for a living guru" have been hurt by someone, or have "exposed" someone as not what they say they are. Someone who has not measured up to your standards or someone who has taken advantage.

I say to you that for the true spiritual path, you won't care what or who the guru wants. It has nothing to do with the guru. He may be untrue, people may laugh at him behind his back, he may take all of your money and time and service for his own personal grandeur.

It doesn't matter.

What really matters is: What can I do? What can't I do? What am I willing to do? What am I not willing to do? Right here. Right now! Can I humble myself enough to give up everything? Even to a charlatan? Can I give all for God? Can I transcend my own Ego? In this world - through actual tests, instead of endless talk about what I know? It's about you--not him or her. Because those are YOUR limitations or YOUR achievements.

It's true - you can achieve the first level of enlightenment without a guru. We all know one or two guys who went all the way.

Have you?

And even that! Enlightenment just means you know what is going on. It doesn't have anything to do with whether you are able to live in tune with it! It doesn't have anything to do with you. Sometimes a heart can love so much that enlightenment is triggered, but it was an isolated incidence and can't be upheld. Enlightenment just is, it's a process that is triggered under the right circumstances. The questions is: what are you? What can you or can't you do?

And we all want to say, "Well, I know myself." In trying to be objective about ourselves, I use the analogy of trying on bathing suits (for a woman, since I am one.) Women ask other women how it looks from the back, because we can't see. "Does this make me look fat?" A Guru tells you how you really look.

Which of us is objective about how we really look?

Isn't it more important to give up your opinions and beliefs about what you are (and how you look!) and ask someone else--if it means whether you will get to God or not? It all depends on who is the master - your ego or your desire for God.

And, if you really are all that - what could it hurt? You have already given up your ego (defense of the self). You are fully merged in God. Then what does it hurt to surrender to another person, a flower, a boulder...whatever.

P.S. Not every guru has to exhibit power. That's for children. The only power your guru must have is to stimulate your desire for the divine, to point in the right direction and to have conquered themselves. And the only way you will know if that is the case is if you are captured by him or her. Your desire will match the guru's achievement and your heart will bow to it (in other words you will be dumfounded by him or her - it will be a physical, emotional, mental reaction) and then the heart will reach to it, just like a baby reaches for it's mother, with as much intensity.

As a matter of fact, that is a good analogy - the baby reaching for it's mother....no thought other than "up!" Over and over. No emotion other than "take me! I want you!" Physically every cell in the body is alive, electrified, striving for unity. That is reliable.

Then what is left to say "no?" All is yes! With joy, intensity and love. The yes is to God -

Gilana | Sun, 10/16/2011 - 18:23
4d-don's picture

So the answer is...

Hi Gilana...

I'll start with your last remark.

I don't say yes to the "gothic, or germanic" word or concept of GOD, instead of ONE-ness or the CREATIVE (not Creator)ie: G-O-D.

I say YES to ONE-ness of ALL ... I follow no-one who says yes to a flawed religious concept which is MALE (the female word would be "Goddess", ONE IS: SHE/HE/IT or ALL). The word "G-O-D" includes heroes (Hercules was a god), emperors (of Rome or Greece), or any other members of pyramids of power of the aristocrats, or of the "self-titled" elite, or the tribal "priestly" class. (such names as: king, king of kings, lord, master, emperor,holiness, reverend, pastor, father, etc...)

I do not "reach" for ONE as a baby would reach for its mother. ONE is ALL... inside of all and around all and outside of all. I don't have to pray to ONE, beg ONE for favours or gifts, IT IS. IT is Everything, Everywhere, and Everywhen (the E-trinity). ONE and ONE-ness is a REALITY. Seperation is an temporal "illusion"... seperation disappears beyong TIME which is simply a measurement of MOTION.

I don't have to be "taken" like a child, by ONE as if by a "God", a mythological BEING which exists and resides outside ITS Creation ... thus creating a "duality": ONE and ITS CREATION (TWO). Those who believe in this myth, then state that ONE is good and perfect and its creation is bad, wherein dwells evil, an illusion and imperfection, as if PERFECTION (ONE) could created imperfection(ALL).

Gurus do not stimulate any desire in me. Certainly not for the DIVINE or the MYSTICAL experience for which we are all "hard-wired". We have that naturally. We don't have to call that a desire... it simply is the NATURE of things. ALL experiences ONE and ALL... by design. No one can sell that to me... it's like selling sunshine, rain, wind, or AIR. If I run out, then I will "desire" it. But the Guru (or any other fantasy inventor and/or salesmen) will not stimulate any desire in me for DIVINITY. I live where ONE IS all around and inside.

Anyone who asks you to lose your "ego" or any other emotions, is a charlatan. It is not possible or desire-able for one to destroy one's EGO ... The guru does not, nor does anyone else... EGO and the "emotions" are created by ONE, and they are created for a reason ... so as to not be TAKEN by predators, charlatans, etc... Anyone who wants to point to DIVINE will not ask you to destroy your ego and become "defenseless" ... but to control it, and not have the "emotions" control the self. One who is weak is soon manipulated, abused and finally eaten or used to attract other "preys" for the predators. Gestalt therapists state that one should push back when one is pushed, not simply to become defenseless, "give up" and "give in" ... Don't theach the children that !!

One should not care about what others say about how one look. One should not get advice from self-titled "amateurs", who play at religion and "spiritualism", under the guise of "spirituality".

You say about the "guru" : "He may be untrue..." Do you then believe someone who is "untrue"??

You say: "Can I transcend my own Ego"? YES... Of course... I am not one of those with an ego so large, that I think it defines me, or that I think I can save the world with my "pearls of wisdom" or my "knowledge". That is what I warn others about and what I expose in RELIGION and SPIRITUALISM, Cults of Personality etc... You seem to want to BOW to them and adore them as if they were "divinely gifted"... Many "psychotics" think they are "Messiahs" and therefore can "kill the body" so as to save the (invented) soul ... John Calvin (of the Protestant Reformation), was such a nut-case and many still follow his teachings, as if he was a "GURU" or a SAINT ... such a GURU is a little dangerous!! But then, the Vatican, and many religions was and are still infiltrated by many such "loonies" (not the Canadian dollar coin... lol lol) The Reformation did not stop the "lunacy" (from "luna" or "moon", the reflected light of mythic MAGIC!)

It does not have to be the individual who has been "hurt" by a "specific" guru or by religion in general. One simply has to read the history of religion and of "magic thinking" in general, to realize that the "hurt" and abuse is built into the predatory system of believing and indoctrinating others, that one person has a better path (for you) to reach ONE-ness, DIVINITY or ALL, than you (or any one else)... That thinking is "two dimensional" as if ONE can be more somewhere than in other "SPACES" and has to be "reached". God is allegedly more in "India, Mecca, Jerusalem (or NEW Salem), or ROME, or in the Himalayas, or in a church, in a temple, in a mosque, in an Ashram.

Those are all fantasies and falsehoods... they are not TRUE, they are inventions of "gurus", pseudo-religious and spiritualists, who tell UN-truths to manipulate others, their friends and family. Religion is an opiate, but the addicted are also co-dependents... The guru needs numbers, and some need someone to tell them what to do, how to think, and how to live...

We have reached "childhood's end"... it's time for adulthood and Sainthood for ALL who so desire, not just a few. To live is to be a HERO... to not "give up" is to be BRAVE...

I want ONE "out of doors" ... no more selling of ONE or (God), as if it was more at one place than others ... as if Churches or "experts" could lock it inside their "tabernacles".

AMEN...

Don

4d-don | Sun, 10/16/2011 - 21:01
Gilana's picture

Isha and don

You are both so very knowledgeable.

Gilana | Thu, 10/13/2011 - 17:48
4d-don's picture

Gilana...

Hi...

Back at you!!

Don...

4d-don | Thu, 10/13/2011 - 23:33
Elijah_NatureBoy's picture

Living Gurus Are Needed Sometimes!

Because most man are conditioned to follow their physical senses it's imperative that most have someone living the life for them to see. Usually most will not actually overcome karma because they haven't the internal directions and the physical guru can't impart such details which would cause them to overcome karma. In those cases, they still have to much karma for balancing in one life, therefore they are are destined to more discarnations.

There are a few who are spirit guided from childhood but discouraged from believing in their spirit friends or angels. Those who aren't discouraged their destinies are to overcome karma in that life and be an example for those who may have either been discouraged from following their spirit guides and are to balance their karma in that lifetime. This group will not need a physical guru to continue following, they will meet a guru and inquire of a specific detail and move on. They will often have different gurus to impart specific details they are in search of but they will not follow their example, they follow their own inner or spirit guide.

--Elijah "NatureBoy"--
Presenting SEEDS OF LIFE @
http://prop1.org/protest/elijah/nature.htm

Elijah_NatureBoy | Thu, 03/01/2012 - 15:04
4d-don's picture

Not "spirit driven" but through SPIRITUALITY, tucked in ONE!!

The ONE-ness of ALL!!

If I was Catholic (Christian), I would need to have confessed my sins and have had communion (or the last rites) so as to enter thier mythic heaven.

If I had done a "novena" to Jesus (confession and communion on the first Friday of the month, for nine = "novena" consecutive months), or to Mary (Jesus's earthly Mother - called the MOTHER OF GOD - ;-)) on the first Saturday of nine = "novena" consecutive months), then, I would be assured of their (spirit) presence when I passed from this world to the next, and they would take me to heaven.

And now, you say I need a GURU, and any GURU, not a special guru .... hmmm!!

I'm sure that every religion has their own version of what "I NEED" but is all this contradictory information really true?

Would Nature be like that? Does the cedar tree need the fir tree to be "complete"? Do we need anything but the CREATOR ... REALLY??

Spirituality does not mean "spirits" ... that is "SPIRITUALISM" ... and many charlatans claim to channel spirits or their messages. (Google: "spirituality" and "spiritualism").

The reason for the corruption in most religion is their reliance on such psychic or mental (intellectual) entities (spirits?) called egregores which are only the collective intellectual (mind) consciousness of the group ... as the group changes, so does their egregore ...

Time to get out of our tribal "dogmatism", that has led us to divisions and wars since the beginning of MIND, and to become citizens of one species, on ONE Globe, one solar system, one galaxy, one UNI-VERSE ... making our imagination subject to our intellect, not the other way around.

Welcome to the ONE-ness of our species ...

As John Lennon said: "... and no religion too ..."

Don

4d-don | Thu, 03/01/2012 - 17:50
gracie7's picture

Light and Sound Living Gurus

I want to reach at least self realization in this life. I have been trying on my own by following inner promptings but usually fall into confusion. So i am seeking a guru i can trust. There is a light/sound living satguru who has recentley accepted me as a chela and i resonate to most of his work, yet there are a few things he says that i just dont believe. For example, he says that all the miracles and ressurection of jesus christ did not happen and that miracles in general dont happen. This makes me uncomfortable because i know that miracles happen all the time. So I guess my question is, why would a god realized satguru not know this. Or am i being too idealist to expect him to be know everything. Does anyone have any insights?

gracie7 | Thu, 11/01/2012 - 00:08
Luz76's picture

He says so because he is not

He says so because he is not self realized.
You reached him because you have this desire to be self realized.

That guru that you mention is not the issue, he is just the reflection of your inner.

You must work on that desire of you to be self realized which is yet another type of desire. Question why really you want to be self realized and who is it in you that wants so and then get rid of this desire. It sounds paradoxical and it is so from the view point of the mind. You don't decide if you will be self realized or not, in this life time or not. Actually, when your mind sets it as a goal you do decide or rather influence it for the not.

Luz76 | Thu, 11/01/2012 - 09:23
4d-don's picture

Self-realization, Self-awareness or Self-Consciousness

Hi gracie7

To "realize" is an intellectual process and hence is a process of MIND ... not of Spirit! In Spirit one simply IS. Spirit (not being a "thing", but ALL) does not DO or "realize" but SPIRIT simply IS; it is REALIZATION itself. As Baba Ram Das said: BE HERE NOW (the title of his book). In Spirit, there is nothing to DO in SPACE, or no TIME large enough to do IT in. Spirit being ONE, there is then no goal to achieve, no rituals to adhere to.

Most Gurus will keep you around them with "time-wasters" ... This is a heads-up!!

Hence:

One can see more clearly if one categorizes the natural evolutionary process of Consciousness, relization or awareness as:

* Simple Consciousness (animals are conscious or they are aware, for example, of "having a leg"

* Self Consciousness (most humans through evolution, are now conscious (aware) of being conscious of "having a leg". So they have evolved into the ability to abstract, to think, to plan, to imagine, to dream, to fantasize, etc ... (René Descartes (1596-1650) said: "I think, therefore I AM")

* Universal (or Cosmic) Consciousness (spiritually evolved humans are aware of (or realize) being conscious that ALL (not only humans) is in reality: ONE. (Our science (and hence our intellect) is now at that point also.

The four forces of physics are almost all UNIFIED into a "Theory of Everything" (TOE), or the "Grand Unified Theory" (GUT). We know that hydrogen and helium are fused from (or in) the energy of the Big Bang (or the Big Stir), and we know that all the other (heavier) elements (up to iron) are fused from hydrogen inside stars. And some large stars, as they go "super-nova" or explode, create or fuse the other natural (96) elements from iron to Uranium. ALL IS ONE!!

Hence, the "self" is relative and is in MOTION or in a dynamic process of change. Realization, being a "mind" process, is in MOTION (measured as TIME) and is dynamic ...It constantly is in a state of flux and forever changes ... Then, as most "wise" mystics would say: THE JOURNEY is the THING!

There is no goal of "realization" that can't simply BE, instantaneously (no time involved). If you want to be "self realized", simply BE!! You already are to a degree ... most humans already are through evolution, not because we "earned" it. There is no Time involved in the process of realization, it can BE "instantaneaously".

There was not more "Creator"(what some call GOD) in the past, and there will not be more "CREATOR" (what some call GOD) tomorrow, there will also not be more "SPIRIT" tomorrow or more "relization" tomorrow, except at NATURE's TIME. And the realization of tomorrow will simply have replaced the realization of yesterday.

We are not in control of the process of fusing Energy into matter from which eventually, we are made (i.e. Carbon). Hence, we can not realize our elemental self until we ARE elemental beings. In other words: NOW! Likewise with our "spirit" self. We realize our spirit-ness (our universality, our ONE-ness) as we place our "consciousness" in our SPIRIT more than in our "elements" or in our MIND.

Confusion is the first sign of learning ... or of change. Confusion can lead to knowledge and to "realization", but keeping in mind that knowledge is also dynamic and it also changes. So embrace the "motion" which you ARE in NATURALLY ... you ARE evolving and you want to REALIZE consciously the evolutionary process you are experiencing at a very visceral level. That is good ... You are blessed...

It is ALL there for you to Be. You are forever tucked inside the ONE (What some call God) the "ONE-ness" where you live. You don't have to journey elsewhere in SPACE or in TIME, and you don't have to seek out an "elemental" form (a guru ... a wiser man) to realize what is now "mind" and what eventually will be experienced or realized through evolution as "SPIRIT" which it also IS NOW in REALITY.

To realize SPIRIT, BE in SPIRIT, and do not "go" to humnans and their structures ... To realize self, BE in your self.

You can BE directly !!

Have a JOYOUS Journey.

You (and we) are not going anywhere, beside where you (and we) ARE already, you (and we) ARE simply realizing, or ARE BEING "conscious", or BEING "aware".

4d-don | Mon, 11/05/2012 - 06:52
Gilana's picture

guru

self - realization: If you really want it, you can have it. But be careful for what you wish for. It is the biggest challenge available to most people. That means - really.

This guru: Don't judge by what you resonate with or don't. If he's real he's going to say and do all kinds of things you don't understand or approve of. Then in a week it will make sense. Then the week after it will be a lie. Then the week after you will be uncertain. etc.

Does Jesus appeal to you more? Become his disciple. You can. If you can keep Jesus as a teacher, and this guy you are talking about as a guru, do that.

Just understand: a guru is there to disturb you. That is his job. He will keep disturbing you until there is nothing left to disturb. A teacher is there to teach, to present information that you can understand, to guide you, and to make you more wise. But he can't get you to enlightenment.

A guru can. A guru is there to work with and on you until you can do it yourself. He will do anything it takes - that's why you hear all of these strange stories about gurus. That's their job.

Gilana | Fri, 11/30/2012 - 19:43
4d-don's picture

The Beginning?? The End?? The State of Process of Reality!!

Hi All...

The STATE of the PROCESS of REALITY...

Latin:

Cum nullo principio, in excelsis, ex UNO Pluria
Cum nulla finientem, in excelsis, e pluribus Unum.

Translation (English):

Without beginning, in the highest from ONE, many.
Without ending, in the highest, from many, ONE.

Enjoy...

Don

4d-don | Fri, 11/30/2012 - 18:51
shiv_vandana's picture

Need of a living Guru.

Jay Shiv Shakti. Jay Gurudev.

Any one who is blessed with a real Guru will agree with me that the necessity of a Guru in body is inevitable. In fact a real Guru helps a disciple to grow in material life also. Every step of life has various challenges which can be met very easily if one has a Guru.

A real Guru is a person who preaches the truth about spiritual life as well as material life. As my Shri Sadgurudeva Shriyogeshvaraji tells, "Development in material life is always helpful for a sadhak to grow in spiritual life. If you see all as creation of the almighty then you cannot deny the material life. Our very existence in the material world is a sign of a divine plan. Only most of the people get deviated without proper guidance and live a life which was not planned for them."

So need of a Guru in body is very much needed. A real Guru shows you your strength instead of making you weak by unnatural miracles.

shiv_vandana | Tue, 05/28/2013 - 15:26
4d-don's picture

Necessity for Guru is "inevitable"??

The "Necessity for a Guru is "inevitable". What a tyrant!! When people refuse the Freedom which is given as a gift from ONE (and ALL), then one is left with the tyranny of RELIGION!! That is where someone else that the person decided for one's self on the important decisions of life...

As only one person can walk the path of the individual, then only the individual should have the POWER to decide... that is the FREEDOM of LIFE...

I don't adhere to any path which claims to be the "ONLY" path... I decide for myself... All should do the same and then, we will have rid the world of the scourge of "RELIGION"...

4d-don | Wed, 05/29/2013 - 14:33
Nathyogi's picture

Guru Is Necessary

Sans teacher, one cannot learn even science.
Sans Guru, what one knows is only nescience.

*** Salutations to the shoes of Guru Siddha Nath ***

Nathyogi | Wed, 07/23/2014 - 11:03
4d-don's picture

Be FREE and in MOTION like light, sound, wind ... or ENERGY!

For those who desire and crave a "static society" (i.e. not dynamic) where nothing has to change (through Motion?) because everything is "ordained" from the beginning by a fantasy god and/or his (male?) "elite", the gurus of society, (these)soon stop being able to be (or to become) "enlightened" and they are soon unable to face and solve any of the "problems" (situations) which arise and which would need the accumulated knowledge of the moment ... in other words, those who simply obey (without reason), lose their "Creativity".

The Creator has given all of its creation a version of the gift of creativity ... for man, that is at work in what is called MIND ... then religion (or religious man) invented the "soul" as a method of controlling their society ...through RELIGION's rituals, as allegedly ordained by a God (a fantasy) and "his" (male) elite.

There exists "THE CREATIVE" (a process) and we, the enlightened of mankind, possess CREATIVITY (a way to change one's self and one's surrounding). It's not only the religious elite who have it. They (the self-anointed gurus) attempt to remove it from the rest of creation by alleging to channel the knowledge of the ALL ... all except themselves of course ...

Stand up and be FREE ... that means "responsible" for your own LIFE (or Actions). Or be a slave, a "living dead", and repeat others' mistakes and live in your self-created "illusion" ... not in REALITY!!

4d-don | Wed, 07/23/2014 - 16:30
Nathyogi's picture

The Wise & Fools!

The wise follow the one
Who has followed someone.
Fools follow the one
Who has followed none.

*** Salutations to the shoes of Guru Siddha Nath ***

Nathyogi | Thu, 07/24/2014 - 04:20
4d-don's picture

The Fools and the un-Wise!!

Fools blindly follow anyone and/or everyone. (even self-titled "gurus" and con-men). Hence, they will repeat over and over the same mistakes, even to the tragedy of: "over the cliff", which not even lemmings do! But look at religion!)
The Wise follow no one, but by REASON, learn from the Wisdom (and the mistakes) of ALL and strive to not repeat the same mistakes of any ...

One, the former leads to an un-thinking and un-reasonable religious tyranny, leading to a "static society"
The latter creates new knowledge, leading to a "dynamic society".

One, the former, thinks wrongly that all knowledge is eternally from the PAST... accessible only through "revelation"
The latter can learn (from the past and create new knowledge and...) change and progress and shape the future which even "the ONE" has left un-REALIZED ...

One, the former, can join and be accepted by the disciples of the flat-earth societies, and other such "after the fact" proponents of pseudo-knowledge by decree (religion? and other faith-based pseudo-knowledge).
The latter will participate in the REASONABLE endeavours of ALL and will join any group and leave any group at WILL!!

Teach your children to learn from all of life, and then through reason (not blindly), to sometimes lead and to sometimes follow ...

Teach your children to accept some wisdom from the past, and to search for the new knowledge of the future which is as yet un-realized and in-formation!!

4d-don | Fri, 07/25/2014 - 16:28
Nathyogi's picture

Re: The Fools and the un-Wise!!

Sans teacher, one cannot learn even science.
Sans Guru, what one knows is only nescience.

*** Salutations to the shoes of Guru Siddha Nath ***

You keep your teaching with you which are projected and propelled by your ego for you obeyed or followed none.
The wise never follow someone blindly like fools.

Nathyogi | Sat, 07/26/2014 - 04:34
4d-don's picture

This is a FORUM... for all to speak their opinions FREELY

You keep your religious teachings with your cult ...

You seem to have a superiority complex (that's a BIG EGO) and think that you can tell others how to live ...or how to think and speak.

I do no "obey" but I am not the first in all which I believe ... in some philosophy, others were there before me, but I share their beliefs through REASON... not through obedience.

You are from a past era which gave us the religious tyrannies and cults we now must get rid of so as to stop the wars and abuses by the religions and cults ... we will achive that through knowledge ... through REASON, not through the tyranny of "obedience".

You will not be "obeyed" by MOST any longer!!

But, nice try!!

So, RANT ON!! You and I (and ALL) will be FREE on this "tool" of "KNOWLEDGE" and REASON, which is the "INTERNET".

4d-don | Sat, 07/26/2014 - 15:02
Nathyogi's picture

Re: This is Forum.....to speak.....

Here who is preaching cult and religious teaching and who is driven by big ego and superiority complex all will be proved by our discussions.

1. The one who has not listened to anybody or followed none has no right to ask others to listen to him or follow him. This is a simple truth.

2. It seems you have inferiority complex, so you are accusing me of superiority complex.

3. Those who don't obey others are driven by their senses, mind, thought, discrimination, etc. all propelled and projected by their EGO. But those who obey others have no ego of their own.

4. Do you know the root of true religion? You are just blaming me of cult and religion.

5. I don't want you or anyone obey me. It is better if you obey your parents and teachers.

6. The first thing one should develop is obedience if he or she wants to get knowledge. All great souls and the wise affirmed this.

7. It is the nature of hypocrites and fools to accuse the one who speaks truth.

8. This is a forum, everyone can express what one feels as truth. This can be accepted or rejected by the reader.

Nathyogi | Sat, 07/26/2014 - 17:02
4d-don's picture

1. I listen and reply to all

1. I listen and reply to all ... I agree with those who make sense using logic and reason. And I don't try and stop others from expressing their opinion on any subject... Do you? I dont' ask for "rights".. I take them. My right to speak is not for you to "take away". You are not the "dessiminator" of rights...

2. You try and push your "way" on others using only FAITH ... I ask of all to use reason and to agree only if they can find a reason to agree ... Not your way which seems to think that he who follows is superior (wiser?) that those who would lead in their own lives and not follow any thing or any "way" which does not make sense.

3. Not true ... Those who don't follow others, lead their own lives and share common thoughts and philosophies with others ... but not as followers but as co-travelers on the journey of life. One is linear (one ahead of the other) and one is "side-by-side" as friends, in respect not in awe or in worship. The "class" system is not going to survive the age of "information".

0You are using your MIND and Ego to write these words ... You obey others and you express your EGO here!!

4. MAN is the root of RELIGION, not "the ONE" or ONE-ness ... and MAN is also who seeks freedom and equality, and fraternity. You attempt to make us followers ... I attempt to make us FREE and to dare to use the light of REASON and LOGIC... and not to rely on the blindness of faith alone ... I only use FAITH or "trust", when I can't use "reason" to decide on the veracity of a statement.

5. But I adhere with those who make sense ... and I don't simply obey (not even my parent) any teacher who does not make sense. A teacher who demands "obedience" is not trying to make me think using reason, and logic and hence is not a true teacher ... to create followers is not what a teacher should do. A teacher should create Leaders. I don't adhere to that servitude and slavish methodology. We have now passed the age of Enlightment ... and we are not "living dead" any more. It is time to move towards "infinity" and not rely on religion with their "eternal" truths which are shown over and over by science to be in error and false.

6. Not true... Develop the ability to think critically and you will develop "knowledge" and that knowledge will be TRUE. In the arena of the search for truth, the opinions of ALL deserves respect and there is no "elite" with more access to truth than the "common" man. Obedience will not give TRUTH but will create disciples and followers... We are creating "creative" leaders and responsible adults... not obedient children who are motivated by rewards by "souls" (an invented word), in some other imaginary realm.

Truth is the search for REALITY, not fantasy and imagination... and certainly not "sensuality" or the bliss of the "faith-based" adherent to tricks, mental games and made-up rituals.

8. I agree... It is a FORUM! You can support "FREE SPEECH" and you can allow the right of all to express themselves FREELY!!

Teach that!

4d-don | Sat, 07/26/2014 - 22:23
4d-don's picture

#7... (passed over this number)

7. You seem to be quick to call names: "hypocrites" and "fools"... You should try and use REASON and logic and see if you still are so "quick" to call names... as if that is not "EGO". "Hypocrites" is used to describe "faith-based" adherents to some "ism" who preach at others and do not adhere to their own teachings ... does that not sound like the "faith-based" adherents to religion and the cultish spiritualist gurus? Since I don't preach at you to adhere to anything I say, but to rely on your own REASON and LOGIC, how can I be a "hypocrite"? Does that not describe you more accurately?

If you use your own REASON and LOGIC, I may say you are wrong or in error, but I will not be able to say that you are a "Fool" ... A fool is one who believes others too readily!! Fools are "gullible" and "easily fooled" or "tricked". Hence the word "FOOL"!! You or any other "faith-based" proponents or spiritualist con-men will not easily fool me! Ooops! Is that "ego" again?? lol lol

4d-don | Sat, 07/26/2014 - 22:42
Nathyogi's picture

Re: 7 ...........

Fools call and abuse the wise as fools and hypocrites abuse the truthful as hypocrites. It doesn't change their positions. Truth is truth. The wise and truthful don't mind their comments.
If one is not a fool and hypocrite one should not matter about what one is calling him.
Thanks for accepting that you are a traveller and not reached the destination. I appreciate your truthfulness.
I wish you all the best to reach your destination as early as possible. Then our discussions will be more meaningful.
Hari Om!

Nathyogi | Sun, 07/27/2014 - 15:43
4d-don's picture

Do you think that you are at your "destination"??

Oh! My God!

It does not affect the wise when the "holier than thou" spews his/her hatred of others by falsely calling them: "fools".

I simply dis-agree and I try to defend those whom the "religious" fanatics, who think they are now "saved" or "liberated", and who now think themselves inside their "Brighter World", as they point at my co-humans!! The fool is the one who calls others a fool. The un-wise is one who sees his brother a fool.

4d-don | Sun, 07/27/2014 - 17:28
Nathyogi's picture

Re: Oh! My God!

That is why I have told you truth is beyond your imagination and understanding for you follow none.
Here (Gurusfeet.com) none is religious fanatic. You do not know the root of religion, how can you call someone or other as religious fanatic?

Nathyogi | Wed, 07/30/2014 - 05:42
Nathyogi's picture

Re: I listen and reply to all

1. It is simple truth with reason that who listened to none has no right to ask or even beg others to listen to him For he listened to none. He should only has right to express his experience being listend to none. It is well understood by the wise who is disseminator and who is not.

2. Not only me all great souls and saints followed someone or other. I want to follow them for I respect my elders and parents and teachers. I have never pushed you to come to my point. We are only discussing. The feeling of pushing in you is due to being unfaithful to parents and teachers and the complex in you.

3. So you want to be a leader who is driven by his own ego. To understand what ego is beyond the understanding of niguras. This website is Gurusfeet.com which means surrender to the will and orders of Guru. This cannot be known by niguras. The name of website is based on the faith and belief which is beyond the understanding of skeptics. Here in this world one needs to go to school or university to get a recognized education. Here you cannot move without obeying teachers and parents. Only unfaithful forget it and boasted by ego thinks he got it without the help of parents and teachers.

4.Here your root of religion is understood. Without a Guru what one knows is only nescience is proved. The wise can judge well who is truthful and right. You only know abusing others who are faithful to their parents and teachers.

5. So far you have met only selfish teachers. Your experience is very little. The worldly father likes and tries his son or child to surpass him. How can one be a truthful teacher or Guru who does not like disciples or student surpass him. This is beyond the understanding of those who are selfish and for them whole world looks selfish. You have to grow a lot spiritually.

6. Fools try to project their ignorance as Bliss and knowledge. Only fools follow them. You seem to be unfaithful to your parents who gave you this body. The wise are faithful even if a little help is offered to them. Again this is beyond your understanding. Unless you practise truth it cannot be understood.
Truth is a fantacy and imaginations to fools and hypocrites of religion. No doubt about it. But if you project what fools know as knowledge and wisdom cannot be tolerated.

8. Your last sentence teach that is the proof of your ego which is beyond your understanding.

Nathyogi | Sun, 07/27/2014 - 15:16
4d-don's picture

1. It is simple truth that

1. It is simple truth that one who simply spews rules to be obeyed and not the matter one believes to be the truth, wastes his/her time in the falsehood of religious protocol arguments rather that in "truth". Anyone who lives, can add to this conversation, whether their truth comes from themselves or from another ... That is the Truth, HERE!!
We can now discuss the matter at hand ...
One's truth does not have to come from a "guru"... and a guru is not necessary in one's (some of us) life. Not having a guru does not make one a fool or un-wise. Many wise PERSONS do not and did not have a guru ... Life is the TEACHER... All of LIFE!!

2. The feeling of "pushing" comes from you who, in your initial post, call some "wise" (those who think like you) and others "fools" (those who don't think like you). Now discuss the topic at hand without your "rules" about who is "wise" and who is a "fool"... You don't seem to know. You point at, and fool yourself if you think you can influence others with such "rhetoric" in this age of "reason" and Enlightment. To call on the name of others to rationalize your false arguments is not credible... Which other Great saints or "great souls" think like you ... Great by who's standards?

Many wise men think like me ... That does not prove the veracity of my statements today. Many fools think like you. That does not prove you a fool.

3. When I go to school and University, I don't simply believe what some "teacher" says. I am given the reason (in my language usually). Those who seek credibility by using "foreign" words do not impress me. Even not being an "elite" (of classism) versed in your culture, I take it upon myself to discuss "states of being" of humans, as they relate to me, I don't rely on "esoteric" words which only I can define with some ancient scriptures form my culture's past to justify my statements. I will start using "french" and "latin" terms and then, I will presume to be "wise" as you seem to want to do. NO!! I jest... I will not do that... That is not "wise" ... but it is somewhat arrogant! Ideas belong to no one. Say something "true" and all will agree with you.

4. You don't seem to hear what you speak... YOUR original post was that "some" are wise and some are "fools"... You claim to know that as "TRUE"?? Who is egotists? I am here to tell you that you are not being very "true" or enlightened with such statements... Don't teach that to your children as "spirituality" eh?

What will come next? That one has to become a "living dead", like a corpse in the hands of his guru (funeral director), to be "saintly"?? lol lol NOT TRUE!!

5. I met many wise teachers. But was never asked to believe them simply because they were teachers ... My parent taught me respect but not "blind obedience", but because what they taught, they thought was accurate, and they left me the right to dis-agree and put forth my arguments. But I also met very many arrogant "religious" teachers who thought they had knowledge directly from GOD and thought that they should be obeyed, as if they were "the messengers" of their "invented" god.... I did not agree and still don't. You seem to know a lot about fools and the un-wise... Are you pointing at yourself??

6. Say something about the issue at hand... To constantly try and make others into "fools" and "ignorant" just reflects back on you ... We all know who you are by now... but you still don't know who you speak to ... You don't listen well. You seem to "know it all"!! A jack of Everything (all trades) but a master of NOTHING!

You make assumptions left and right, but we all know that when one "Assumes", one makes an "ass" of "U" and "ME"... It's a joke!! Stop calling your brothers "names" and you may find more followers... and not need to go on other's forums to try and reach an audience...

8. Since you recognize ego so well, I guess you are also "egotist"... If, with one finger, you point at others (as fools), then there are three fingers pointing at you...

4d-don | Sun, 07/27/2014 - 17:18
Nathyogi's picture

Re Simple Truths

1. Fools think that they are asked to follow blindly.
One must be careful in choosing a Guru.
Truth cannot be reached without a Guru. You are free to follow your ego. Nobody objected to it. You yourself admitted that you are only a traveller not reached the truth yet. Have discussions after reaching truth.

2. It is foolish if you think I have pushed you or anybody. The fools are full of preconceived ideas. They are not open to truth is proved here again.

3. Who asked you to blindly believe someone or me. It is again your foolish assumption and pre-conceived idea.

4. Some are fools and some are the wise and they contend each other. It goes on like you and me. Let the truth decide who is right. It is again your foolish assumption about a Guru.

5. I have never asked you or anybody agree with me. I will never ever agree with fools is crystal clear. It is better if you agree with truth. But this is beyond your understanding.

6. Why should I listen to a fool's empty talk and he is only a traveller and has not yet reached the destination. It is certain that fools never reach it.
I listen to and obey saints, sages, the wise and devotees of God, who boldly declared what is truth after reaching the destination.

8. You are free to think of me whatever you like (egotist, fool, hypocrite, etc. etc). If it pleases your heart to call me so, so be it. It does not change my position. Fools abuse the wise and harlots abuse virtous women. The wise and virtuous women are unaffected by it.
When truth is pointed to fools and hypocrites, they start abusing the one who speaks the truth. This is a universal truth and all seekers here are quite aware of it.

Nathyogi | Wed, 07/30/2014 - 05:35
4d-don's picture

That's Life!!

1. There are no conditions of "having reached" anywhere to enter into a "forum" and discuss... Some claim to have reached a "goal" or touched some inner state but that is subjective and of the "ego"...
You can reply to this forum when you are much wiser, and not so "??"... Until then, you can discuss like everyone else. You are still on "the journey" like the rest of us.

2-3-4-5-6-7. It seems that your vocabulary and your ideas (brain potential) are somewhat limited. If all you can reply to anything said to you is: "that is foolish" then you don't add anything to the conversation ... You don't seem to know much for one who is making such claims about "others" ... Say something of substance so we can discuss ... name calling is not very "enlightened"... and not very "wise". It could be that you are exposing your own character with such "revelations" about yourself... are you short of substantial ideas... Maybe go inside yourself and find something good. The "name-calling" you keep repeating, if that is what comes form your "guru" then chose another one.

6. If you don't want to listen and converse, then why are you here wasting your time. This "forum" is for thinking people who want to discuss, not simply call names. There are other forums for "name calling" ... Go there!!

8. Are you now knowledge-able about harlots also... You know that because you have reached "a goal"... What if you meet a woman who does not abuse anyone? Will you still call her a "HARLOT"? Your imaginary "harlot" may in reality be "wise". You denigrate and demonize others to attempt to make yourself sound "elevated"? That is your idea of "wise"?? Gee! Find a better guru than that... there is ONE, inside of you ... Go There and you will find something better than the living "guru" concept you seem to want to promote ... Your arguments are not very convincing.

It seems that you have not reached the "destination" (as if there is such a "fantasy" destination in REALITY)... Heaven? Nirvana? lol lol You have not even looked inside yourself. The "(inner) Journey is the THING ... and it is ETERNAL (no beginning, no end) ...

Have a safe journey and learn to love your neighbour (love even those you call "harlots" and those you call "fools" ... You might find that some are wiser than you and your "living guru"!! Good luck!!

4d-don | Wed, 07/30/2014 - 15:58
Nathyogi's picture

Re: That's Life!!

1. You are only a traveller and has not reached the truth. This is admitted by you. The traveller needs the help of those who have reached the destination. Not the vice versa.

2. 2-3-4-5-6-7. It seems you are interested in grammar and vocabulary. Go to an English teacher and learn from him. This is my way of speaking. I have not asked you to come to me. If one is not foolish or hypocrite one needs not to be worry about the vocabulary. Truth is beyond speech. It cannot be understood by those who are interested in flowery, favourable and flattering speech. Truth is bitter to swallow. Only the wise can do it.

6. I am not wasting my time. I am engaged in discussions so that the wise and truthful can understand truth. The forum which is a part of the website is Gurusfeet means it is for those who believe and practice. Not for those who engage in empty talk and try to prove empty talk is truth. This sort of talk will no longer be tolerated if someone wants to prove empty talk as truth.

8. I am knowledgable about fools and hypocrites and those who do empty talk also and much more. Let the woman ask me. Why are you asking for a woman. The wise say "Only the lustful are interested to impress women."
Who can denigrate or demorilize the one who has already denigrated and demoralized himslef by not serving parents and teachers.
I am here not to convince you or anybody. Spirituality is a matter of free will and self-conviction. It is foolish to think that someone can convince somebody by mere commenting in a forum.
You keep your advice with you for
"Fools listen to the one
Who has listened to none."

I have already clarified my stand. You are free to think about/of me whatever you like or feel.
Truth stands alone, on its own. It does not need any support from anybody.
I am sorry if you are hurt by my comments for truth is hard to swallow.
I wish you all the best to reach your destination.
Hari Om!

Nathyogi | Thu, 07/31/2014 - 04:48
4d-don's picture

The Journey is the Thing...

When you have something worth responding to, I will engage. Until then, happy trails on your Journey... It's obvious to all that you are having some problems on the journey, finding only "fools", and not many "wise" ones.

When you find "wisdom" inside yourself, you will be conscious of how long the journey is in reality.

Bye for Now... Be Here NOW!!

When you have "clarified" your own mind, you will see much wisdom all around you. ONE is WISE! ONE is no fool! ONE IS all around you! ONE IS!!

Relate to ONE and to ALL!!

B4 B3 B2
B4 B2 Be ONE!!

4d-don | Thu, 07/31/2014 - 14:43
Nathyogi's picture

Re: The Journey is the Thing...

Fools, hypocrites, the proud, the low minded, the lustful, the truthful, the wise, liars, etc. etc. are used by every scripture of the world.
There is nothing wrong if one uses them.
One is what he is and the soul knows better and is the witness of the truth that one carries.
If someone says to me a fool, I don't become a fool and if someone says to me a saint, I don't not become a saint.
I am what I am and you are what you are (a traveller groping in the dark).

Hari Om!

Nathyogi | Fri, 08/01/2014 - 04:19
4d-don's picture

ONE is not a "HE" (male) ... IT is an "IT" (All genders) !!

When you are near "ONE-ness", you will see only "ONE-ness".

You will not see the duality which you now espouse...

Keep on the Journey until you find "something" positive and not all "negative" around you...

You have just listed all your "qualities" (above in your last comment ... so be it!

I am not what you say nor am I what you are! I am FREE! I am THAT I am!!

4d-don | Fri, 08/01/2014 - 15:35
Nathyogi's picture

Re: ONE is not a "HE" (male) ... IT is an "IT" (All genders) !!

Many men before you also said that they were free and declared "I am That I am." I knew them all by their works.
Go and teach to fools who believe in such stories.
For such people exist 'Fool's Paradise".
Repeating the words of the scriptures and saints like a parrot cannot set one free.
Don't fool your soul with empty bookish knowledge for the wise said. "For fools Atma or soul is an invincible foe.".

Nathyogi | Sun, 08/03/2014 - 04:52
Elijah_NatureBoy's picture

IT is not one, IT is Zero!

Because man don't recognize every number, 2 thru 9 and any combination of them that includes zero, have a negative of the same value which equals zero when added together, they often say one is the whole but it isn't, Zero is.

One actually means a half of zero, 2 means two fourths of zero and etc. all the way to infinity. The zero in ten means "complete series of the nine fractions" and the number 1 in it means a complete series and every succeeding number before a zero means as many complete series, and again, to infinity, therefore, there is zero whole numbers in the numbering system, everything else is a fraction of that only whole. That must be why you said "ONE is what he is" instead of "ONE is what IT is.

If you desire to understand more concerning life, go to my site, the link below, and study life from the whole perspective.

--Elijah "NatureBoy"--
Presenting SEEDS OF LIFE @
http://prop1.org/protest/elijah/nature.htm

Elijah_NatureBoy | Sat, 08/02/2014 - 00:54
Elijah_NatureBoy's picture

My Comprehension Of The Matter!

"Educated" {defined as objectively observing, participating and reasoning in order to comprehend and being able to explain their findings} "man" {defined as mind able to comprehend all things} will explore objectively all suggested avenues believed will point them to wisdom and go away richer after incorporating everything they determines is of value into their comprehension of life. When one knows not and know not that they know not they will gouge themselves without digesting [reasoning with] to eliminate the waste, as one does carnal food, and in their attachment to either the source or the knowledge they find themselves intellectually asleep because of their judgmental mindset the unreasoned knowledge leaves them.

In my search for comprehension I have discovered that actual guru directs his listeners not to be attached to them nor their teachings and suggests if the teachings are the truth the student's own heart will reveal it to them and when referring to said guru's teachings the student will not only give the words of the teacher but their own comprehension of why their guru taught those words. That is how the educated man who is a conscious student of life will conduct themselves. Denouncing the concept another believes are true takes one's out of their discipline or allowing everyone the right to eat from all knowledges and digest it according to their appetite.

--Elijah "NatureBoy"--
Presenting SEEDS OF LIFE @
http://prop1.org/protest/elijah/nature.htm

Elijah_NatureBoy | Sun, 07/27/2014 - 01:05
Elijah_NatureBoy's picture

My Comprehension Of The Matter!

"Educated" {defined as objectively observing, participating and reasoning in order to comprehend and being able to explain their findings} "man" {defined as mind able to comprehend all things} will explore objectively all suggested avenues believed will point them to wisdom and go away richer after incorporating everything they determines is of value into their comprehension of life. When one knows not and know not that they know not they will gouge themselves without digesting [reasoning with] to eliminate the waste, as one does carnal food, and in their attachment to either the source or the knowledge they find themselves intellectually asleep because of their judgmental mindset the unreasoned knowledge leaves them.

In my search for comprehension I have discovered that actual guru directs his listeners not to be attached to them nor their teachings and suggests if the teachings are the truth the student's own heart will reveal it to them and when referring to said guru's teachings the student will not only give the words of the teacher but their own comprehension of why their guru taught those words. That is how the educated man who is a conscious student of life will conduct themselves. Denouncing the concept another believes are true takes one's out of their discipline or allowing everyone the right to eat from all knowledges and digest it according to their appetite.

--Elijah "NatureBoy"--
Presenting SEEDS OF LIFE @
http://prop1.org/protest/elijah/nature.htm

Elijah_NatureBoy | Sun, 07/27/2014 - 01:05
4d-don's picture

Go and do the Same!!

I agree and I find that ALL (and not only humans) are my teachers on this road of LIFE. I include "NATURE" as a teacher also.

And some teachings I hold for a long time, but not for eternity, and some evolve and change with time. To some I give credit for some wise and long-lasting thoughts and some I praise as stepping stones.

It is the elitist religious and/or "spiritualist" guru which repels the thinking person. Just like FANTASY is not REALITY, so Spiritualism is not Spirituality.

The Raja Yoga of Patanjali is not a "cult", although many cults claim it as their own.

4d-don | Sun, 07/27/2014 - 17:40
Elijah_NatureBoy's picture

There Are Messages In Everything!

We agree, there are messages in all forms of life we are able to obtain when we are objectively observing them, therefore everything is a guru to the wise. There are so many lessons to obtain that no one person can convey them all to us, we have to go to the source and ask them what IS THE LESSON they have for us.

The "elitist religions and cults" are necessary when we recognize the law of Karma or "reaping and sowing" govern all life on earth. Because of them man do the many destructive things to other life types so when the life-forces of the other life types become man they have to to it to the life-forces in the other life types.

It's all an endless cycle of learning by experiencing only to forget and do it all over again.

--Elijah "NatureBoy"--
Presenting SEEDS OF LIFE @
http://prop1.org/protest/elijah/nature.htm

Elijah_NatureBoy | Mon, 07/28/2014 - 02:23
4d-don's picture

Eat and Be Eaten...

And when we realize that all of LIFE's forms, survive by eating other life forms, we can see that this process is part of REALITY and is not about to dis-appear, no matter how much we pray or cry. Even the "holy" will be ingested by other life forms.

Thus, LIFE, we say, is good, and the experiences of life are to be experienced like a wave: Up and down, in and out, left and right, etc..., but there is no "stasis" in Life... All is in motion and ALL move!

4d-don | Mon, 07/28/2014 - 15:30
Elijah_NatureBoy's picture

Agree!

That is the essence of what I said, thus, we understand why there is no good nor evil, only a knowledge of it which means they are abstracts without any concrete means of manifesting except in the mind of those who judge things to be.

--Elijah "NatureBoy"--
Presenting SEEDS OF LIFE @
http://prop1.org/protest/elijah/nature.htm

Elijah_NatureBoy | Mon, 07/28/2014 - 22:40
4d-don's picture

It's relative!

As physicists are apt to say: It's all relative. Our subjective existence on this earth is relative. If one is being eaten, it's relatively bad, relative to eating, (to survive). If one is eating, it's relatively good relatively to being eaten (so something else can survive).

If one eats for sensuality, (to please the senses), then the senses (taste, smell, sight, sound, feel) decide on the relativity of the ingestion. What make taste good, may not be good for the body (relatively, that is)

4d-don | Tue, 07/29/2014 - 15:30
Elijah_NatureBoy's picture

We See Eye To Eye

Please continue. Although we see the same thing your wording is something new to me, I appreciate having a new way to say what I so often say. I would appreciate having you call 347-205-9691 at 2000 hours (8 pm EDT, USA) Sundays, Tuesdays and/or Thursdays to give some input to some of the questions I answer.

--Elijah "NatureBoy"--
Presenting SEEDS OF LIFE @
http://prop1.org/protest/elijah/nature.htm

Elijah_NatureBoy | Tue, 07/29/2014 - 22:07
4d-don's picture

Sorry!

I am on "dial-up" ... no High speed internet!

4d-don | Wed, 07/30/2014 - 16:01