Is a living guru necessary?

admin's picture

Average: 4.7 (21 votes)

The following comments were posted originally in the blog Importance of Baba's Punya Tithi but the author asked to remove them from his blog post as he felt they deviated from the original subject.

We think the comments have value as they discuss the important issue of whether a living guru is necessary for evolving spiritually. Therefore we opened this new forum thread and moved the comments to here.

You are welcome to continue the discussion and post your opinion on the subject.

madan_gautam's picture


It is really a lesson for those who want to achieve liberation in this life without a GURU and advocating for false preachings. They are just misleading the seekers as per them there is no guru, no path and you have to achieve nothing. This is really concerning for the spiritual seekers.

I bow to all GURUS who showed & are showing the right path.

madan_gautam | Sun, 11/02/2008 - 04:55
Phroggy's picture


"They are just misleading the seekers,as per them there is no guru,no path and you have to achieve nothing."

Obviously, this would not be the teachings of a guru, so who would make such a claim?

Phroggy | Sun, 11/02/2008 - 07:35
Omkaradatta's picture


It sounds like the 'teachings' of neo-advaita, which denies Self-realization and suggests that suffering is part of 'what is', therefore there's nothing to be done about it, etc. Very shallow stuff that tends to do nothing but feed ego and sell books / create pretend gurus. There are a few folks on the NDS list who propound this stuff, and you prob'ly know who they are...

P.S. our friend above seems to be of the mind that 'guru is required' and into fixed paths and such, which is something of an opposite to neo-advaita, and just as lazy and unconscious, in my view. As usual, nobody is interested in the 'middle path', the narrow way that actually requires attention, consciousness, awareness, self-enquiry, sincerity, earnestness, etc. Wow, if we could just light some incense and chant "Ram Ram OM Ram" and become enlightened :-p.

Omkaradatta | Sun, 11/02/2008 - 08:09
madan_gautam's picture


>>>>Obviously, this would not be the teachings of a guru, so who would make such a claim?
---This you know better,if not ask your inner self ,that will reply you.That is different matter you share that truth here or not.

madan_gautam | Mon, 11/03/2008 - 14:29
Phroggy's picture


Okey dokey, so clearly I am being accused again from a place of ignorance, and so I'll attempt to clarify.

"No guru"
Clearly, there are gurus and many are Self Realized (though far more are not.) I have my favorites and I'm grateful for their pointers and presence.

"No path"
Clearly, every seeker is on a self defined path, but the destination is often a mirage. To me, an appropriate 'path' would include some serious ego work so that one may become conscious. From the state of consciousness, one can then look honestly at attachments and perceived needs and begin to weaken that ego structure. Self inquiry can then be used to help notice that the ego structure has no reality at all, and the same inquiry can be turned toward the Self, absent the mentation that has been a part of the process until now.

While this may be believed to be a path to Self realization, it is not. It's a process of disillution of the illusion of self. There is no path that will actually take one anywhere because there is nowhere to go and nobody to walk it.

"Have to acheive nothing"
The above ego work could be fairly described as achievement, but it should be realized that it is not the achievement of Self realization. The person who believes he has achieved Self realization is deluded, since Self realization is the realization that there was never a person present who could ever acheive.

Phroggy | Mon, 11/03/2008 - 23:51
madan_gautam's picture

Okey dokey ~

I do not find any attempt of accuse to any body.I am unable to understand why there is so much misunderstandings.But there are attempts to misunderstand self and others.
Do not let the energy flow in false imginations.

madan_gautam | Tue, 11/04/2008 - 05:42
Omkaradatta's picture


You want the authority as a fellow who plays Guru on the internet... do you teach folks in real life? You want people to listen to you, but you don't listen to your Self. Only, you're from India and say "OM", so you get other people to listen to you. Great! Enjoy it. Maybe you get pleasure here on a web site, and suffer everywhere else.

You won't contact me, don't want to talk directly. All of it is the anonymity of a website, where people can hide out and pretend to be a guru. In your true Self you aren't interested, only in the authority over others, "imagined others" based on words coming over the Internet.

Maybe nobody is even there, maybe it's just a computer program sending words automatically. But you don't care, you get the feeling of being superior anyway. You haven't realized the Self, and have nothing to teach that isn't already in a book. Everything you say is a repetition from a book, like a parrot.

That's all... the matter is concluded. Let the intelligent, insightful people decide for themselves. Those who are unintelligent, you can teach them, as they don't care either if someone is authentic or ignorant - only Indian and quoting pretty words from some text.

Omkaradatta | Tue, 11/04/2008 - 06:11
madan_gautam's picture


Sorry for your comments.
This is your inner reflection.
If only books can give awakening,then all will get awakening and there is no need of any GURU.
Books are dead one while a GURU is living Authority.But it seems as you are totally against this system.
If you are also interested in awakening as you are not,you are welcome(rest as you are projecting yourself a realized one ,is not true).
What you want me here?I can just express my self here in words only ,reast for practical ,you are welcome to India,that i will show to you.
If you are awakened,as you are claimimg here,can you awaken any seeker directly/immidiately?
I can do it.
I am not a self styled guru as you claim so.I am from a old age lineage and dully authorised by my mentor.
People are coming to me throughout worldwide for awakening/seeking,you are also invited.But before that you need to surrender your ego,arrogance & ignorance.
i am helping here also to the truth seekers personally.
but that is personal only,not to discuss.

madan_gautam | Tue, 11/04/2008 - 06:34
Omkaradatta's picture


> Books are dead one while a GURU is living
> Authority. But it seems as you are totally
> against this system.

Guru who speaks only quotes from books is not a living authority, but a false guru -- even if ordained by somebody and popular. I'm very much for Self-realized gurus, and against false ones.

> People are coming to me throughout worldwide
> for awakening/seeking,you are also invited.
> But before that you need to surrender your ego,
> arrogance & ignorance.

Even if you were authentic, having realized the Self there's no need here for guru. But I wouldn't waste any time even if I were seeking truth. Anything you say can be gotten from books already, so I could go to and save the trouble.

Don't waste any more time talking to me... focus on people who are stupid and only care about lineage and pretty words. Even if I'm wrong, a genuine guru wouldn't keep wasting time calling someone names, accusing of "ego, arrogance, ignorance" instead of trying to help them.

Omkaradatta | Tue, 11/04/2008 - 06:51
madan_gautam's picture


>>>>>>Don't waste any more time talking to me... focus on people who are stupid and only care about lineage and pretty words.

Who is talking to whom,it is best known by the spiritual souls here.People are not stupid here as you are saying.They are much more intelligent than you and understand the reality.By calling people here stupid,what you want to prove ?you want to prove that you are genuine here and other are just fishing at this plateform.
It is your ego which is creating problem here and making such a wonderful site the ego battle of yours.
If you are so much against GURU & Lineage,then what are you doing here at the plateform of guru's & projecting yourself as guru.
I accept that you are a good scholar and slatue for it,but spiritual world is nothing to do with scholars.
Go on my dear go on,i am happy that you are here for entertainment of people free of cost.You have to do nothing with spirituality but with your ego satisfaction.This is a disease in spiritual world, as one think that he has achieved the truth and is Enlightened one now.I have gone through your blog in which you have explained your mental state from your childhood to till,and as per me it is a mental disease not the sign of Enlightenment as you think and claiming here.
Being your well wisher i will advise you to seek medical help for all those disorder.You keep on log in here even throughout the night & day contineously and do not go for sleep.An Enlightened one is a just oridinary man with oridinary life style.This is disorder in your system somewhere& need a proper medical attaition immidately.
Some one here calling the people the fools some one stupid and proving themselves super.
Keep going on with your so called borrowed truth & false Enlightenment.You are not at fault,GOD has given you this assignment and you are doing your duty sincerely.
I am glad that people are after me and prooving me wrong.I am honored by their titles and accept it humbly.
I accpet all their titles for satisfaction of their ego(false I).
May GOD bless them with more power for their sincere deeds.

madan_gautam | Tue, 11/04/2008 - 09:30
Omkaradatta's picture

Final reply

"Enlightened one is a just oridinary man with oridinary life style."

I have it, you don't. You claim to be able to awaken people immediately, proclaim seekers all over the world coming to see you, proclaim kundalini powers, etc. Again, you are merely projecting your own deficits onto someone else. You are the one who has no ordinary lifestyle, can't be satisfied with it. And you know it.

There's no point in continuing a conversation where somebody just keeps accusing others of their own deficits. It's boring. Ego is boring, including yours. Enjoy it, if you can. The discussion is over.

Omkaradatta | Tue, 11/04/2008 - 09:44
madan_gautam's picture

Final reply

Why are you running now?
You are running now because i have shown you your original face.
The original face of so called truthfulness & so called false Enlightenment.
Why you have changed your original name here and adopted a Indian name.Do you think that after so called your Enlightenment(false) you become Indian?
There is nothing to do with name,this is your false projection to fool the people.
The true Enlightenment can happen any where in world & no need to change the originality.
When your inner self has not changed,then what is fun of changing in your name?Just to project your self realized?
It is nice that you yourself started this dirty game of false fight due to your ego & now you yourself is withdrawing it.
My best and sincere wishes are always with you.You are always welcome to contact me any time,i am always ready even in mid night.
Hope now you will contribute here positively and no further nonsense at your end please,as we are here not to satisfy our personal ego as i hate ego and egoistic people specially in spiritual world .

madan_gautam | Tue, 11/04/2008 - 13:33
Omkaradatta's picture

Answer to question

"Why you have changed your original name here and adopted a Indian name.Do you think that after so called your Enlightenment(false) you become Indian?"

Out of respect for my guru, Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj. He helped here so much, I love Him deeply and choose to be in His lineage.

"The aim is to awaken yourself to the faith in the self, 'I am'. That is the entire purpose. So whatever is inducive to that development you may accept. Suppose you have faith in a living guru, then accept a living guru. If you have faith in a guru who has left his body, accept that guru." - from "Experience of Nothingness"

Are you going to flame my love for my guru, too? What's left for you to attack? You even searched my childhood problems and told me I needed medical help. Will you now insult me for caring about my guru?

"You are always welcome to contact me any time,
i am always ready even in mid night."

Email your telephone number: fewtch ((at( and we'll see if you'll talk. I think you're just putting on a public display. If you cared, you would have already sent your number, contacted me to talk privately, in stead of this public demonstration. Give me your number and let's talk.

Omkaradatta | Tue, 11/04/2008 - 19:22
ahambrahmasmi's picture

Comment on guru and path

Dear embodiment of love,
see if u don't have a road or a vehicle how can u go to ur office or to the working place.If we don't have a market which sells vegetables and other goods where can you buy all those things.Like that in each and every one life a guru is entered in order to show the right way to their student's or to the devotees to get rid off them from their sins and make them as a holistic persons. This is the way to understand the guru and it's concept.With out going to school and college, is it possible for you to learn the subjects just by buying at shops and reading at home.In order to get the knowledge we need to attend the classes, training's,practical's etc.Then only u r eligible to speak about knowledge,guru,shakthi path.May god bless u.

ahambrahmasmi | Tue, 07/05/2011 - 04:40
madan_gautam's picture

Guru and its importance

Its really very unfortunate that some people are here(in lobby) who do not believe in GURU and do not know the importance of GURU.Though they are followers of some GURU and preaching here the findings/truth of the same but denying the importance of guru.Even Lord Rama & Lord Krishna were having their spiritual GURUS.Can a child born without parents?Can one pass his/her graduation with out going school & with out teachers?
One should know who is GURU,Guru is not that person in individual but God acts in HIM as a GURU.
GURU is regarded as the highest one even above the parents in India.When one is following the Indian Guru and spreading His messages,then one should go in depth of that culture and understand about the roots of that culture.Without that neither one can do justification with self nor with others.Its just ignorance and arrogance with self false pleasure.
People are here in habit of jumping every where off topic, just to satisfy their ego and proving them selves right.
If some one have faith in GURU then he has,spirituality is matter of faith,surrender and belief and not argument & not even putting words in their mouth.
The world of spirituality is for those only who are innocent like child only, but people think that they have achieved HIM with their arguments& scholarly attitude.
I would like to say that these things are quite true for materialistic world but not for HIS Kingdom.There one has to go with pure heart and with complete surrender not with self styled manner.

madan_gautam | Sun, 11/02/2008 - 15:08
Omkaradatta's picture


Nisargadatta Maharaj:

"The aim is to awaken yourself to the faith in the self, 'I am'. That is the entire purpose. So whatever is inducive to that development you may accept. Suppose you have faith in a living guru, then accept a living guru. If you have faith in a guru who has left his body, accept that guru." - from "Experience of Nothingness"

Omkaradatta: I'll take it further - as long as one awakens to faith in the self, 'I am', no guru is required. Things just happen, in truth there is no ego controlling anything. No person is choosing things. Life is the real path, which is free of castes and systems and limitations. Life is unafraid and free, boundless and unlimited- that is the Self.

As for the 'personal' comments, accusations, etc., there is no answer possible. Sorry if you feel offended, though. God doesn't take your dictations on who the spiritual world is open to, etc. As for "self styled manner", all real and genuine gurus have it. The rest are parroting from books.

Omkaradatta | Sun, 11/02/2008 - 18:01
Phroggy's picture


Madan, your battle with false gurus and ignorant seekers is a battle with yourself. No amount of condemnation of others will resolve that issue for you. You'll need to get seriously honest with yourself.

Phroggy | Sun, 11/02/2008 - 18:45
madan_gautam's picture


>>>You'll need to get seriously honest with yourself.
My dear,
After back from inner journey, life is just play,dance & joy with Bliss and needs to be celebrated with just relaxation & a cup of hot tea or coffee and nothing like seriously honesty with oneself, as one is back to his home.
If you are also established in your true inner self then you are welcome & invited for cheers.
If not then i am here for such so called established ones to be disturbed , so that they awaken from their false dream of Awakening/Truth and accept reality.
But if someone is desperate and determined for so called suicide in Spiritual world,then no one can help him, not even GOD.

madan_gautam | Mon, 11/03/2008 - 16:40
Omkaradatta's picture

My dear

The use of the term "My dear," sounds sarcastic above, you don't really care about who you're talking to. Don't bother telling anyone about reality.

All your own issues are being projected onto others, and the others are then condemned. Even words "I" and "you" are being reversed. That is the action of the falsehood, the ego. Take responsibility for it.

Omkaradatta | Mon, 11/03/2008 - 23:35
madan_gautam's picture

My Dear

You are again here for unnecessary justifications between the two people.What it is called, you know?

>>>>you don't really care about who you're talking to .....

Oh now i have to attained your classes for this.It mean you are projecting yourself someone out of this world/Supreem, and other have to ask you ,how to talk to you.
Do not play the politics of words here,no one here want your words,but practical guidence/awakening.Rest about theory they can read from books.
Yes I take the responsibility ,the responsibility of saying truth and breaking the so called falsehood.
If you are not that part of falsehood ,then why are you so much disturbed?
This shows some thing wrong with you.

madan_gautam | Tue, 11/04/2008 - 05:33
Phroggy's picture


My dear Madan
One of my favorite 'gurus' is Jed Mckenna, because he wastes no time with ego placating practices and has a low tollerance for those who come to him with their heads full of ignorant beliefs that he has to empty out before he can be heard. A word that he uses a lot is "further". It means your bliss bunny mind state is not enlightenment. Go further. It means that your earth shattering spiritual experiences and your grasp of spiritual concepts is not it either. Go further.

Phroggy | Tue, 11/04/2008 - 00:15
madan_gautam's picture


I am happy that you are supporting my vision.
What i am saying is that the journey is infinate and one has to go further & further and there is no end.
I am going one step ahead now.That even after so called Enlightenment,the journey does not stop and one has to go further deep & deep.
The inner journey has endless path.

madan_gautam | Tue, 11/04/2008 - 05:41
Phroggy's picture

To infinity and beyond!

So we have an unconscious guru who is waaaay beyond enlightenment and can cause others to become enlightened. Something never before accomplished in all of human history, and yet here you are on a forum wasting your precious time dreaming up accusations about people you don't even know and clearly can't understand, and then denying you did, like some spoiled brat. The world is full of fools.

Phroggy | Tue, 11/04/2008 - 07:48
Omkaradatta's picture

Madan_gautam - ridiculous claims!

Quote from Madan_gautam:

"If you are awakened,as you are claimimg here,can you awaken any seeker directly/immidiately?
I can do it."

What an absurd claim -- even Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj and Sri Ramana Maharshi couldn't do it. Even Adi Shankaracharya couldn't. Jesus couldn't, and the Buddha couldn't either.

This claim here establishes Madan_gautam as a false guru, and also evidences 'projection' accusing others of arrogance, ignorance and ego. I recommend everybody to stay away. Don't approach a guru who claims to be able to awaken you directly, as awakening is to *the Self, oneself* and can only be found within. He wants power over you, to control you. Don't give it.

Omkaradatta | Tue, 11/04/2008 - 08:52
madan_gautam's picture

To infinity & beyond

>>...The world is full of fools.
yes but who accept it?
Do you accept the same for yourself?:)

madan_gautam | Tue, 11/04/2008 - 08:21
Omkaradatta's picture


In reality all are equal, but in dream-world of mind/ego somebody is always above or below someone else. This is the world we communicate in here.

Nisargadatta: "Words create duality between us."

Those who are foolish, are fools. Those who aren't foolish, are not fools. Mind divides and creates duality, and there's no equality on this level. Behaviour like a fool means: You are foolish. Even a child knows it.

Omkaradatta | Tue, 11/04/2008 - 08:59
madan_gautam's picture


Who will tell it? Only yourself no one other.
But so called enlightened people are here with authority to certify others as fool.

madan_gautam | Tue, 11/04/2008 - 09:01
Omkaradatta's picture

Nobody is branded

Nobody is a fool, but many who habitually say foolish things and behave foolishly are called so conventionally. It could be called a vasana, but there's nobody really there who can be branded "fool".

Behaviour alone is happening now, or it isn't. No person is there to either take the label, or not take it. If this isn't obvious, the Self isn't realized.

Omkaradatta | Tue, 11/04/2008 - 09:06
sonti's picture

Jed Mckenna: a skeptic desiguised as spiritual

It's good that you mention Jed Mckenna as one of your favorite gurus because this Jed Mckenna is not spiritual at all and neither do you (he does use the word "spiritual" in his books and their titles). Apart of being a gimmick, he is merely a psychological acrobat appealing to skeptical westerners who wish in their heart to be spiritual but refuse to abandon the mind and logic and therefore are blocked completely to the paranormal and metaphysics.

sonti | Tue, 12/15/2009 - 20:59
Brahman's picture

True but..

I totally agree with you that every 'true aspirant' (this expression seems tautological, but in actuality, if you look at it carefully, it is not) needs a 'living' guru, i.e., a guru who is still alive.

However, this applies only to those who have not been initiated. That is, to those who have no guru, and are seeking one. They need a living preceptor, who could guide and instruct them.

As to those, who have already been initiated but whose gurus have shuffled off their mortal coil, they needn't look for ANOTHER 'living' guru. This is not only wrong, but also very injurious to their spiritual life. They should continue with their spiritual journey following the teachings of the gurus, who have left this material plane.

Brahman | Thu, 06/03/2010 - 06:36
Swamy's picture

Comment on Comments

Sai Ram. I have read with interest the 4 comments so far posted in response to the blog. All of them raised important points which need study and a careful response. I assure you that I am not biased and will study each response carefully and will post my response in a new blog.

Sai Ram. Blessings.


Swamy | Sun, 11/02/2008 - 15:05
Omkaradatta's picture


Thanks, Swamy... I will be interested to hear your reply :-).

Omkaradatta | Sun, 11/02/2008 - 21:08
Swamy's picture

Many comments about my blog: Importance of Baba's Punya Tithi

Sai Ram. I read with a lot of interest the personal battles of various egos, who all claim to be Gurus, Masters, Realised Souls etc. I wanted to post my responses to the first few comments (as already mentioned) but after reading these clashes of ego, I have decided against that. I may post a blog on the need for a Guru as and when The Guru decides it should be done. That would again the Guru speaking through my ego's filter! The white light gets modified by the filters passing through.

If one stops and looks and listens to the inner voice, one realises the futility of arguments and discussions. All such arguments and discussions actually strengthen one's ego! There are as many paths as seekers and the real enlightenment or realisation comes when the Dhyana (meditation), Dhyata (The person meditating) and Dhyeya (the Object of Meditation, the goal) merge into one. This is brought out beautifully in Sri Lalitha Sahasra Nama Stotra, a very powerful hymn to the Divine Mother. And also told by Sadguru Sai to His disciple Shri Hemadpant in Sri Sai Satcharitra - Chapters 18 and 19 of the English Edition. Sai Ram. How that happens depends on the individual seeker (how he is moved and in which direction depends on the destiny of the individual seeker). The game is played on several planes of consciousness. But it is a game. The player, the play ... every thing is part of the same Unity. Once the lamp is lit or once the bubble bursts, it is all over.



Swamy | Wed, 11/05/2008 - 10:20
Phroggy's picture


Exploring ego is not a futile distraction from the spiritual 'path'. It IS the 'path'. The grasping of the ego identity is the only thing standing in the way. It's true many will argue for the purpose of strengthening ego, but I suggest revealing it's ignorance instead.

Phroggy | Wed, 11/05/2008 - 20:39
Swamy's picture

Exploring ego

Phroggy wrote:

but I suggest revealing it's ignorance instead.

And who will suggest that? Another ego. And will this ego accept the suggestion of another ego, however refined that may be? I did not see much evidence of such intellectual discussions in the above comments.

If that is done, it will indeed be good.

Sai Ram. Blessings.


Swamy | Sun, 11/09/2008 - 18:55
Phroggy's picture


Well, another person, not so unlike yourself, who's doing the best he can to empty himself of his own needs and fears so that a more 'substantial' force may operate within. This is the revealing of ignorance to which I was referring. Nobody can cause another's ignorance to be revealed without their cooperation.

Is it your perspective that such ignorance can be revealed through intellectual discussion? Ignorance does not seek intellectual wisdom. It is prideful, blind and deaf. Wise discussions of ignorance can only occur among the wise. All discussions involving the ignorant will be ignorant discussions. This is not a problem to be solved.

Phroggy | Mon, 11/10/2008 - 01:07
madan_gautam's picture


.>>>>>This is not a problem to be solved.

One should look in his/her innerself and only then problem can be solved.

madan_gautam | Mon, 11/10/2008 - 08:11
Phroggy's picture


If you see a problem, then yes that's the place to look.

Phroggy | Mon, 11/10/2008 - 09:17
samsara's picture

Can you psychoanalyze yourself without a sharink?

This is an important discussion but what bothers me is how this discussion was conducted up to now. No respect, attachment to ideas. What's the point in discussing spiritual issues in a non-spiritual way?

I think a living guru is necessary, we are too prone to deceive ourselves. The same way you cannot psychoanalyze yourself but need a sharink, you cannot evolve yourself spiritually without a guru/master.

I came to acknowledge that every single person I have encountered who defended vigorously the stand that there is no need for a guru simply had an ego problem or was too introversive. Think about it.

samsara | Sat, 12/26/2009 - 22:26
Giordano Bruno's picture

bles it

It is possible to deepen a spirutal path by reading books of living or ancient masters and develop a relationship to their souls. You will have input and advises from them when studying their work.

When time is right and karma enables it, you will find a personal guru - i prefer the word "teacher", because "guru" is associated with totally giving up your individuality, which is not possible today.

I have experienced by myself, that possibility of aberration on the pathj of spirituality is great when not having a personal chosen teacher. E.g., how often I thougt: "Oh boy, I would have gone completely wrong if I would not have received these words from my teacher (Heinz Grill) now."

Only by reading books we are in danger to build a construct which is comfortable for our ego, but has little to do with the needs of spiritual reality.

Giordano Bruno | Wed, 02/10/2010 - 19:06
joejo's picture

Living Guru is very Necessary

Left to ourselves the ego chooses the path of greatest comfort. It uses all the tricks to carry on with its established habits. It is easier to see the errors in others when we are not emotionally involved. A teacher could provide you with correct inputs and correct misapprehensions. But there is a catch, what if the teacher is himself deluded.

Gurus teach by personal example more. Esoterically speaking they transmit spiritual vibrations but then again this is a field where lot of charlatans thrive.

For me the search itself was rewarding and the acknowledgment of the fact that it is possible to reach Enlightenment and its not a mirage motivates one.

There are those wolfs disguising as Gurus and one must be always mindful of them. Ramakrishna Paramhansa said that before one accepts a Guru there was a need to watch him by day and by night and even test him.

It would do you good to read J krishnmurti on the subject. He abhorred Gurus.

joejo | Sat, 02/13/2010 - 08:43
Gilana's picture


You said, "There are those wolfs disguising as Gurus and one must be always mindful of them. Ramakrishna Paramhansa said that before one accepts a Guru there was a need to watch him by day and by night and even test him."

These wolfs--who falls in love with them?

I am considering starting a thread regarding "deceptive disciples." What was it that you loved--God or an egoic projection? Even if you do fall in love with a wolf, what is the damage?

What have you lost? Love? (no, you gave it from a heart that has enough to give.) Money? ( Trust? (are you ashamed? Is that why you regret acting valiently?) Sadhana? (wasn't it good for you?) your immortal soul? (I don't think so.) Awareness? (did you do things this guy told you to that are shameful? Don't do that again.)

Who is the loser when a Guru turns out to be a wolf? The disciple who got closer to God in his giving, or the charletan who fooled somebody into thinking he knew, when it turns out he didn't?

It is said that Edison failed many times before suceeding once.

Here's a better question: What did you gain? My contention is if you concentrate on that, you will get closer to truth than ever. Maybe God arranged this event to teach you what it isn't. Maybe the understanding you gain will allow your true Guru closer.

We (me too) all have to learn to be more grateful. (I'm going to study what I have written here a lot! Am I up to it?)

P.S. Find a Guru by listening to your heart. It's more reliable than watching and testing.

Gilana | Sun, 02/14/2010 - 08:19
carlito santo's picture

Of course, it is necessary

Of course a living guru is necessary. Guru has to be present in any plane we are involved in and, among others, we are involved heavily in the physical plane. This is the meaning of a "living guru" - representation of our guru in the physical plane.

Why a guru has to be present in any plane we are involved in? you may ask.

The reason is clear: what the guru does for us is only mirroring. He can not do anything else, we wouldn't let him. This mirroring must encompass the whole of our aspects including those in the physical plane.

carlito santo | Sun, 02/14/2010 - 20:18
nitasha's picture


A Guru is a must , no debate on that , and Guru has be approachable , Guru has to be in any of the five elemets, so that we can relate to HIm / Her . and communication is possible . Without Guru , one would not know the NEXT STEP .Guru is the doorway to understanding ones own self and then ultimately reaching the Divine. And True seekers of the higher are few, so also the REAL GURUS.Once a seeker finds his/her Guru , they NEVER deviate , because Guru gives the student EVERYTHING , the student craves for. The student also knows that the Guru holds all the keys to the next level , so student also gives Guru 100% faith .This is not rocket science ... actually it is very simple to grasp.But the problem comes when SALESMen are taken to be Gurus, or the student wants to PAY MONEY for Divine BLESSINGS .The fault is both ways. if the student is a true seeker , then the TRUE GURU WILL FIND HIM/ HER . i HAVE PERSONALLY SEEN THIS phenomenon happen with Yogi Ashwini many times in last five years. True seekers come to gain internally , and false seekers come to collect 'certificates'. and as Dhyan Foundation gives crtificates sparingly , the fasle seeker has to go else where. In the foundation , there are many clairvoints , who can see the intentions of such people clearly . and i have seen true seekers , continue to come to gain 'gyan' from Yogi Ashwini , no matter what . Guru is a must , no doubt at all .

nitasha | Tue, 03/16/2010 - 17:52
msingh55555's picture

"Guru Mahima "

It is true that "Guru govind dou khade kake lago pay balihari guru apne govind dio milay" Means Guru's openion,blessings meet us to god.So we can say that guru is first pujniy & respected.

msingh55555 | Sat, 04/03/2010 - 19:14
Kali_mon's picture

No, nothing is necessary....

But an open heart. A dogs arse can elevate one, or one can kill and rape for the "true guru". Depends on the one.

Kali_mon | Tue, 04/06/2010 - 20:24
mcshantihank's picture

yes, you need

a living guru is a must but the living guru does not need to have a physical body. it is very difficult without a guru in the physical body so i think you should have one with a body. we must understand that the mother nature is the best guru.

mcshantihank | Fri, 04/09/2010 - 11:32
senjoyster's picture

God is Guru!!!!!

Hi All,

I Could see various arguments running for the topic need of living guru.My thoughts are:-

1.) Most of sidhars worshiped Shiva and murugan as guru? they believed the supreme power as guru, do they have been proved alive. U BELIEVE!! U GET!!

2.) Books and new age guru's are only material to realize the truth and path identifiers. You can prefer to select guru's like siddhars who has succeeded death and they are still living for welfare of this world.They afraid to teach us because of this ego between us.If we fought for very simple reasons like this. IF people with ego's gets some supernatural powers, they ill conduct world wars to prove my kind respect is to respect others thoughts as well, They have their own way or style of reaching the ultimate goal.Explain the truth if not leave them in their own way. At last everyone in this world will know what will be real.

I m sorry about the above truth, If it hurts some one or some community.


senjoyster | Sun, 07/04/2010 - 20:47
RAJAvsraj's picture

NO not essential

it depends you see. If you choose a living guru like shri parthasarthyrchariji of sahaj marg srcm it screws up the life altogether. Because guru if he is a psycho, does not know what he is doing then you cannot imagine suffering in the hands of living guru. i have never seen that guru laughing with any one. Always some or other complaints on his disciples and arrogance. Be aware before choosing one.

RAJAvsraj | Thu, 07/08/2010 - 04:49
jasdir singh jaura's picture



jasdir singh jaura | Wed, 08/25/2010 - 14:17
RAJAvsraj's picture

It is dangerous trap, if in wrong hands

It is dangerous trap, if in wrong hands, my experinece is i fall in trap of srcm guru, came to conclusion of misusing of his powers, i mean it blackmagic unfortunately, and there is no one to guide, guru should not be meant for misusing of powers all elders who were there to guide were thown away and performs blackmagic at his will.

RAJAvsraj | Wed, 09/01/2010 - 01:00
4d-don's picture

ONE IS... The UNITY IS ... Guru is a creation ! Usually MALE!

Hi all...

ONE is conscious... ONE is consciousness ... ONE creates ONE (Creator) creates ALL (Creation) ... ONE is, and also creates, Consciousness in ITS Creation (ALL)!!

Many GURUs claims that ONE (what some call "GOD"), which is conscious, and/or consciousness itself, can't create "awareness" or "self-awarenessw" directly, but that "IT" needs a person, a proxy, a representative, usually a MAN(sometimes called a "GODMAN"), or a GURU, to create self-awareness or consciousness in himself or others ... Many Gurus are self-appointed, but many also claim a "lineage" as their authority are "titled" or crowned by other mortals.

The ONE, according to many GURUS and their followers, is then not all-powerful and has limitations ... a theological flaw!

But many GURUs claim to be able to do what, they claim, the ONE CREATOR can't do. So Guru, claiming to be more powerful than ONE, and needed by ONE, truly shows "his" (male) EGO and not his self-awareness or consciousness.

ONE is conscious ... ONE is consciousness ... ONE creates ALL including Consciousness.

ONE (Creator) CREATES ALL (Creation)... Guru does not create ... Guru is part of ALL (CREATION)!!


4d-don | Mon, 09/27/2010 - 05:39
Gilana's picture

The ONE is not flawed. The

The ONE is not flawed. The separatist isn't even flawed...he is just closing his eyes. Since the ONE gave us the gift of freedom, we are free to do that. But if you don't want to do it anymore, but don't know how to stop, a Guru, just as any friend can help, by taking your fingers away from your face. Then you can see the perfection.

"The ONE, according to many GURUS and their followers, is then not all-powerful and has limitations ... a theological flaw!

But many GURUs claim to be able to do what, they claim, the ONE CREATOR can't do. So Guru, claiming to be more powerful than ONE, and needed by ONE, truly shows "his" (male) EGO and not his self-awareness or consciousness."

How do you know that the ONE is not acting through the Guru? Is anything separate from the ONE?

Gilana | Mon, 09/27/2010 - 06:20
4d-don's picture

Theology placing the "need" placed on the Creation, is Flawed.

ONE does not need... ONE is not flawed. ONE IS...

What is flawed is thinking that one needs a "stranger" who has authority from himself or from a "lineage" rather than from a real "friend", family, lover, etc... even one's pet.

If one does not want to open one's eyes and see but goes to a GURU to open his/her eyes, then that person could use a professional therapist, if they can't find a friend, family. There is no proxy for ONE or ONE-ness... certainly the proxy for ONE or ONE-ness is not restricted ot a nation, culture, race, region, area, planet, etc...

ONE is accessible to ALL ... All the time...

ONE IS ... Acting is what the ALL (CREATION) DOES. The wind does not only blow through or on one person... The sun does not only shine through or on one person... ALL have access to ONE, ONE-ness or UNITY...

To claim "Uniqueness" or Specialness, or being a proxy for ONE is EGO ... It is an illusion ... not REALITY ... ONE's manifestation is ALL (CREATION)... not a special or "unique" MAN ...

That is not the way of ALL (the CREATION of ONE) and it is not the way of ONE (or ITS Manifestation ... ALL)..


4d-don | Mon, 09/27/2010 - 07:35
Gilana's picture

Ego vs the Guru

EGO is also telling people who can't access ONE without help of a Guru that they aren't as cool as you are.

I know, because in my ignorance, in my love and wish to help others I have done that. I thought that people just needed me to tell them it was available, that it was there for the taking and they would join me in a miraculous world of existence!

But I was wrong--everybody already knows. The things that keep US from experiencing the ONE aren't: that we don't know it exists, we don't have the courage to try, or that we are undeveloped in some way--or especially that there was a lack of true teachers to tell us about reality.

The thing that keeps us from experiencing ourselves as the ONE all of the time are the things we have learned from others, and the ways we have to protect ourselves from the true teachers. If people would just leave us alone, we could just finally relax and be natural. But that is not the world, so....

The true Guru helps you to relax, to go within, to rely on yourself (even in the face of what everybody else has told you about your self) and discover what is true and what needs to be burned because it's dead, wrong, or just trash. As soon as you can do this on your own, the Guru function is obsolete. So, naturally, it disappears.

In this quote, you can replace the word "love" with the word "Guru" and find out what a Guru really is. Because a true Guru is Love in action in this world.

"Love is a flame that burns everything other than itself. It is the destruction of all that is false and the fulfillment of all that is true....

True Love is far greater than anything that could be called personal. True Love is a non-personal miracle. It is the nature of reality itself. It is the natural and spontaneous expression of the undivided self......

Intuition of this degree of Love magnetically draws the individual toward it, and at the same time, causes fear to arise. This Love is seeking the dissolution of all separateness, all me-ness, all self concern.....

Love cares not for the me, it cares only for that which is true, undivided and whole.When the me dissolves, when it surrenders itself to a unity far greater than anything the mind can comprehend, that is Love.....

Non-personal Love is not a feeling, yet within it there can be, and there is, feeling and emotion. But the feeling and emotion are not derived from a personal me. The feeling and emotion are derived from the absence of a personal me.....

'There is profound responsibility in being Love,' ...more than the mind could imagine or hold up under. If most human beings truly realized the impact that they have on the whole, they'd be crushed by the realization of it."

— Adyashanti
"The Impact of Awakening"

Gilana | Mon, 09/27/2010 - 15:50
Gilana's picture

I have reviewed the

I have reviewed the discussions on Gurus and whether they are needed or not. Whether they are good or bad, trustworthy or dangerous.

I have found so much pain. Who are these charletans and wolfs who have preyed on sincere seekers? What horrible Karma have they earned? I'm so very sorry for those who have been harmed at their hand. It must be so difficult to trust, then to come to the realization that you have misplaced it, that this is not your beloved, but a monster who has fooled you.

My Guru is true and he says, "Every action you ever take is an attempt to get to Truth, an attempt to get to God. You may have done something bad, something even evil, but it is still an attempt--even if it's twisted--to get to God. Human beings just aren't capable of anything else." Even if we can't figure out how that could possibly be from these false gurus. Nasty devils...leave them to themselves.

To those who have been hurt: May great blessings fall upon you, surround you, and hold you every moment of your life. May you feel grace in every moment and may grace bring you truth instead of lies...the kind of truth that will nurture and heal you.

Gilana | Mon, 09/27/2010 - 16:18
4d-don's picture

Go to the BOSS ... Not the self-titled proxy or the "hired hand"

Hi All... (Gilana)

Thanks for your comments.

If one is not happy with the (UNIVERSAL) service, and seeking an improvement, one should go directly to the BOSS ... To think that there is a path through another person, speaks to one's lack of confidence ... That should be corrected by anyone who claim to be a "friend", (or a true Guru) and the seeker should be placed on the path to ONE or ONE-ness ... immediately. They should not be held back or delayed, and be milked of their energy, money, etc... or kept in a narcissistic or self-serving state of navel-gazing "bliss", for the sake of the MISSION, or the Master ... and/or certainly not to make "ONE" (God) happy or "content"!

ONE is EVERYTHING, EVERYWHERE and EVERYWHEN (the E-Trinity) ... if one places another (an entity made of "carbon") between ONE and one's self then one is seeking "illusions" ... not REALITY and will be taken advantage of by many at every street corner of LIFE.

We (some) base our relationships that way. We keep those "loved" or who can be of service to us close at hand, and we keep those who are "needy" or a "problem" at a distance for the sake of our "happiness", some think ... Some on the other hand, can love without asking for anything in return, but they are not necessarily "GURUS" who teach, are followed and adored by their "fans", who buid material (concrete) structures and worldly institutions for their "retreats" and study (MIND) and disregard those who are "NEEDY" .... claiming that "the poor and the needy will always be with us" ...

That last statement is true, but any fool can act and speak that way ... that does not give anyone any "authority" to speak for ONE or to claim to be the "representative" of ONE... The sun does not chose who to shine on, nor the wind who to blow on. Nature (ALL) is more genrerous than that.

There should be a "GURU" University, so the seeker can at least know that their GURU has done some studying and has some "practical" training and experience in advising others in any field. Most GURUs want obedience in "all" human endeavours, not simply "spirituality" ... without any training whatsoever ... To claim to be a GURU, one should have a "degree" of some sort, as the religious "priests" and Ministers claim to have ... some religious charlatans simply purchase their "doctorates" on-line but some are more credible ... Many, like many GURUS, claim to be inspired and appointed by ONE (God... HIMSELF??).

LIFE, and specially the religious/spiritual marketplace where some sell their spiritual products and states from or for "beyond the grave" or from or for "another world", is still and will reamain a "buyer beware" marketplace ... sort of like LIFE!! BUYER BEWARE!! Money will leave your pockets and will end up in "theirs", as if by MAGIC... ;-))

Since (according to PT Barnum) "There's a new sucker born every minute", there is also a predator born to take advantage of the fool-hardy, the naive and the gullible ... The snake-oil salesmen who will sell a cure for anything that ails you ...

Keep one eye open all the time ... and think with your "ONE-given" instrument ... the BRAIN ... not with the lowly PUMP, which is the heart.

Most charlatans want their "targets" (victims) to not use their heads, but they will tell the "adherents" (adhesive, glue, stuck) to think with their hearts. It is not why ONE, who CREATED ALL, made the heart, the pump for blood.

Don't use you hand to digest food, don't use your foot to hear or speak, and don't use your heart to think!! USE THE BRAIN to analyze and to decide, as ONE meant it to be. Specially in the intangible and un-proven field of "spirituality/spiritualism"...


4d-don | Mon, 09/27/2010 - 17:38
4d-don's picture

Dissecting a small part of Gilana's "Ego vs the Guru"

Hi Gilana...

You say: "

I know, because in my ignorance, in my love and wish to help others I have done that. I thought that people just needed me to tell them it was available, that it was there for the taking and they would join me in a miraculous world of existence!

But I was wrong--everybody already knows. The things that keep US from experiencing the ONE aren't: that we don't know it exists, we don't have the courage to try, or that we are undeveloped in some way--or especially that there was a lack of true teachers to tell us about reality.

Since "you know", and "because in my ignorance" you thought that telling others about ONE was not desireable or effective, now, along with everyone else, you also know... "everybody already knows", you say, that one (anyone) can't tell others anything as they already KNOW ... the information is out there for all to KNOW.

Still, when the world leaves you alone, you seek to find someone to depend or rely on, so as to be able to relax, as he/she gives you his "shpeel" and then you will be "Natural" ... and then you will really KNOW and you will tell others that they need a GURU ... just like you?

But everyone already KNOWS all that. They have heard it all and some have accepted it and some reject it, deciding instead to go directly to the BOSS ... so why not just relax and BE NATURAL and at ONE, since you already know all that, and that telling anyone anything is not desireable, needed or wanted. Or are you looking for "magic", a force that only the special GURU will have and which he will transmit to you as if it was from ONE (god)?? That which ONE, (god) can't do by ITSELF or to which you can't even attempt (the journey) by yourself?? YOU seem to NEED someone to "tell you what to do"?? Since you already know the information!! Some don't need that !! Some get married so as to have someone to "tell them what to do"... But some rely on their own ability to analyze and then to decide ... using the brain!

The thing that keeps us from experiencing ourselves as the ONE all of the time are the things we have learned from others, and the ways we have to protect ourselves from the true teachers. If people would just leave us alone, we could just finally relax and be natural. But that is not the world, so....

The true Guru helps you to relax, to go within, to rely on yourself (even in the face of what everybody else has told you about your self) and discover what is true and what needs to be burned because it's dead, wrong, or just trash. As soon as you can do this on your own, the Guru function is obsolete. So, naturally, it disappears."

I agree with you that we should forget what others tell us or what we read, but only after we have read it and after we have heard it.

We all learn from one another if we are truly a "civilization" and we do learn from many "others" ... our information and hence the knowledge that is retained from the "in-formation" is cumulative and in our secular society, it has many self-correcting mechanisms ... one being the FREEDOM to believe what we want and to reject what we want.

There are no true "dogmas" in life... there are only the rigidized or fundamental beliefs of "pseudo-authorities" who use "religion" or other "faith-based" systems to hold their "fellow-persons" around them for their own purposes and delusions of self-importance ... Gurus are no different if they accumulate people, scriptures, lists of instructions, maxims, commandements, and then there is the iconography, and of course, the Ashrams,temples, the institutions, etc... etc... etc... material ad infinitum...

Matter, having mass, keeps the guru from continuing the "journey" and it lures, as a magnet, and emprisons the seeker from continuing his/her journey also...

MOTION is a REALITY ... Stillness is an ILLUSION ...

One can relax and go with the flow... or like the fish, swim up-stream and be "excited"... But MOTION will take place ...

Bless you and yours...


4d-don | Mon, 09/27/2010 - 23:04
Gilana's picture


How do you know my guru tells me what to do?

Gilana | Tue, 09/28/2010 - 02:09
4d-don's picture

We already know all that!

Hi Gilana...

Don't they all?? If he/she (your Guru) is only putting out information, then, as you say, we already know all that!!

This is the Age of Information, all the information accumulated for millenia and more is "out there" ...

In-Formation will set us Free!

With the 12th century revolution of the Barons which culminated with the "Magna Carta", Justice became "blind".

With the current revolution of the Peasantry (the last "estate"), in the Age of Information, Knowledge is also "blind". We don't need "authorities" to hold "in-formation" anymore.

We can mine or sift through the in-formation ourselves, and FORM our own KNOWLEDGE!! These are the days of the "bio-diversification" of Knowledge.


4d-don | Tue, 09/28/2010 - 04:06
Gilana's picture

Knowing is not Knowledge. They are different.

I don't know where you get your information, but no - Gurus don't put out information. They don't tell you what to do. And they have nothing to do with the Magna Carta.

Spirituality has nothing to do with information of any kind.

Are you sincere, or is this a joke?

Gilana | Tue, 09/28/2010 - 05:01
4d-don's picture

Knowledge is BLIND... One can get it from many sources...

Hi Gilana ...

Gurus sure write a lot of books, putting out a lot of "in-formation" ... that is the main source of their income and livelyhood ...

I don't get my information from one Guru but from ALL the sources of information that are available to me ... Example: Calling the DIVINE as a number: "ONE" (not "the" ONE, since there is only one ONE-ness), comes from Plato (5th century BCE), Plotinus (2nd century BCE), and Swami Vivekananda (19th Century ACE).

If Spirituality has reality, then it is not matter, energy, mind (ideas, information, knowledge), but is a more rarified form of "REALITY" than all of those ...

Spirituality is not Spritualism with mythical "spirits" and special and evolved entities which have magical or evolved powers and have a more direct contact with ONE, the ONE-ness, than we, the PEOPLE ...

If Spirituality is a REAL dimension of REALITY, then it has to be a REALITY that UNITES mind, matter, energy ... just like MIND, through the logic of science, has to make a UNION of Matter and energy as it did with E=mc^2 (Enstein general theory of relativity...) but which we knew "intuitively" from time immemorial ... And it has to unite the "nothing" or the Zero of Bhuddism, which it is beginning to do with the yet incomplete "Quantuum theory". Then it will have to unite the "minus" or TIME and "virual" or the "implicate" (as opposed to "explicate") REALITY.

Spirituality UNITES and/or encompasses ALL and should not create any DIVISIONS or seperations ... A spiritual person should tolerate and respect all religions and cultures, nations, races, etc... and unite all ideas of MIND into ONE whole.

At one time, we needed the "information" or what we called "knowledge" to be carried by some "saints" (usually "misfits" who were not trapped by Matter/energy/mind) of the previous generation. Now, with the advent of technology, that information is available to all in greater diversity than even was possible a short century ago ...and without all the "emotions"... There is now more information available to the current generation that to the previous one. Information is not knowledge but it becomes knowledge. And that knowledge should include "knowing" or esperience.

Spirituality is not matter nor energy, but it should UNITE them into a higher dimensional REALITY...the same is done with MIND which carries "information" and even knowledge and unites and makes sense of matter and energy... Mind also unites and can control or guide our human feelings, emotions, etc...

Spirituality is not "information" but it should encompass information, making sense of it (using logic or LOGOS or myth or MYTHOS) ... Myth, logic and matter, or energy are not the whole REALITY but if it is UNITED by the ONE-ness of SPIRIT, then it can become a UNITY ... a UNIFIED REALITY or ONE!!

One does not "know" any more about the truth or about REALITY through experience, which can easily be falsified by many, including by our own mind, than by the gathering of information and forming one's knowledge using "LOGIC" ... The Logos of the ancient Greeks. (Knowledge would then be the cumulation of verified (and repeatable) experiences, in-formation, and what we bring into the world as "conscience" and/or consciousness...)

The Magna Carta took the "divine rights of kings" of that age (the AGE of the GOD-king), and united a whole section of society, the BARONS in sharing the POWER. Then came the revolutions which included the "bourgeoisie" (French revolution, American revolution, and many more accross Europe), then the "worker's revolutions" (the Russian revolution, and the formations of UNIONS etc..) next came the peasants (the last estate) and for that, we had to wait until the Electrical revolution, the electronics revolution, and the "information revolution" ...

Now we the PEOPLE (the common Joe) are part of the UNITY ... the ONE... We share in the POWER. Our ideas have value and we can express them to ALL on the planet without FEAR of being "killed" ... So the Magna Carta was a first step on the path of the UNIFICATION of the various societies (estates) in our civilization ... which is now reaching "Global" status. We are nearing "civilization ONE" as physicist, Michio Kaku, calls it. It is all SPIRITUALITY ... IT is all ONE ...

Bless you and yours...


4d-don | Tue, 09/28/2010 - 06:06
Gilana's picture

Minds gone wild!

This conversation illustrates my point.

Mind tries to understand and categorize that which cannot be understood or categorized. Existence can never be understood by mind until mind can take into account EVERYTHING. All at the same time. Which, by the way, is what I see you trying to do. It will drive you crazy.

Because it can't because by it's very function it is limited. Words pick some letter and exclude others. Concepts pick some understandings and exclude others. Only the 360 degrees nature of awareness and the knowing that comes from it can come close to understanding.

Existence is unlimited, alive, breathing and--like every woman you will ever know--unpredictable. Science (which I love) can't understand, predict or categorize a woman, let alone God. And, science is mind.

Gilana | Tue, 09/28/2010 - 06:42
Gilana's picture

P.S. - My guru never tells me what to do.

Ever. Except if I ask. Then he suggests. But his famous quote to me was, "You notice I never tell you what to do."

And - he still conducts the guru function. So how does he do that, you ask?

Gilana | Tue, 09/28/2010 - 06:45
Gilana's picture

A True Guru

A true guru has no interest in talking. S/he has no interest in sharing information. The only reason they talk or write is to keep you interested in their vibe long enough for it to affect you. That's why they communicate - to effect you, not to teach you.

My guru says, "A teacher informs; a Guru transforms."

Gilana | Tue, 09/28/2010 - 06:52
4d-don's picture

I say SPIRIT...You say MIND...


If you related to and spoke about SPIRIT, you might reach ONE-ness, at least in words (mind) ... You speak only about MIND and the best you can reach in "divisiveness" is to say: "will drive you crazy" ... NO, thinking will not drive one crazy if one moves from MIND to SPIRIT ... but repeating the same religious reliance on "godmen" and religions will keep us divided and insulting those who don't endorse our prefered "god-man" or even some people's need for a GURU ... even to war ... I don't have that "need" to bollow anyone but ONE or ALL ...

If you found something else but MIND, to unite anything, rather than divide, you would experience "ONE" and "ONE-nessw" ... not with the ideas of mind or the sights received by the "material" eyes, and/or the sounds received by the material ears, but with a uniting SPIRIT, A REALITY of ONE or ONE-ness ...

Your GURU speaks...and if he does not make sense or "inform" you, then you would not "listen" ... unless he does the old trick of: ..."you won't understand my words but my "vibration" will transform you" ... Well good luck waiting for the transformation ... It's like selling you oxygen. It's there for free... We will all transform as this is the age of transformation ... you will not transform any faster or more than the rest of us ... and the transformation will take place as much by the effects of the sun as by the effects of your GURU or his teachings ...

Transformation is upon us... be ready to change or "mutate" ... and by change, I mean change your MIND also.

And to repeat ... We have heard all that stuff before... "a teacher informs and a GURU "transforms"... Words, Words, Words,.... But since they are the words you want to hear...then go there and react to that rather than trying to get others to "find a Guru" or to follow your Guru ...

You will just be into another unique and special "religion" or a divided sect of Society and will not have UNITED anything ...

Spirituality UNITES ... Religion and Spiritualism divides.

We can spew sayings, witticisms, and aphorisms till the cows come home ... words are cheap and if we simply remain in MIND, there will be no UNITY between us as your mind is controlled by what you heard from someone else, your GURU ... SPIRIT should UNITE ... But not your Spirit or your Guru's unless ALL endorse and follow your GURU! That is religion and dogmatism ... not Sprituality... What comes from me, is MINE, not what some other misfit made up in his self-induced and self-serving and maybe even self-deluded "bliss" ... I have experienced all those "illusions" and have left them behind ... and will now follow my own "SPIRITUAL" path ... I will not follow another "carbon" entity, or another's MIND, ... Spirit only needs ONE...I will go there.

Go in Peace...


4d-don | Tue, 09/28/2010 - 08:15
Gilana's picture


"NO, thinking will not drive one crazy if one moves from MIND to SPIRIT"
Yes, I've found this to be so. The mind is the servant to the spirit.

"If you found something else but MIND, to unite anything, rather than divide, you would experience "ONE" and "ONE-nessw" ... not with the ideas of mind or the sights received by the "material" eyes, and/or the sounds received by the material ears, but with a uniting SPIRIT, A REALITY of ONE or ONE-ness ..."

Certainly - but I think you are right - reality is beyond the mind. The mind can't get you to reality, but it can prepare the way. The mind is the servant to the spirit.

"And to repeat ... We have heard all that stuff before... "a teacher informs and a GURU "transforms"... Words, Words, Words,.... But since they are the words you want to hear...then go there and react to that rather than trying to get others to "find a Guru" or to follow your Guru ..."

Please show me where I have tried to get you or anyone else to find a Guru or follow my Guru. Point in case: do you know who my Guru is? It's silly because I know you can't find a Guru or follow a Guru.

"Your GURU speaks...and if he does not make sense or "inform" you, then you would not "listen" ... unless he does the old trick of: ..."you won't understand my words but my "vibration" will transform you" ... Well good luck waiting for the transformation"

Please prove this is a trick.
If you can't please retract it.

"We will all transform as this is the age of transformation ... you will not transform any faster or more than the rest of us ... and the transformation will take place as much by the effects of the sun as by the effects of your GURU or his teachings ..."
This is your opinion. I have not given you my opinion of how fast or slow you will transform. Gently, since I don't want your opinion on this subject, please do not give me your opinion of how fast or slow you think I will transform.

"We can spew sayings, witticisms, and aphorisms till the cows come home ... words are cheap and if we simply remain in MIND, there will be no UNITY between us as your mind is controlled by what you heard from someone else, your GURU ... SPIRIT should UNITE ... But not your Spirit or your Guru's unless ALL endorse and follow your GURU! That is religion and dogmatism ... not Sprituality..."

You are insinuating that my Guru is coming from Ego. That is insulting and untrue, and I'm asking you to stop it. Your assumptions are becoming insulting and repulsing rather than uniting.

Regarding "MIND" i have said to you that the mind cannot bring us to God, that it is the servant, not the Master.

The "idea" that anyone needs to endorse my Guru is laughable. He would stop that himself, in an unpleasant way. Any endorsement you have seen from me is simply my heart talking. Don't listen to it if you don't want to. It is also ridiculous to think that he would allow anyone to follow him--not that we could or would.

It is very obvious that you have had some experience that has insulted your being, your self. Of course you cannot allow that and must rebel. Your path is to be respected and I wish you the highest in it. I would however point out that this site is called "Gurusfeet," and ask you to show some modicum of respect for those who have been called to that path. I would enjoy truly conversing with you, you seem to be an intelligent person and may have found something real, but you are too insulting to do that yet.

But I can't finish this discussion without the suggestion that they may be something different out there that you have not yet experienced. I say I have found someone who has left his ego behind and is only staying here to help others find the same thing. Because the result of that it seeing clearly what is already there. As a caution, again, I am not asking your opinion on this, but a discussion would be welcome.

It would help if you and I could use our minds first and discuss facts first, rather than talking from our own orientations. Please let me know if you are willing.


Gilana | Tue, 09/28/2010 - 15:58
4d-don's picture

Using MIND to Discuss my GURU ... ONE or ALL ...

Hi Gilana ...

I want to speak of my GURU... there is not much one can say about IT, so I will have to speak of my relationship or my thoughts about IT.

First of all... I follow ONE or ALL. I don't call it GURU as the word GURU means "teacher" and is usually meant for a "carbon entity" (man?)... and ONE does not have any attributes ... and IT is certainly not only "carbon", or it can't be said to be solely matter, energy, or mind.

IT may be ALL (the temporally CREATED: mind, matter, energy)and as well, some aspects of what we call SPIRIT, a more rarified form of REALITY (energy?). But since I am following or heading towards a SPIRIT, then I can be considered as following "SOMETHING" or going toward "SOMETHING" ... some would call IT GURU, and the ultimate GURU would be ONE or ALL, and some others would call it DIVINE, GOD, ALLAH, GREAT SPIRIT, etc... etc...

So I feel that this site should be able to encompass my views and expressions, as one who does not only make up things to serve his lower self (mind, ego, emotions, materiality, energy,) but to also serve the SPIRIT in the self as well as the SPIRIT in ALL as SPIRIT, in my definition of it, would be equivalent to ONE or ONE-ness ... That is why I call ONE a SPIRIT ... not knowing completely what this "SPIRIT" is in reality, as I am relating to IT from my "mind, matter, energy, and attempting to develop what I understand as some attributes of SPIRIT or of my "spirit-uality".

One thing that I think (mind) is, if SPIRIT is ONE, then it must permeate ALL or BE like the Russian "Babushka dolls", and/or BE what this REALITY is fundamentally made of. That is of course, until we perceive something else as we attain (not achieve) "spirituality" or "spirit-hood" ... the STATE of BEING ... The unknown energy between the quanta of physical energy ...

As such, IT (ONE) should UNITE ALL of the Temporal Creation, what some call the "illusion".

I don't give IT any "personal" or human (animal) attributes such as "intention" or any emotions such as "anger"...but I somehow think that LOVE, being a repulsive and an attractive force, could be a spiritual attribute for us to attain ... but I am not sure that ONE "loves"... ONE may BE love as IT is ALL.

Also, ONE in ITS BEING "love", should UNITE at one level, and ONE should also Seperate or repulse. Examples: the repulsive (dark energy?) inflation of Space that forms our "home", the UNIVERSAl "soap bubble", and the attractive gravity that forms stars, galaxies, Groups of Galaxies, Clusters of Galaxies, the Great Attractor, etc ...

In our humanity in our "gravity bound" home, the solar system, galaxy,etc... SPIRIT should UNITE us in our diversity. Our diversity or the diversity of Nature is a mechanism for our learning, our growth and for our evolution, our survival and/or for life's temporal or cyclical continuation.

We should revel in our diversity as we do with Nature's diversity. No matter which GURU or "ism" we relate to.

Bless you and yours...


4d-don | Tue, 09/28/2010 - 18:35
Gilana's picture


I'm glad to receive your impressions of your Guru.

My Guru is a human (carbon as you put it). His job is to clear away anything that obscures my experience of your Guru.

I diverge from your path only in a few small ways -
Guru doesn't mean teacher. Teacher means teacher. Guru means on who provides the circumstances, whatever that might mean, to make a fertile environment for his disciples to transform.

Of course what I call God does this too and all of the time, but I like my Guru because he can talk to me, and smile and frown and encourage and discourage me. He's personal.

I haven't said so far in this discussion, but I have had very real experiences of God. And beyond experience. But that's a different discussion.

May I ask you - how do you perceive your Guru in your daily life?

Thanks for all the information you gave.


Gilana | Tue, 09/28/2010 - 19:25
4d-don's picture

Hi Gilana... I live in the

Hi Gilana...

I live in the country (acreage),near the forest and a mountain on the Pacific Coast, where I walk daily with my dog, and nightly in the mountains (above the tree line), so as to observe the stars and the cosmos ... I interact with people (except for the odd encounter with people in cars, and waving "hello"), only once a week when I go to town to shop. So I am a semi-retired recluse ... I love it.

My exterior perception of ONE, ONE-ness or All is through my receptors. And a group of these "recepts" sometime give me a unified perception of ONE or ONE-ness in the complexity and diversity of Nature. Many percepts or perceptions sometimes are united (by mind) and give me a "concept" or an idea in the MIND but mostly it is a "feeling" rather than a concept that can be formulated and shared ... The words are not invented yet or may never be. Many times, it is the same as the "awe" and "reverence" at Nature's beauty, size (large and small) and diversity, that we all feel at contemplation in Nature ...

But, in Nature, the diversity is so numerous, and the ONE-ness is so strong that one daily finds one's self uttering a prayer of either praise, gratitude, or forgiveness or of be-wailing the fate of "humankind". Sometimes, there is a desire to give Mankind a shake so as to wake the collective consciousness from the dream of violence and sadness it creates by its own folly in its competition for materialistic gratification (money, power, etc...).

That is on the "outside" world... In the "stillness", which is a relative term as there is no real "stillness" in REALITY, but ALL is in MOTION, including inside this entity. But in the relative stillness of the relatively quieted MIND, I meditate on SPIRIT ... not on the material ... not on energy (light), not on a form, not on a sound,... and I don't centralize SPIRIT in the heart, the third eye, or anywhere but I enclose my whole "self", including my aura (approx. 3 ft.) inside SPIRIT and become aware of my self and my aura inside this cosmic egg of SPIRIT, a rarefied form of "energy??" ... and I AM alert and ready to receive. The third eye can be called the receptor in this exercise.

And the process is the same as on the outside world of Nature except that the physical receptors are not involved in the perceptions, ideas and/or "feelings" (not sensations) that are felt, or more accurately, experienced ...

What is your experience and methodology?


4d-don | Tue, 09/28/2010 - 21:53
Gilana's picture

I used to live on the

I used to live on the Pacific Coast, in the Redwoods, and I used to walk with my dog (Irish Setter) alone and speak to people rarely. So we share at least one of the same ways to be silent.

When I was sixteen I had a experience that showed me something of reality. That understanding, knowing if you will, changed me and defined my life, and has ever since.

I looked for thirty-five years for someone who shared the understanding in vain. Finally met my guru. He talks about it all the time. I never hear a "gong," like I did with everybody else.

You said I AM, which is the basis of my life. Getting more clear about that, paying attention to that defines my "methodology." My goal was learning to integrate what I knew with what I saw, heard, and experienced daily. I'm less worried about that now.

You said you find yourself uttering "a prayer of either praise, gratitude, or forgiveness." We share that, too. It's natural. I don't worry about the fate of "humankind," but I am still a terrible chicken about facing more pain in my own life, although I forge ahead, because if I AM, whatever is, is.

We also share the understanding that reality isn't only in us, we are small parts within reality.

As far as motion is concerned, the viewing of molecular motion was a part of my first seeing. The beautiful interconnected motion of consciousness, moving together like a giant machine of light. Of course words don't do it justice. One other thing I saw was that people and animals are beings of light with masks on--masks that define their role and personality. I can still "see" it and always feel it.

I am glad to share this with you and to hear your wisdom. Awe and reverence, gratitude and praise let me know that we are on the same wavelength.

Gilana | Wed, 09/29/2010 - 05:01
4d-don's picture

Andromeda, the Galaxy...

Hi Gilana...

Nice to hear your experience and the similarities with our lives ... From 7 years old, I was involved with the Catholic Church ... I left in my early twenties and experimented with many other "systems". I am Acadian (Cajun or of French lineage) and they (the institute of "They") say that there are as many political parties in France as there are people. We are opiniated. I am now a religion or a "SPIRIT-uality" of ONE!! No leaders...just one follower of ONE!!

I agree that as well as having temporal carbon shells, we, homo sapiens, are beings of full spectrum light and more (mind, spirit, ?? ) ... I love twilight and dawn, as even the auras (light) of trees become visible if one "de-focuses" one's eyes. One can see (with a little effort) the energy jumping from the ends of the branches, as the atmosphere becomes charged because of the humidity. I think (not sure) that most of the life in biosphere process sunlight in one way or another, and so are all "beings of light" to a greater or lesser degree. Down to the level of bacteria and/or archea which can process energy from inside the planet (heat or the red end of the EM spectrum.)

Most of the time, I am not concerned with the fate of "humankind", but at some times, when I watch a lot of "NEWS", I react to the waste of energy and time and what could be done with it, if we could be a little wiser ... We are getting there, wherever "there" is.

My dog is a female Great Pyrenea (guardian or shepherd dog) ... I often go out in the mountains at night and she keeps the bears and raccoons away (trees them), and she will not go out if there is a cougar around ... She goes to the door, smells outside and comes back in. Once we climbed the mountain at night and on our way back, she would not continue on the trail... No matter what I did, she would not come...I threw some rocks and sticks in the bushes (downwind), and heard some ruffling in the bushes and then she came ... the cougar was near and could have been stalking us, I figure he (a young male ...I saw him last year) was downwind and close to the trail!!

I just came in from looking at Andromeda, the Galaxy, which is a member of the Local Group with our Milky Way and a few dozen smaller galaxies. We (the Milky Way) are actually eating one of the smaller galaxies in our group. The Milky Way galaxy is approx. 100,000 light years accross (diameter), Andromeda is approx. 260,000 light years accross, and we are heading towards one another at 100 km/sec and will collide or merge in 4.5 billion years to form a Huge elliptical Galaxy with a Massive black hole at the centre. We are already large by galactic standards, the average galaxy being 10,000 light years accross...

When I lived in the cities, I could only read about this (too much light pollution) ... now I can see it with field glasses and go on-line and see the greatest live sites from the around the globe with up-to-date information on anything I see. Now, I live in my "cave" (mobile home ... the modern day "cave" and I feel like a millionaire when I look outside. Then I turn and see the reality, that I am just "trailer trash"... ;-))

Time to read and go to bed...

Bless you and yours...


4d-don | Wed, 09/29/2010 - 07:28
4d-don's picture

(Correction) Spirit ... not "a spirit"

Hi all...

I noticed that in one of my posts above, there was typo where I said: "a SPIRIT"

That is suppose to say: SPIRIT or a "field of SPIRIT"

There is no article before "God", or ONE of anything. Spirit is ONE ... in REALITY just like temporal REALIITY of MIND, ENERGY, MATTER. It simply is less "temporal" (an attribute of TIME) and could even be "ETERNAL" (no beginning, no end) ... an possible attribute of SPACE.

To speak of spirit as if it was an "entity" is not SPIRITUALITY but spiritualism with mediums, messages from the dead "spirits" etc ...


4d-don | Wed, 09/29/2010 - 15:58
4d-don's picture

My Guru by Dattareya

Hi all..

This was taken from Guruphiliac at:

Dattatreya, the ascetic saint of ancient India has said:

"The Self alone is my Guru. Yet, I have learnt wisdom from twenty-four other individuals and objects. So they, too,
are also my Gurus."

Do not a Slave or a Master be!

4d-don | Wed, 09/29/2010 - 16:53
Gilana's picture

Who said Slave?

Did somebody say slave?

Gilana | Tue, 10/12/2010 - 06:57
4d-don's picture

Slave or Serf ...


The Founding Guru of Sahaj Marg, Ram Chandra of Shahjahanpur, (aka Babuji), in one of his books called the disciples his: "serfs" ...

That word reflects that mentality: from the medieval era, circa 1000-? and feudalism ... when the serfs (peasants) were indentured to the "lord" of the manor, the Master! The peasants were "property" much like "slaves".

Some "gurus" think that way!! They want "obedience" in everything ... and all the power (political, religious, financial, etc..) in their "organization" ... We won't get into the "material" and the "sensual", but some Gurus also claim those "realms"... Some even claim "knowledge" in everything. Again see the Sahaj Marg (tm) so-called: Gurus!

The feeling of "warmth and love", can be a re-processing of the energy of the crowd ... That's why a theatre is called a "hot medium" as opposed to TV which is more "cold"...It is after all a "sensuality" we are dealing with ... not SPIRIT. It (sensuality) can come from the MIND,and the material, not necessarily from "GOD" ... a male God is what most male gurus claim as their "Ultimate" ... that is also not accurate theologically ... If ONE IS SPIRIT, IT does not have a GENDER or is ALL GENDERS!


4d-don | Tue, 10/12/2010 - 08:07
Gilana's picture

this box is getting really narrow...

Remember...even you said "some" gurus. This may be one of my last posts on this subject, because I'm getting tired of the issue, but just to reiterate, there are good and bad in any job function. If you disparage the entire group by the deeds of the worst, then you are throwing out the baby with the bath water.

My guru is a true guru, but still he accuses me of all kinds of stuff. Right and wrong. He gets more and more aggressive (not physically silly). The wrong stuff passes me by and the right stuff burns. I get purer and purer. My demeanor gets softer. Pretty soon, nothing will burn any more.

And that's how we will be able to tell that I'm "done."

(Just from the knowledge I have gained of my own beloved guru's methods...I would wager that somebody in the disciple ranks didn't want to be seen as anybody's slave...somebody's ego was feeling pretty feisty....if I'm right it was most probably the disciple that was helping him write the book...)

Gilana | Tue, 10/12/2010 - 17:27
Nitashaartist's picture


i want to share a understanding about Yogi Ashwini with all. I am 47 years old, and have understood some basics , which i want to share. one of the things i have noticed is that, we are happy , when Guru gives us a warm,loving feeling, or fulfills a desire we feel very connected and happy . BUT AS SOON AS GURU PINPOINTS OUR FAULTS,we stop going in front of Him /Her.The test is to stay your ground when the deepest corrections are in process, as it is like running away from the operation table while the operation is in progress!

Nitashaartist | Tue, 10/12/2010 - 06:54
Gilana's picture

Boy, am I with you!

It's so hard!!! But you have to keep going...

The warmth is like God loving us, recognizing us, validating us! But the Faults! In so many ways they are hurtful to hear...just to recognize that something that we think is so ugly could be a part of you! Then, that someone else sees it when you have repressed. And then to have it pointed out in Satsang!

But what else could shake me from my stupor? I haven't paid it any attention for years...what makes now different?

Gilana | Tue, 10/12/2010 - 07:07
4d-don's picture

Nitashartist... Let us hope


Let us hope that the "deepest corrections" are not on-going, and the Guru keeps stimulating "love" to keep the disciple close, and then go about identifying another of "the deepest needed correction" again, over and over ... for LIFE...

Let us hope that as we see a doctor for "corrective surgery", at some point the correction is executed and the implementation of the healthy phase of the new life of the person should be stimulated and encouraged also. Let us hope that what is trans-formed is a person who is able to create the "love" and a "warm loving feeling" by one's self and one can then become a generator of "warmth" for others or even in isolation from people, a generator for LIFE ITself (not himself nor "her-self")...

A guide who controls one's life (all of one's life) is not a guide but a "master" of one's life. One can learn from one other, and also from many "others". And one does not take one guide for "all journeys"!

By cloning, (spiritual cloning?) one can create an exact copy. But "bio-diversity" is a more powerful survival mechanism for species and for the environment we call natural. Bio-diversity allows for the "Original" or the "NEW".


4d-don | Tue, 10/12/2010 - 07:41
Gilana's picture

yes indeedy

When the disciple is ready the Master disappears.

(My master would like to disappear now. He's waiting patiently, well, not as patiently as he was before...)

Additionally, my focus would be to discover the love that is already there rather than to generate something that is artificial and temporary.

In a phrase, the whole process is to take the blinders off. Easier said than done.

Gilana | Wed, 10/13/2010 - 00:53
4d-don's picture

Potential or Actual ... Explicate and Implicate!

Hi ...

If all the love was actually created already, or "actuated", there would be no MOTION, no attraction, no repusion, no CREATION ... and I (not "me") feel that MOTION is a reality that we measure as TIME (the measurement of "change" and hence "illusion or temporal").

Our "I" or our part of Spirit, our ONE-ness, being ONE, is co-creator, and has a function (if not a purpose). LOVE is one creation that SPIRIT can and does actuate or IS, by altering the vibration of MIND (including brain in "homo sapiens").

Spirit can thus affect energy/matter, creating warmth in the actuating process from its POTENTIAL state.

Heat is in the red end of the EM spectrum...LIGHT. The other auric colours such as the cooler and healing green of the heart region, the blue of the throat(sound), the violet of the "third eye" (logic, thinking), the indigo of the Crown, (Spirituality, consciousness), and the other more abstract transcendental aspects of our "Being", are easily altered by SPIRIT simply BEING ...

This is not the lower or emotional frequencies of personal or physical love or sex and procreation and survival, which has natural "needs", but "Eternal LOVE", a Universal force of higher vibration that does not "DO" from need, but actuates by BEING ... not "BE-coming"...

David Bohm, physicist, (The Holographic Universe) would call the Potential, the Implicate (inside, implied, interior, or not "actuated"). And the Actual, he would call the Explicate (what is outside, exterior, or actuated). This material reality has been called temporal reality or the illusion, and it includes the measuring stick (of the REALITY of MOTION) called: TIME.

MOTION has a potential aspect that the Universe Expands into. All Universal Motion is not actuated. If there was no POTENTIAL or "implicate", there would be no MOTION that Actuates ... and there is ... we simply see it and feel it. Nothing stands Still! Stillness is an illusion in, and of the MIND.

As Below, the same above. Just as virtual particles become real(actuated) and return to the "virtual" state of the Vacuum or the quantuum foam, hence are "in motion", all the love is also not "actuated" but much of it is in "POTENTIAL" form or IMPLICATE ... for SPIRIT to "MOVE" or actuate... or to expand IT's BEING!!


4d-don | Wed, 10/13/2010 - 05:36
shubham giri's picture

living guru

This is very delishis topic.....i can to the detail explain false fools gurus.....bat still i learn from them something good somebody specialy in iscon they believe then one who is repeating word of guru is guru...
to some extend...becouse if he not have a realization is difuclt to understend anything yet even he is pretending...still becouse he is reapeat words of real guru,it can benefit somebody.
Other point is we need guru to go even proper piss and after use bit stop it coming aut......
Guru is living in his words and books till time they are changed...
also even they are not change can be falsely interprated.
For not need of need krpa mersi of god
Guru deped olso which path to understand brahnman we can by mental speculation...or mistic experiment...seing unvisible...and so....visible for children
We can also understand yoga proces ....bat vithout teachers and you will found....rigth pranayama and asanas......
It is grace of vedas
guru sastra sadhu
Other point is then god revile to you according how much you are surendered to him and he is doing it wrom heard inside...
Other thing which i read bsomewhere is then if you can menage to remove energi from root chakra to head in one time whithout stoping on other you are spirituali independent.
other point is 24 four gurus of dattatreya prostitute....pigeons...sun.....moon trees.........they are living gurus


shubham giri | Tue, 10/19/2010 - 18:38
4d-don's picture

Another Dimension

Shubham giri...

You say:


Some atheists get what "THEY" want but without any violence or any necessity to "cut off" anything, not even what they think is "WRONG" or corrupt or greedy and serving the few at the cost of the many (pyramidal power structures). ... The atheists are simply expressing their "FREEDOM" to believe or not... or more accurately, what to believe. Atheists believe in SOMETHING ... Many just don't believe "THAT" (the "theist" concept of a male GOD) concept of our ONE-ness or ALL-ness.

That is one of the basic rights and FREEDOMS acquired by the evolution of the democratic institutions over time, which is now at the stage of the inclusion of the 5th estate, "the peasantry" or the "common Joe", the "BLOGGER", into the pyramid and/or into the other volumes, the spherical or GLOBAL, and the SPIRAL structures of power and/or ENERGY. Pyramid structures are effective for vectored or directed energy, and the circular and/or Spiral structures are effective conceptual models for the emanated or radiated ENERGY.

It will not be necessary to "cut off" the corporate (or state...bureacratic) pyramid. There is also no need to yell (all caps), be emotional, or use "Jihad" (use of violence, which is simply empowering another PYRAMIDAL Structure ...yours) we will simply conceptually unite the structures (pyramid, circle, spiral, n...dimension...) and unite them in MOTION (spin) creating first a spiral and/or making them DYNAMIC and responsive to the needs (survival) of the users, or the citizenry.

This is done by balancing and/or continually tweaking the (male) societal PYRAMID, an effective implementational structure, with the (female) CIRCLE or arc or the Circle at the planning and decision making process. The pyramidal structure can remain functional at the implementation process (to get things done) ... with the clear direction of NUMBERS directly from the users, the electorate. Users can then vote on the efficiency of a specific pyramid structure, in a "gross national happiness" model or a circular structure (empowering the user, THE true MASTER of the house, and increasing his/her responsibility).

That empowering of the FEMALE (young adults? children? new residents, etc...) has already begun, and, as usual, it is opposed or sabotaged most aggressively by the "male dominated" RELIGIONS, who want to continue using the "pyramid" with God and the Godman's concept of God (male), at the top(theocracy). That transformation is at hand.

The pyramid is an effective structure for military, police, business (luxuries, extras, etc...) To cut off the "corporate" as if it was a real threat to our survival, is to relinquish our individual power to a pyramidal concept (corporatism) which has no power except that given by some (few) of the estates ... NOW,the estates are all represented at the INTERNET MEETING VIRTUAL ROOM, there is no one disempowered any more for the corporations or other pyramidal structures to abuse or profiteer from. There is only the ALL (all the estates) for the pyramids to serve equally in their needs (goods and services) of survival. That means that the pyramid, if controlled, will implement the will of the USERS, the electorate, the MASTERS OF THE GlOBAL house... or be CHANGED!

For the decision-making process, thanks to the promises of the technology, we are NOW moving towards a "Direct Democracy" and VOTING ON THE ISSUES, with "None of the Above" (NOTA), and "Abstain" on the ballot,and COUNTED in BINDING initiatives. Some of these are already in use in the Corporate (pyramidal) Structure and enpower the greedy corporated shareholders.

Everyone living in a "bio-region" (water-shed, air-shed) should have the power to participate in the decisions of that REGION, should they wish. That is a spiral structure. One outside the Direct Democratic power structure (imigrants, refugees, explorers, travelers, foreign students, etc ...) can initiate some of decision-making processes and then leave freely with some agreed-upon (voted on) restrictions, of course. Ie Switzerland: 50,000 signatures for a non-constitutional iniative and a vote by the citizenry, and 100,000 signatures for a "constitutional initiative.

Just my thoughts...


4d-don | Sat, 10/23/2010 - 22:59
shubham giri's picture

ahimsa....definitation.....nonviolance means to help peaple devolop love of who is not doing it das not matter invidual officis or piramids and govermants.....making violance....atheism is violanc by self...killers of the soul....
First duty of an inteligen man is to dethron such rascal leaders who building stone boat fro humanati and all who follow them goin with them to hell
By their expresion of freedom they make annother loose them freedom and be opresed are unther control.......forces....they forse you to do what the signers desided you must do fuck off i will no wanna do what you tell me.....bullet int head........
they have free will bat missusit for....thei own interes actualy not even for they they interes becouse they identifiing with bags of stool a decorating it from morning to night and their propaganda slougheholters shool szstem tv...propagand brainfosh peaple and give this sence objects to make them in pasion....or ignorance.....than they will be afraid like that manipulated ......of course by...they make fear thats well they corupt peaple by luxury and even seid yoju can still enjoi system,of cource i can.......bat on the price of the destruction of the planet......

thera are unlimited vaikunta planets in spiritual ski and ratio is of them to material planets is tree to one.Thus poor materialist is busi macing political adjusmants on planet that is most insignificant
in gods creation.TO SAI NOTHIG ABAUT THIS PLANET earththe whoole universe with unnurable planetstrough galaxies,is comparable to a single seed with baxs of seeds.Bat the poor materialistmake plans to live confortably here and thus wasting their valuablehuman energi in somethig that isdoomed by flustration.Instead of wasting your time with bissnis speculations you may have sought live of plain and high spiritual thinking and thuse save your self fromprpetual materialistic unrest.

.tHE AUTORIYEID books and spiritual masters are available in this world although they are not apreciated or even notice by those who are main actors on the stage of material life.These main actors come and go.These main actors come and go,shining briefly like fireflies and shine in nigh afdter go and are replace by anothers.......
so my tendenci to replace tham si natural.
The present age ..when actual luminiaries are covered by cloude like ignorance The only light is suplied by politician,enterteirnes and sport heroes who dont care to heare hear abaut a spiritual world.Bat if one is disgusted enough with fanfare and grindig misery of material endevoers he may seeking associtaion of devoties whe are in disciplic succesion from eternal vedic true.

shubham giri | Sun, 10/24/2010 - 11:46
shubham giri's picture

and as well wise man is not

and as well wise man is not lamenting for living not for deat arjuna wake up and fight.......ABC ..alfabet of spiritual life......BHAGAVATAGITA....we have tomake nonviolance by benefitig peaple eternaly not just a body......
in this aqge we figt with knowladge....mabe cop up was not wrigt worl lets sei dethron them sound beter.....and it is my exprecion of freedom

shubham giri | Sun, 10/24/2010 - 12:02
shubham giri's picture

as well we need

as well we need democraci.....thas pozitiv thinking of mine ...becous we habve a king

shubham giri | Sun, 10/24/2010 - 12:04
4d-don's picture

FREEDOM... Tolerance... LOVE... Charity... HOPE... SPIRIT... ONE

Hi all...

I sure am glad that ONE, is not so extreme when dealing with those who don't believe like IT !! I will put my faith in ONE and try and convince others, my "fellow-man", to try and "come together" with words and not with "bullets int head" ...

That fundamentalist religious attitude of some parts of mankind, propagated by RELIGION and pseudo-spirituality and/or Spiritualism, or cults of an INDIVIDUAL made of carbon, has not helped mankind in the past and will not help the species survive in the future ... That history of RELIGION is the history of intolerance, war, suffering and violence. Some Religions have always divided and some religions breed intolerance for the FREEDOMS of others.

Mankind has survived in spite of them. There have always been those who would take up arms and in exasperation and frustration, "fight back" but there are also those who take their people to another country or in the mountains, the jungles, the swamps, where the militarists (militants) "religious conquerors" can't or don't want to venture because of the "perils" of nature ...

The Western and the Eastern militarist religions have to be disempowered by their "users", in favour of secularism, which is more "tolerant" of religion than religion is of IT. Secularism is also more just, and more fair. Ask the "homosexuals". We can think up a better way than the "bullet int head" solution of the "chosen of God" ... a male god and a very "intolerant" and favouritist god ... intolerant of ITS (not male) own creation!

ONE is also tolerance ... Those who claim to represent a god, or act as "chosen of their god" are not very tolerant of others who have a different concept of the ONE-ness of our UNI-verse (uni=ONE ....

By talking with sound, "WORDS", or with EM (electromagnetic) energy using symbols and letters typed on the INTERNET, we can go on, and still talk tomorrow ... A bullet will stop the conversation. The solution of the "bullet" is not a just solution and does not come from ONE but from the mind of religious MAN who has no other better "ideas" and relies on the solutions of the PAST, as taught to them by their "militarist" scriptures! ...

The Volcano, the Hurricane, the Earthquate, the flood, can come from All (Creation, Nature) ... or ONE and ALL.

My "god" does not carry a gun or a bomb, and does not threaten my FREEDOM!! The only one who now THREATENS his fellow-humans, is MAN (either the criminal, the mentally ill or deviant, and the religious) ... And it is MAN who uses "made-up" RELIGION, and many other "isms" (communism, corporatism (fascism), etc...) to attempt to silent those with better "ideas" and/or non-violent solutions

We are becomning GLOBAL ... CIVILIZATION ONE (Michio Kaku, physicist) ... let us learn "tolerance" for the Love of ONE and in realization of the ONE-ness of ALL ...

Don ...

4d-don | Sun, 10/24/2010 - 17:59
4d-don's picture

When the World is ONE...

Hi all...

When the world (planet) is ONE, if it is still organized with pyramids (at the implementation level), the users of the services will have the tool to replace the top of the pyramid. It will not be a "bullet". It will be a "ballot" ... We, the users, will vote on the efficiencies of bureaucracies by department, and in a dynamic "gross national happiness" system, will change the Pyramid and make it respond to, and serve the "users" of these systems.

The tool of our societal ONE-ness is a BALLOT !! A DIRECT Democracy!

Even the Master, the GURU, can be removed and replaced with a BALLOT in a DIRECT Democracy!

But the wise and truly SPIRITUAL seeker will simply remove him/herself from the Religious PYRAMID, leaving the pyramid exist for the "needy" who NEED it, and in "tolerance" sing:

Oh FREEDOM... Oh FREEDOM... ;-))


4d-don | Sun, 10/24/2010 - 18:24
shubham giri's picture

bullet in the head thats not

bullet in the head thats not be bat your leaders.....and as well you going away from thema.....iand of course i will defend my self/.........i wroti it just becouse some mayavade bereft of inteligent preching onnes.......bath dont know abaut achinta bedabeda tatva....if i broke cokanat and take peace is a pease cocanat yes bat simuntaneosly not.....becouse is on the flore.You are like a fly sitting on shit even there is so many beutifull flover .....
of cource confernce of pease sied all religion are like many flovers on on one field....see the beuty of oll.....bat the point is then one i choos put by roots toxins to earth nothing else can grow can not be replace speak nonsence....a
he can be replace only if he is a false guru....becouse guru dont fell........ewen you can trancend duality and become one.....does not mean dualiti not are just not affctet you you wont seid then angels shud hide in principles of bhakti like
tolerance and dont figt denmons......

yue have true it does not help in past not in fuce bat it helping now.
i know not so many peaple will agree.....bat somebody will dethron them .....and as well worl will turned vedic
yoa actualy just pickup shit ...bat you are olso under defect of can try confince enyone bat trys not work.....onnes......yes bat simentaneosly diferent of course we can speak .....and speak and what abaut action.....surely yoa are one in the bout of stoun.....

shubham giri | Sun, 10/24/2010 - 19:05
shubham giri's picture



shubham giri | Sun, 10/24/2010 - 19:10
shubham giri's picture



shubham giri | Sun, 10/24/2010 - 19:15
shubham giri's picture



shubham giri | Sun, 10/24/2010 - 19:15
4d-don's picture

You who Pray for Peace but Serve the "gods of war"...

Hi again...

Like you, I once prayed for Peace, but served the gods of war. Now I don't use my POWER to destroy even your mythical "demons". One does not need to "invent" demons to see that the "evil" is in the hearts of "RELIGIOUS MEN". There is a better mythology than one of "opposites" or "duality" ... God and Satan fighting for ETERNITY?? We, the people in the west are tired of all that "waste of time"... We have already removed a lot of the power of Religion in our lives... NOT ONE...But the evil that dwells in the hearts of men who hide inside RELIGIOUS Structure and propagate and promote WAR and VIOLENCE ... It's time for the EAST to have their REFORMATION...

This world belongs to us, not to THEM!! If we act as if we were the Masters of our World, and not serve the "gods of war", then there would be no war. Of course, unless those who plan, study, and get others to die for their "silly plans", unless they would go and fight, "die" for, and by themselves ...

Eventually, there will be less of them and more of us and we will have PEACE and we will treat their "greed" and their "need for megalomaniacal Conquering the world" as a DIS-ease...

Religion is a OPIATE and those who chant "Peace" one day, and "war" the next are like "manic-depressive" of the psychiatric field ...they go up and down like a YOYO and are stuck in the DUALITY of life where, as on a Merry-go-round, they finally perpetrate all the evils against their own kind (that they attach to "demons"), as a vain attempt to escape from their PRISON ... Evil dwells in the hearts of RELIGIOUS MEN. Of course, we know that no ones gains peace by going to war... Fighting (war) so as to have peace is like fornicating for virginity ... It is an "oxymoron" or a contradiction ...

To cut the Pyramid will only leave one with two smaller "pyramidal volumes"... one does not "eliminate" anything .... we must grow through it...not around it... or attempt to KILL IT... If we kill it, we become the evil, the "killer" who then must be killed by others like us ... and on, and on, and on... it is called the "bite of the Vampire"... One can't fight EVIL... One must BE GOOD...


4d-don | Sun, 10/24/2010 - 20:15
shubham giri's picture

living entity is no slair

living entity is no slair and is not slai
what you said......atmavan manyate jagat project your self on are evil
me not on you becouse i see you true eyas of the sripures
when the arguments are finish you go evay from point and use personal attack peaple on west are tired from them self dont put responsibility to them are evel.....not mast trancend good and and bad.......not to be in beginig ....your arguments beging with ones i desprowe your foolisch mayavada teory till time you desproove acintya beda beda tatva.....there is nod need to diskoos with you anything becouse you are
many peaple thing abaut it like myth bath is fact and history......and just becouse you are in maya you are not fit of your admin pozision......i actualy agree with in some points......
bat evel olso can read from bible......

shubham giri | Mon, 10/25/2010 - 07:07
shubham giri's picture

you shud go to rainbow not

you shud go to rainbow not on gurus feet if you like to be hipee.....there is no guru no go away from gurugis feet if you dont like religion.....we folow btrue like aur religion true is
your a govermant is dethronded

shubham giri | Mon, 10/25/2010 - 07:11
shubham giri's picture

so till time you are

so till time you are dispruve argument achinta beda beda tatva ....onennes and simultaneos diferincity you are defited and i nod need to schood see....few word are not enaff........

shubham giri | Mon, 10/25/2010 - 07:15
shubham giri's picture

there is tree kind of

there is tree kind of afraid from bad carma
or you want somthing .......or you want to be instrument of higr will of god.......
bat what you want is want peasfuly sleep eat and have monkey and donkey....haaa

shubham giri | Mon, 10/25/2010 - 07:18
4d-don's picture

going going gone...

Bye... Bye...


4d-don | Mon, 10/25/2010 - 07:54
Shogon's picture

Connection of GURU

I think a living Guru is slightly more important as he's one with God and God works through him.we can still learn from the teachings of a Guru thats left the body.
Do we not want to look upon God in the flesh as in Krishna, Buddha, Rama, Jesus, to hear their very words in our ears, maybe even to touch them, to bow to them in person.
Do we not love and adore our Gurus, to be in their service and learn from them.
Does a Guru not teach us how to elevate ourselves to be like him and all He wants in return is that we do the same for others.
We can worship Images of God, some worship God as pure with no attributes,But we see the flesh more easily because we are in the flesh, how easy is it to Love your wife, husband, children, friends beause they are in the body also.
But remember all of this is free will and the choice is always yours, How you see God and how you Return to Him is your Journey, everyone else are just travelers.

OM Shanti Shanti Shanti

Shogon | Tue, 02/22/2011 - 09:35
no1wakesup's picture

Guru holds tremendous

Guru holds tremendous purpose and meaningful concepts for the mind only. That separate state needs that duality in order to move forward. However, it just another vice for the mind declaring just and confirming individuality

Remove the concept and title based in separation of "other" and guru is not there.

Simple discourse is fine, pointers etc..however to convey does not mean to give and for the other to receive. There is no mysterious or sacred antidote for a mind which insists that it remains, in some facet, post liberation. It is more like a familiarity that awakens by a conscious quality already in place. It is this familarity which sits quietly amidst all the conceptual planning, step by step procedures and tools to enlightenment in order to arrive where you already are.

Awareness, which seems to be what everyone is shifting to around the world today, is not liberation. Yet many gurus' make a killing on that premise. They sell awareness as liberation and so have many customers. There is duality still in that subject (awareness) and the object ( mind, thoughts,concepts)in place. It is in this awareness where we still find ourselves negotiating between form and a perceived formless, something and a perceived nothing. The quality of familiarity that is their remains untouched by this negotiation as if an obvious presence which waits for self awareness...where the awareness which observes the mind becomes aware of itself as primary. In that seeing everything collapses as un-authentic.

no1wakesup | Thu, 02/24/2011 - 23:11
4d-don's picture

We are "recycled", not Re-incarnated! No carbon is more than...

The carbon (atoms, molecules) which is all of us, including the GURU, is recycled carbon, and if some memory remains of what that carbon was before, it is not because we, OR guru was that conscious carbon memory in the past. It speaks to the holographic nature of the universe. We are all re-cycled carbon, the same carbon recycled.

As we read a book and empathize with a character, it is not because we were that character in the past, but because of the skills of the writer.

To attach more importance to one "DIRECTION" (Guru) than to all directions speaks to the "need" of the entity seeking to be led or told what to do, think, say, etc. and to not decide for and by itself, not to the Universal REALITY (divine?) or even to the accuracy of the in-formation.

In-formation alludes to the fact that IT (LIFE), has not been LIVED yet for this conscious re-cycled carbon, and hence, all information about the course to take is of importance to life's evolutionary FREEDOM, as this part of LIFE is "IN-FORMATION", and as yet un-manifest, hence POTENTIAL or IMPLICATE.

Everyone's path is unique and each entity can make a decision based on ITS own experience and the information available to ALL, not just to a GURU! Or a TEACHER. No one would let one's teacher in "english grammar", for example, decide on the meaning of a choice of new, slang or invented word, except a very "slavish" personality. Then, in that case, it is the personality which should be "fixed" and not the Teacher.

A cedar tree does not have to become a fir tree to be "LIBERATED" or en-lightened.

Gurus or religious leaders are like words, they are cheap. They are a dime a dozen. For every insecure and needy person, a GURU or an ADVISOR, or a CONSULTANT will arise and profiteer from the "lack" in others, and make a good material living from their so-called implicate "divinity"! We got rid of "divine rights of kings" in the 12th century. Now it's time for the dictatorial "godmen" to go in PEACE and live their own lives.

And still the manifest or explicate UNIVERSE is a PLENUM(+) not a EMPTINESS. And the un-manifest, the implicate universe is a POTENTIAL (-), not a "NOTHING" (0).

SPIRIT, not "spirits"! BEING, not "beings"!


4d-don | Sat, 02/26/2011 - 18:45
Gilana's picture

You are a fool

I was considering your points until your judgments became insulting.

"To attach more importance to one "DIRECTION" (Guru) than to all directions speaks to the "need" of the entity seeking to be led or told what to do, think, say, etc. and to not decide for and by itself, not to the Universal REALITY (divine?) or even to the accuracy of the in-formation."

"Gurus or religious leaders are like words, they are cheap. They are a dime a dozen. For every insecure and needy person, a GURU or an ADVISOR, or a CONSULTANT will arise and profiteer from the "lack" in others, and make a good material living from their so-called implicate "divinity"! We got rid of "divine rights of kings" in the 12th century. Now it's time for the dictatorial "godmen" to go in PEACE and live their own lives."

Bad news for you - I definitely have a Guru, I definitely bow and surrender completely to him,AND I definitely think for my self, am not "told what to do or think or say, etc" and would not listen or comply if I was. I feel sorry for you - you have obviously never met or opened yourself to a real Guru. It is self-evident: You would never use the words you have chosen so immaturely if you had.

And,I definately do not need the likes of you insulting my spiritual path or my Guru. I've had it with you egoic, self-constructed know it alls, who put together non-sensical words in an attempt to insinuate that you actually have some knowledge. If you want to show your arrogance and ignorance, go hang with the other religious know it alls who talk about hell and damnation, letting their talk take all of their attention away from living the truth. Stop irritating me.

I don't care who you are or what you have experienced. You are obviously fake, you have no compassion or understanding and you don't know how to get your point across without the capital key on the keyboard. If you really understood what you are saying you understand, you would speak with softness and compassion, awe and surrender. In contrast your voice is loud oppressive.

If you had really achieved anything real, you would have nothing but love and respect for the other people of your level who are out there giving their life energy to helping those who have enough humility to ask for it.

I suggest that you are the one who is trying to tell people what to think, what to say and what to do. And I suggest that you are so "needy" that you cannot benefit from a true Guru without surrendering that which does not need to be surrendered - your individuality. I suggest that you are aware of this and afraid that your own lack of self, of truth, of divinity would compel you to become a slave instead of freed by exposure to the truth.

Jesus was crucified, Socrates was poisoned, as was Osho. Unenlightened people are just too intimidated by enlightenment - the contrast is too shameful. We want to kill, insult and negate that which has achieved more than we have because it just makes us feel bad in comparison. But it's a big mistake to kill, insult and negate your big brother or sister - they have their hand out to you to pull you up to their level. Spitting on them is just stupid.

P.S. "A cedar tree does not have to become a fir tree to be "LIBERATED" or en-lightened." Foolish - trees do not have egos, do not have a choice through a mind/body. A tree has never been conditioned to believe in anything. It has no ego to master. No tree is liberated or en-lightened.

Gilana | Sat, 02/26/2011 - 21:32
4d-don's picture

Hi Gilana... Good for you...

Hi Gilana...

Good for you... Now you can "manage your money" according to "his" instructions, but by your words, and your lack of self-control, I would not call your path, "divine" or your MASTER, spiritually en-lightened ...

And capitals don't make a "SOUND", they are used by some for "intensifying", not for YELLING ... You did not hear a sound did you? None, except maybe the ones coming our of your own EGO, or as an illusion from your dualistic MIND, and not from your part (or mine) of SPIRIT.

If I was transmitting a sound, you could call it that, but I am not. I am transmitting typed words, or "light" and light does not make a sound, and neither do CAPITALS.

I am FREE to express what I want here and everywhere, specially here, where they keep asking me (by e-mails) to "come and participate" ... they must want us all to participate!

I am sure that a good "shrink" would help your lack of "control" as much as your GURU seems to. He does not seem very good at his "chosen" path, if you are his "fruit", his PR, an example of his "SUCCESS".

Why feel sorry for those who are FREE and do according to their own FREE WILL. Is it not those other guys (those who are needing a personal or spiritual consultant, or LEADER), who need your "sorry state". I don't, I am FREE and I take responsibility for what I do and say. And I don't get depressed... as I live life "intensely"... so I am always in a state of more gratefulness, and joy, and of then less gratefulness and joy on the down side of the wave.

Hey! I had a GURU and I even followed the "son of GOD", Jesus of Nazareth, a carpenter, that is the son of GOD the FATHER, as HE is a MALE and not a FEMALE... There are no females in some religious "Pantheon" of gods. But that is ok by you, as long as you obey them and do as they tell you. And if you surrender to them then you are SAVED ... NOT FOR ME!! I am FREE!! MY ONE is more "rational" and JUST than that!

You can "stop irritating" yourself, as we are doing here what this site is for, giving our opinion as the ownersw ask. Doesn't your GURU help you at all? Try a PRO!! Find a man! Have sex! lol lol Oh that's right, you already have!! Find one who solves problems not one who simply gives you "NOT MUCH" for the ego and "anger" problem you seem to have.

I don't want to "kill" or "insult" any one person, but I will speak my MIND about any self-appointed profession or titles, as we are still FREE in this part of the WORLD ... It seems that by the way you speak, that we would not be FREE, if you had your way! We probably would have a THEOCRACY and your GURU would be the DICTATOR for LIFE of course. Who could stand against him as he is PERFECT, all-knowing and self- illumined ... or are you following an "imperfect" person, just like yourself?

"Oh no, I ain't lying, there ain't no sense in the nonsense!!"

As well as "divinity" and SPIRITUALITY, now you also want to have all the "sense" and to judge others. Sense is also " evolutionary" and what makes sense to you today, may be "non-sense" tomorrow. If you see anything "non-sensical" you speak to and debate that ... I think I make a lot of sense, or you would not treat me as such a THREAT to you and your GURU... or your "chosen path" ...

I will judge any so-called "experts" (a position, not a person), if I want to and I will say what I want about those who want to "self-title" and make claims of "spirituality" or to be able to help others in the art called LIFE!!

What GURU University did your GURU graduate from? Has he been tested by a panel of arms-lenght judges? Did he pass any exams? What were his scores? Would you not check your "surgeon" and his credentials, success rates, law-suits, etc ... But for "un-manifest" and invisible gifts, you don't check? You would have others also "not check" and verify, but you expect all to take your word for IT... You, or your guru, know all the PATHS of others, and can advise all on their journey to the un-manifest??

You speak of "their level" as if you know what that level is... What is it? Many so-called GURUS simply make it up. If the other GURUS are at the seventh lever, then some will claim to be on the 13th level or higher... INFINITY plus ONE .... If what you've become is "their level" then I will have to pass on that path ... I would rather try a "good movie" or a friend, or a bar-tender, or a Psy.

And if life is conscious, ALL life is "conscious"... even the tree, and animals and even the "crystals", the molecules and the atoms. ... They all at least contain the latent or POTENTIAL of consciousness. Don't you believe anything of what GURUS teach?

The world in a grain of sand... the UNIVERSE IS ALIVE, and CONSCIOUS... I don't need a GURU, as information and transmission is EVERYWHERE ... and going to everyone all the TIME.

Why should I go to a "HUMAN", a carbon based entity who will transform and become something else, who has an EGO, if I can go to its MASTER, ITS CREATIVE, SPIRIT, ONE, the CREATIVE of ALL ...

Take a deep breath ... this too shall pass.

Think for yourself and speak your mind, and if possible, make your MIND synchronize with what is SPIRIT!! It's all ENERGY anyway...

Why not put them in sync and then play with it, put them out of sync, creating tension (reducing stress), and sing the blues, and have fun ... play, laugh, joke, cry, empathize, rage, LIVE... Heal yourself. You only have ONE JOURNEY ... this is IT. It never stops, IT is ETERNAL.

You will not DIE you will transform and you will be "RECYCLED"...


4d-don | Sun, 02/27/2011 - 02:29
Gilana's picture

"Now you can "manage your

"Now you can "manage your money" according to "his" instructions,"
What are his instructions?

"but by your words, and your lack of self-control, I would not call your path, "divine" or your MASTER, spiritually en-lightened ..."

How do you know I lack self-control?
Why would you not call my path divine?
What is your criteria to judge what divinity is?
What has my master got to do with this conversation?

"And capitals don't make a "SOUND", they are used by some for "intensifying", not for YELLING"
Capital are universally know as loud, emphatic.

"You did not hear a sound did you? None, except maybe the ones coming our of your own EGO, or as an illusion from your dualistic MIND, and not from your part (or mine) of SPIRIT."
Why would you assume that sound comes from an ego?
How do you know I have a dualistic mind?
How do you know that they don't come from spirit?

I am sure that a good "shrink" would help your lack of "control" as much as your GURU seems to. He does not seem very good at his "chosen" path, if you are his "fruit", his PR, an example of his "SUCCESS".
How do you know a good "shrink" would help me as much as my Guru?
Why do you assume my guru has a chosen path?
Why do you assume I am his "fruit?"

Why feel sorry for those who are FREE and do according to their own FREE WILL.
That is not why I feel sorry for you.

Hey! I had a GURU and I even followed the "son of GOD", Jesus of Nazareth, a carpenter, that is the son of GOD the FATHER, as HE is a MALE and not a FEMALE... There are no females in some religious "Pantheon" of gods. But that is ok by you, as long as you obey them and do as they tell you. And if you surrender to them then you are SAVED ... NOT FOR ME!! I am FREE!! MY ONE is more "rational" and JUST than that!

Why do I care if there are no females in some religious "Pantheon" of gods?
How do you know what is ok by me?
Why do you think I obey "them" and do as they tell me?
What does SAVED mean?
How does not SAVED make you FREE?

You can "stop irritating" yourself, as we are doing here what this site is for, giving our opinion as the ownersw ask. Doesn't your GURU help you at all? Try a PRO!! Find a man! Have sex! lol lol Oh that's right, you already have!! Find one who solves problems not one who simply gives you "NOT MUCH" for the ego and "anger" problem you seem to have.
You don't have to be insulting to give your opinion.
Why do you suggest I find a man or have sex?
What is lol about?
How do you know I already have?
What does Not much mean?
How do you know I am angry? or that it is a problem?

You are mean.

We probably would have a THEOCRACY and your GURU would be the DICTATOR for LIFE of course. Who could stand against him as he is PERFECT, all-knowing and self- illumined ... or are you following an "imperfect" person, just like yourself?
This sounds like fear. And nonsense.
Who said I am imperfect?

And if life is conscious, ALL life is "conscious"... even the tree, and animals and even the "crystals", the molecules and the atoms. ... They all at least contain the latent or POTENTIAL of consciousness. Don't you believe anything of what GURUS teach?
How do you know?
(No, I do not believe anything Gurus teach. I either know or I don't. P.S. Gurus don't teach.)

I think I make a lot of sense, or you would not treat me as such a THREAT to you and your GURU... or your "chosen path" ...
You are not a threat - you are rude and insulting.

Why should I go to a "HUMAN", a carbon based entity who will transform and become something else, who has an EGO, if I can go to its MASTER, ITS CREATIVE, SPIRIT, ONE, the CREATIVE of ALL ...
If you can do without a master, that's fine. Just don't insult people who choose to have a master. And, if you are enlightened, I suggest you do something good for the world instead of judging others as "needy" "slaves" and telling everybody what to believe.

Think for yourself and speak your mind, and if possible, make your MIND synchronize with what is SPIRIT!! It's all ENERGY anyway...

Stop telling me what to do.

Gilana | Sun, 02/27/2011 - 06:55
4d-don's picture

Do not a Slave or a Master be!

Hi Gilana

You can do what you want. I will do what I want and I will say what I want "DIRECTLY". The time for hiding and cowering is behind us... before we had the MEDIA as a tool... Now we have to speak the WORLD we want... and not let anything exist that is "flawed", such as RELIGION, the "chosen", the "special" etc... They are all "myths", to entertain the children. "Once upon a time, in a land far away, there were "special" people... not like you and I, but special ... chosen by GOD ... NO MORE!! God is ONE... IT does not chose "one" above the "other". The cedar does not have to beoome a fir, to be "LIBERATED" or "SAVED".

I don't make my living by telling others what to do. I encourage all to be FREE from the things that they just found out, and not become "dogmatic" in anything, specially in this Age of Transformation, or these "Seasons of Changes". He/she who will survive in these changing times won't be tied upon the ground.

As the song goes: "A man gets tied upon the ground, he give the world, it's saddest sound."

The guru business is simply that, a business. No credentials needed. If a person can't make a living doing, he/she can teach or tell others what to do or how to do it.

In the Sahaj Marg(tm) (trade-marked for trade and commerce) which I am now "exposing", the main principle is to OBEY!!... and obey to the point of "killing the mother" (immorality), if told by the GURU. The path to the "GREAT MORALITY" is through obedience to the point of immorality. Just as in a dictatorship or a THEOCRACY. And of course, they (the leaders of Sahaj Marg(tm) practice "racism", homophobia,nationalism, and other imperialist "religious flaws" which we all know ... and their GURU is a self-titled GURU or MASTER, they call him.

I speak to my experience with GURUS, and my FREEDOM to speak (use words) is what makes me "civilized" and is what is encouraged on this site. I don't take up guns. We, the people, don't have to anymore. We can defeat those sick ideas with words ... on the NET.

And the, we meet apologists like you! Not all Gurus are like the Sahaj Marg(tm) variety, or the Christian "perverted brothers and sisters", and priests, but there are a lot of them who are even worst than that. Some so-called Sufis Masters (gurus) are allegedly involved in the insurgency in Iraq (Jihad). (the Naqshbandiyya Sufi Order).

Not very "divine" or even civilized.

Go in peace ...


4d-don | Sun, 02/27/2011 - 18:39
Shogon's picture

I can see

Hi don,
I can see what your saying has truth in it,i followed the links on your blogs and there's alot of false people claiming to be this and that. But your up against 4,000 years, that we know about of tradition, and there is still alot of genuine gurus,swamis etc out there. The are the ones that guide you until your confident enough to walk the path alone, some people are capable of already going it alone. the problem is the false ones do it for their own ends, money, power, the prey on those who want a more spiritual life and are easily led. People need to place their faith in something or someone, whether it be God, Guru or themselves, if you knock it or shatter it where does that leave them. Are we all not hear to learn or Guide.

Om shanti shanti

Shogon | Sun, 02/27/2011 - 20:09
4d-don's picture

Faith in the ONE-ness of ALL or the ALL-ness of ONE - non-local

You and I agree with: "People need to place their faith in something or someone, whether it be God, Guru or themselves..."

I would also say, not a faith in a hard, static or solid NOUN or a BEING, but an attribute, a quality or a number, have faith in ONE or ALL or the ONE-ness of ALL, (or the ALL-ness of ONE) which IS Everything, Everywhere and Everywhen ... hence, IS also inside one's self as SPIRIT(1) and dual(2) as MIND, and multi(complex, 3+...) as Material (elements).

A true GURU would direct towards the higher dimensions (inner space and outer space) of space, (time being an illusion and simply a measurement of MOTION), where resides the implicate (David Bohm's Holographic Universe) reality (implicate being potential, subtle, SPIRIT, un-manifest...) in multi-dimensional space. The 4th dimension with its MOTION in "ana,cata" or "in and out oscillaiton/vibration is the intellectual portal by which we enter into "hyperspace", the other higher dimensions. (Michio Kaku).

Faith is necessary but we can direct our faith with LOGOS (logic) as well as MYTHOS (for the un-manifest, SPIRIT, implicate). We can assign to that newly realized (not created) space either a negative(-) or a positive(+) value, but a symbol which would indicate its difference from the "explicate" or created reality.

Nice chatting


4d-don | Sun, 02/27/2011 - 21:25
Gilana's picture

Slavery vs. ignoring

Slavery is unintelligent.

Ignorance is unintelligent.

The Guru is chosen through the heart - the essence of intelligence. My master was chosen through my heart, and I obey because I love the sacred more than I love limitation in any form. It is my freedom that compels me to choose love.

Choose your Master through your heart and you will choose divinty. Far past this world and all it's problems.

Gilana | Mon, 03/21/2011 - 18:15
Aryana's picture

No need of Guru Ji,

Dear friend, I think everywhere in india now money is the first thing and your love and surrenderness is second because i have been many many ashraams of many best guruji of India but could not enjoy so much.
Knowledge in inside you and god is the best teacher in inside of us. If you are ready to stand on the way of realization or advaita so you don't need to be worry so much about Guru. Be brave to sit in asana by keeping silence.All the next teaching come after first practice by time and effort.
Please don't mind me rough because it is only my feeling.

LOVe ARyana

LOVe ARyana

Aryana | Sat, 03/05/2011 - 13:39
4d-don's picture

The best teacher is inside us all...

Hi ARyana...

I agree.

One does not even have to be "religious", to accept and/or to adhere to that statement ... Even an atheist can adhere to it without believing or having faith in a "Being", outside of the self. If Spirit IS a UNIFYING Force in reality, then it must unify not only the many and various religions, but also those with no RELIGION, dogma or FAITH. Even Truth can be dynamic, and ONE becomes many, and many become ONE.

FROM the relative beginning which we "think", ONE became many.

Or ... FROM the relative beginning which we "think", the many ARE becoming ONE.

IT (LIFE or consciousness) is an Eternal journey which has no beginning in REALITY, we use the term "beginning" for our own limited and relative purpose, and IT never ends.

Eternal= No beginning and no end.
Infinity= Beginning but no end.

If SPIRIT is ONE, then ONE or ONE-ness (what some call God, Creator, Brahma, Great Spirit, etc...), is Everything, Everywhere, and Everywhen. What I call the E-Trinity, but without needing a BEING. As a seeker, SPIRIT is what we want to attain or reach, if SPIRIT is truly ONE. Then SPIRIT can be a higher or more subtle "dimension" or realm or REALITY than MIND, or MATTER. As the Russian Babushka dolls.

As P.D. Ouspensky (1878-1947 - Student of Gurdjieff) would say of his "Fourth Way", One does not have to be a fakir(body), a monk(emotions), or a yogi(Mind) to realize ONE or ONE-ness or to be a realized "consciousness" ... One can simply go the "fourth way", inside/outside or ana/kata, and seek ONE-ness there, where the duality of the manifest reality is still in its potential form, and/or is not yet "explicated" or manifest.

To use David Bohm's "Holographic Universe" theory and/or analogy: SPIRIT or ONE (or ONE-ness) is INSIDE ALL or in the Implicate (subtle, spirit, potential, un-manifest), and also on the OUTSIDE of All, or IN the Explicate (gross, matter, actuated, created, manifest). Both (implicate and explicate) can be either REAL or ILLUSION. And both can be seen as ONE, if looked at from the perspective of outside of both TOGETHER, or inside of BOTH individually.

"The Whole is in the part, in non-locality." (D. Bohm)

Black Elk, the Oglala Sioux Medicine man said:

"...saw more than I can tell, and understood more than I saw, for I was seeing in a sacred manner the shapes of all things in the spirit, and the shape of all shapes as they must live together as ONE (being).... Anywhere is the center of the world.

"God is a circle whose center is everywhere and its circumference nowhere." Empedocles, Greek Philosopher

Nice chatting with you ...


4d-don | Wed, 03/16/2011 - 01:54
doo's picture

In theory no and in reality must! It's a fact!

In theory what you say is true, but in reality, i tell you based on my experience and of others, that a living guru is mandatory. Leave the theories to the point when they become your experience.

In most cases the relunctancy to have a living guru is... ego. Put this aside and look for a guru. What can you loose except of your ego?

If you take what you wrote about the Self as the guru etc - then it would apply also in the case of non-spiritual people, not seekers, etc.

It apears that there is a need for some external authority to counter the mind. To guide you among the many pitfalls of the mind. No need for explenations why, it is a fact.

If you show me a veteran spiritual seeker, I will be able at once to tell you if he spent time with a living guru or he relied solely on books. I'm doing this diagnosis for years without a single error. There is some quality, some opening, some presence that you will never find in the case of those who never submitted to a living guru (even if he/she was a total fake).

doo | Wed, 03/16/2011 - 15:43
4d-don's picture

Pitfalls of Spirituality


Since you seem to be "hell-bent" on being taken in, and to risk falling into some (if not all) of the Pitfalls of Spirituality, then I will give you the link to this site of a government worker who was a disciple of one CEO/Guru, and was even his "Zonal-in-Charge" for the Netherlands ... until he seems to have realized that he was endorsing and/or promoting the Indian "right-wing" agenda of "racism", homophobia, attacks on other religions and cultures, DIASPORA, expansion into other commercial markets, etc ... and their flawed theology and morality/ethics of: God is male, Women can't be Gurus, Gays are "un-natural", Bill Gates and the Pope are "morally degraded" because they try and help those with AIDS, etc... so (it seems) as to grow the business of the MISSION.

This group (Sahaj Marg(tm) (trade marked for trade and commerce) uses Mediums to receive messages from the dead, pray for favourable egregores, and is generally more "recreational" and SPIRITUAL-ism than SPIRITUAL-ity!!

Frank (the Blogger) gives his "warnings" to all seekers who buy into the myth of the need for a GURU ...

It's not "doo" but BE, in Spirituality. Do and achieve is RELIGION. ;-))

We are not humans doing, we are human BEINGs!

If you can't find ONE or ONE-ness (what some call God) in your own back yard, you will surely not find IT (not a male) more in "exotica" or in someone else's back yard ... but you will be made to swallow a "sensation" and made to call it "Ultimate" or GOD (or some other foreign word ... But you will be divided from the rest ... you and the other groups of pseudo- "illuminated" ... One more religion or division in the name of ONE-ness or UNITING the world.

Remember, in INDIA, only the Brahmins caste can define the meaning of Sanskrit words ... no "whiteys"! You will be given "words" and you will be made to repeat them so as to "climb the ladder" of HOLINESS!

I think I'll start using French words which have no "English" translation, (I will claim), ... and thus become a GURU!! (un gourou!) lol lol ;-))

FIND your own TRUTH ... There is a path to ONE which starts where you are and is yours alone. You've got to walk that path by yourself, no one else can walk it for you.


4d-don | Wed, 03/16/2011 - 17:09
doo's picture

This is exactly a reason why one needs a living guru!

Of course there is a risk. In everything that you do and also that you don't do there is a risk (there was this man in Canada who once he was stepping out of his home one day, a refrigerator fell on his head - so you will never leave your home from now on?) but the greatest risk (or even not a risk but a sure catastrophe) is to remain at home with the book knowledge and dead gurus only and the fears.

Don't you see it? the exact moral character of the personality of the living guru is of less importance, there is this classical image we have of a "good" guru which is irrelevant. If you use honest judgement, you will find the right living guru/teacher for you, and if you will remain honest and diligent then even if the personality of that guru is presumably "bad" you will notice the specially-tailored lessons for you, that image presents to you and enhance spiritually. You will understand the reasons you were attracted to that guru and in these reasons lies your sadhana.

Those who were attracted to that guru you mention and similar were not attracted to him by accident. Their minds made them to surrender to him due to greed, ego, and other traits that should be handled. And instead of handling these traits through that opportunity they just fell deeper in their specific weaknesses that made them follow that guru in the first place and now makes them blame him and not see their inner conditioning.

You yourself says that there is the guru within, in other words, some supernatural intelligent force. That same metaphysical phenomenon exists also outside. Don't be skeptic now and abandon the realization of the metaphysical aspect when you search for an external living guru. The "badness" and "goodness" of the personality of the external guru are the same as of those of the one inside. It is up to you to be honest enough to notice them in both cases, understand the projection and transcend.

I say it again, the external living guru will help you, implicitly or explicitly, discover your mind's pitfalls that the mind, as an intermediate medium between "you" and your inner guru will easily obscure. There is no substitute to that. I tell you from extensive experience.

If you come with a pure heart and sincerity, you will find a "good" guru. And if not, you will notice what conditioning of you made you be attracted to the "bad" guru, deal with that conditioning and make your hear purer (and you will not consider that guru "bad" anymore but as the right one you needed at that time) and the next living guru you will surrender to will be purer.

See how the very search for the right living guru for you enables you to undergo a process that books cannot give you.

The first step is to investigate thoroughly and honestly the reasons within for the objection to have a living guru. The real reasons, not some here and then cover stories of others.

doo | Thu, 03/17/2011 - 05:49
4d-don's picture

CAVEAT EMPTOR... Buyer Beware!

Hi "Doo" or Don't ... ;-))

By those standards, every con-man and thief is one's guru! lol lol

I would say that The REAL Guru (the CREATIVE), is inside one's self or is EVERY-ONE (EVERY-THING) and EVERY-WHERE or EVERY-WHEN outside of one's self ... in other words: NO ONE, NO THING, NO-WHERE at NO TIME, outside of one's self.

No one can make decisions for others as no one stands in this particular place in the UNIVERSE ... All another person will have, even a self-titled Guru will be "second-hand" knowledge or what you call: "book knowledge" about the place, the body, and the state where this entity inhabits.

I don't speak from "knowledge" but also from personal experience with many such self-deluded godmen (con-men), and some who were simply trying to survive doing what they thought was needed and specially what was sale-able in a population of "ONE BILLION" ...

I have learned that the path of SPIRIT is in the REALITY of SPIRIT, where ALL is ONE-ness ... not in the outside world of MATTER and MIND, what some call the dualistic world or the ILLUSION. Hence, I learn from all the experiences I have, but in SPIRIT, ALL is ONE Nothing to learn, no improvement needed, etc... No growth possible. Simply BE. And BE HERE NOW!! (as Baba Ram Das said ... lol lol. And he would not lie, would he?)

My experience is the experience of ALL SPIRIT or ONE. So talking with you (or a guru), is like talking with me. To leave SPIRIT and journey the material world to seek your concept of GURU is going away from SPIRIT and into the charms and delusions of the Material and illusuory world. I am not afraid of it, it does not allure me.

If you would encourage my people to BE in SPIRIT, then lead them to their inner self, not to the outside world, with the myriads of con-men, and/or sell-outs (whores?), who are lurking around every corner, waiting for the gullible and un-suspecting seeker with a "sucker" stamped on their forehead and a dollar in their hand.

Save us (or spare us) from the SAVED, the pseudo-illumined, who would proselytize us to death.

SPIRITUALITY should be a REALITY, not a fantasy which can be sold or given ... I have nothing to learn but worldly knowledge from those who profess and preach outwardly, using words and MIND ... The main lesson being to avoid them like the plague.

To be in SPIRIT, they (the godmen or con-men) should come to this part of SPIRIT, this consiousness, this entity, on the INSIDE realm. Then, I will see (experience) if they are ONE in SPIRIT or REALITY, or if they disturb or interfere with ONE-ness, thus creating "duality".

If you can't do that, then "Talking" (words) is all we are here to do. And in talking, all we communicate is MIND, and in MIND, the dual trickster, it's a CAVEAT EMPTOR or buyer beware world ... that is good advice from anyone...


4d-don | Thu, 03/17/2011 - 18:32
Gilana's picture

Now - What do you know?

So far, it seems you are on an-anti guru campaign. Got it.
You say that everything you need is within. Got it.

Now, what do you know--not what can you defend, or promote...what do you actually know? I'm asking you to (words are inadequate, but) tell us of your silence, your ecstacy, your love, your expansion, and your compassion...

This is not a challenge, but I am tired of arguing and now tell us what you have come to that is really important.

Can you communicate what you have come to know on your path?
You seem very sincere - where have you gotten to? And how has the "guru within" helped you to get there?

Gilana | Mon, 03/21/2011 - 18:29
Gilana's picture

Hi doo

I laughed when I read your post - my guru describes his personality as "difficult." He says, "I'm not the warmest guy, although I have a certain warmth. I'm not the most charming personality, although I have my charms. But if you look at me as the 'example,' you are bound to be disappointed, to find fault, because there are plenty there to find."

So it must not have anything to do with your personality. He says, if you really want to get somewhere, look at where I am pointing to, not at the guy who is pointing. If personality was the criteria "I would not even be on the list. But I am willing and able to get out of the way," so that we can see the divinity he is pointing us to.

THAT is why I love him and I will surrender to him. Because certainly he will not take it for himself, he will use the love as fuel and the surrender as willingess to go deeper, to confront what I would not confront.

Gilana | Mon, 03/21/2011 - 18:59
Gilana's picture

My friend

Silence is certainly the best way to truth. Understanding it on your own is tricky.

My understanding is don't consider time and effort. They are impediments, because time makes it "in the future" and "effort" makes it "yours." Only presence and limitlessness can bring truth.

Gilana | Mon, 03/21/2011 - 18:20
4d-don's picture

Hi Gilana I sure hope that

Hi Gilana

I sure hope that anything you may claim that I "know", as it is all in transition or in trans-formation, and/or is forever changing, (I sure hope) that I am running FREE from those things that you think I know or that you think I "found out" (by reading). I hope they have not become "dogma"!! Hell, I could start a new religion, or self-title myself a guru!! ;-))

What I (and you and all) experience is a little more so-called "real" or "true" than what I know, but the interpretations of my experiences are also in trans-formation. That interpretation will change. And that is GOOD! We are then not prisoners to what we know or to what we experience, and hence we don't have to hang on to them dogmatically or preach them at others as if they were more TRUE or more "knowledge-able" than what others seem to know or experience. ie: be as the religious-minded, with their mouths a-babbling or their gums a preaching!

I wish you the same. As knowledge is of the MIND and hence, part of the duality, it has to be in MOTION. Knowledge is not "static", and/or is forever in a state of "flux" or change. So some call that the "illusion" as it does not last long, not because it is not relatively true for some lenght of time.

Time in physics is called the "measurement of Motion or change". But MOTION itself, is more REAL than anything which may be in MOTION inside of the SPACE we call the UNI-verse (uni=ONE). And SPACE itself is in expansive MOTION, not only the things inside of this uni-SPACE. So in physical reality SPACEMOTION is more REAL than the current scientific: spacetime.

Knowledge of the past (scriptures) is not more "true" than the transitory knowledge of today or of tomorrow. They are all transitory and do not last. Even the expansion of Space (from the religious BIG BANG (is that loud??) which is called "creation", (or falsely called the "beginning") may one day become the "coming together" of space through gravity of MASS, for an imminent "BIG CRUNCH" or a "new beginning", not an "END". But this knowledge can't be taught as FACT or DOGMA ... and yet, many religions and psedo-spiritual groups or gurus, calling themselves "scientific", do teach such speculative theology and/or cosmology as a FACT.

To not believe such ramblings is not to disbelieve everything.
To know that knowledge is transitory does not mean to know no-thing. It means to know that to argue or to presume one "right" about one's knowledge is a waste of time. Not only one's own knowledge but also the knowledge of others who sometime claim that their knowledge is DIVINE and is true for ETERNITY ...

Knowledge is not ETERNAL ... it is not even "infinite". But some knowledge does last for a short time.

That I know!! Now prove me wrong!! Or better still, prove yourself "right"!!

Don ...

4d-don | Tue, 03/22/2011 - 00:11
Gilana's picture

I know

I know ecstasy. I know that god is. I know that I can remain aware, even when my buttons are pushed. I know that I am not the mind. I know what "stuff" is made of and that it works together.

I can't tell you how things work, but I know that these things are true and eternal, in the midst of time and space, which is just a small part of eternity.

And, I know my guru is true.

Doesn't matter what anybody says, what appears to happen. Because I know it through my heart, instead of my head.

Gilana | Tue, 03/22/2011 - 00:40
4d-don's picture

Hi All For the Spiritual

Hi All

For the Spiritual seeker, SPIRIT being a REALITY, the word "god", a Gothic/Germanic word, for a superhuman being, often used in the plural ("gods") to include the many gods, heroes and emperors of pantheistic mythologies, is not an accurate or adequate word to signify or indicate the CREATIVE or the "divinity" which permeates ALL (the Creation) of the Universe (both the implicate and the explicate ... or the inside and outside realms ...the ana/kata ... the manifest/un-manifest ... the actuated/potential).

With Plotinus, Plato and Vivekananda, I do not use a noun for our ONE-ness. I now use the number "ONE" to express the DIVINE or the CREATIVE in ALL, created or manifest, as well as the potential.

If a word would describe a state that defines ONE-ness, it would in my opinion, begin from the sound of near-nothing, and transition into a soft vowel (open mouth sound) and never end. So the word would go back into either a soft vowel (open mouth sound) and/or into infinity (time) and Eternity (space) with a closed-mouth but continued sound (such as "m", or "n"). A soft consonant is acceptable at the end of the sound as it can go into infinity (Time)and Eternity (space), and thus, decrease in volume, but never become "NO-thing" or NO-sound. The sound of "Aummmm" or the "ONE" are such examples.

But the Word "G-o-D" begins with a hard "G" sound (which sound has a definite beginning and a definite end) and ends with a "D" which also has a definite beginning and a definite end. The word GoD is the enclosing of a vowel sound with a hard consonant, and the ending of sound with a "hard consonant". The word "god" begins and ends and is thus not ETERNAL or INFINITE. The hard "consonants" (beginning and ending words) are adequate to describe physical "things" which begin and end in space and time. But the CREATIVE or ONE (ONE-ness) does not begin and does not end and is thus ETERNAL ... If IT was only "infinite" it would begin and never end.

So the Gothic word "god" is not intellectually adequate or an accurate definition, description, for some of the properties of the CREATIVE or the ONE-ness of ALL across SPACE (eternal), and in MOTION (infinite, measured as TIME).

Since talking (MIND) is what we will do here, the definition of words is important to understanding our meaning and our intent ...

If we are to point to the multi-dimensional and eternal way, then lets us use words which point in ALL directions (scalar) to describe "eternal" states and spaces, and not simply "vectors", using one direction in preference to all other directions, and hence expressing the TEMPORAL (the illusion), or our being IN TIME ... the INFINITE or the Religious (as in: "in the beginning...") and not the ETERNAL (space) ... the SPIRITUAL!!

In Spirit, there is NO BEGINNING ... and NO END! No birth/death ... just Trans-formation from one state to another !!

Spirit does not grow or get "better". SPIRIT, (What some call "god"), or ONE simply IS ...

Latin (using memory):

E non principio, ex UNO pluria (From no beginning, from ONE, many)
E non principio, e pluribus UNUM (From no beginning, from many ONE)

Don ... ;-))

4d-don | Tue, 03/22/2011 - 17:34
Gilana's picture

What about your heart?

Knowledge is not eternal (witness: The earth is Flat.)

Knowing is eternal, it comes from the heart.

My heart knows that god Is. It doesn't understand about the hardness of the "g." Only the mind can understand that.

What does your heart know?

I am presuming from all that you have said is that your heart knows that spirit Is. Good. Spirit and god are synonyms.

Gilana | Tue, 03/22/2011 - 17:51
4d-don's picture

Hi all The heart is a pump

Hi all

The heart is a pump for blood ... The brain analyzes all the info from all the feedback systems, not just the heart and the blood. Then the brain, decides, and communicates back all its instructions back to all the systems, not just the blood system.

The heart, being a pump, makes a thump (noise... kinetic energy and creates a fairly large electromagnetic field) but that does not mean that the heart "thinks" any more than the kidney, liver, lungs etc... think.

If we relied on our superstitious past, we would also think that our intuition, which is claimed to be our "higer consciousness" or our "cosmic consciousness" (cosmic=galactic=universal) is in our "guts"... The proof? We (even in the distant past) always said: "I've got a gut feeling.". Or courage would then be in the spine because to "have back-bone" means to be brave. NOT!! ;-0

If knowledge or knowing is eternal, then MIND would also be "eternal" and the duality of the physical world would then not be created by MIND as MIND would then be REAL and could only create what it is: REALITY not "illusion" or temporality ... And we know that is not the case.

If Mind is REAL and ETERNAL, where then is the need for SPIRIT or spirituality. We should all be able to "think" our way into "bliss" but to achieve any state of "higher consciousness", we have to still (silence) our previous state of consciousness (the simple consciousness-(of animals), or the self consciousness of most humans) and receive as if by "grace" in the "un-conscious" receptive mind, the new "program" of a "higher consciousness" along with its "blessings". Higher or "cosmic consciousness" seems to be "evolutionary" and develops after self-consciousness, and for ALL (or most) who are not too "self-involved". Similarly, most humans are now "self-conscious" except for a few who still have more or less remnants of "simple consciousness" and some who have what appears to be "higher consciousness" (they will claim or display their alleged "miracles"). But we can and will all develop our consciousness individually, and at its proper time, even if we don't follow those who claim to have it first. We can simply BE and then Experience.

Knowledge is of MIND and as such is temporal and dual. The mind and it's analytical tool, the brain, can say "yes" or "no" to the same question and defend it, as it is like a computer, it can analyze data and make decisions and keep the body's "feed-back" systems operational. We can't say that the brain (nervous system with its neuropeptides) has any more morals or ethics than the heart(the pump with it's blood) or the lymphatic system with its hormones, enzymes, etc... or the spine.

It is the WHOLE body which is the "entity", and not one organ is the center for love or the mythic and invented soul. Not the brain and not the heart or the gut or the spine. Once we thought that the "breath" was the vital part of our being, and the word "sprit", comes from "breath". The "soul" is a religious invention so that their "sheep" may be controlled by their manufactured "fear and themptation" mechanism and thus receive the promised fear of "suffering for eternity" (hell) or the sigh (whew!!) bliss? of being rewarded for eternity (heaven). The "soul", allegedly being seated in the heart, is another myth we will leave behind as we become more "cosmically conscious" (galactic or Universally conscious). We are just becoming a "global" or planetary civilization ... we have a way to go yet.

Because the heart and the whole system creates an electro-magnetic field around the body, and has been claimed to relate to "love", or to be the REAL part of our "being", does not make it the organ which decides to love or not ... The brain also creates a very high freqency around the body also. It is still the brain which decides to love or not, as the feed-back from the heart, the guts, the nose, the eyes, and all the senses (all six of them), send their info to the brain for analysis and decision-making.

One does not know (either as knowing or knowledge) more in one's heart or in one's gut. One does not love more with the heart than with the "arms", the back-bone (work, defense, love-making, etc ...) ... Those are "sayings" of the past because we could "feel" some changes in those areas ... and we could not feel the BRAIN as the frequency was too high to hear. So we made up "stories". But the brain can sure control the oxygen needed to keep "thinking" (fight/flight), and close the supply (blood and oxygen) to some less important areas (legs, arms, ) if needed.

If one doesn't understand, what one's brain and mind tells one's body, then one can keep repeating the same limiting patterns, rituals or words: "god", and get what one creates by one's self ...until one either changes by one's self or through some intervention by society (friends, classmates, workplace), or some more professional help.

No Guru can fix that! Most gurus, as most religions simply propagate and profiteer from the myths.


4d-don | Tue, 03/22/2011 - 20:52
Gilana's picture

New Science -

New scientific research indicates that the heart reacts up to three seconds to stimuli before the brain registers it.

Gilana | Tue, 03/22/2011 - 21:13
4d-don's picture

"THEY" Died today!! Now what I (you) say is what THEY say!


Sounds like: "they say"... the "institute of "THEY". They say that Christ walked on water and that he rose from the dead, but that does not make it so. Over 5000 people say the sun dance in the sky at Fatima, Portugal in the early 1900's... but no astronomer say the sun do anything different than what it has always done.

I don't know if you heard: "THEY" died today!! Now, what you say, and what I say is what "they say".

The heart or any sensory apparatus in the body (the hand) can register an input from outside, and "then" send it to the brain as it will do all the time. It is a "feed-back" system ... information goes both ways ... If the heart develops a clogged artery, the pump will act up, and it is not the brain which will know it first ... but it will be the brain which will decide and call for help ... or for some the Brain will tell the arms, hands and legs to search for a solution.

For others, their brain will tell them to ask a priest or "pray" or ask the guru what to do. Pre-programming ... or brain-washing!

But for some to claim that THEY decide (with the brain) to put love in their heart, and that "love" (not simply a registration on a meter to be interpreted as "LOVE"), is actually in the heart, is a little far-fetched. I never found Christ in my heart either.

THEY used to tell us (at boarding school) to "put Christ in your heart" and promised us that he, (the REAL son of GOD), but really a guy who may have lived 2000 years ago in another country, will protect you and all the other people in the world. Enemies pray to the same Christ and still some die and some don't. But to attach it to Christ in the "heart"?? ... lol lol ;-))

Or THEY would say: "Pray for Peace and God will grant us PEACE"... And, 2000 years later, we are still warring ... We had better find a different way, get off our butts, off our knees and create peace rather than pray for it.

Or, "your guardian angel" or your "patron saint" will help and protect you if you put them (all) in your "heart" but that is not a FACT... we should question those as to develop a "higher consciousness" and not forever be dis-empowered to the point of forever seeking the input or guidance from others to solve our problems.

The heart of the religious person is like a junk pile. No wonder so many die of heart diseases. (stress, habits, etc...)... But they will PRAY, they claim.

If you find some science around the heart being something more than what a "cardiologist" says (a pump for blood and part of a feed-back system via the electromagnetic (neuronal) system of the brain) or what an "electrical" expert, has found in the heart, quote me (link) the research ...

Please no pseudo-science...


4d-don | Tue, 03/22/2011 - 22:02
leo's picture

The mind is terrified of an external force of the satguru

Of course there is a need for a living guru, like in any other course which is not intellectual and should not be intellectual.

The mind is terrified of a live external force, an external representation of the satguru. The internal representation of the satguru - the mind can control, mask and hash up, but an external one that does not adhere to it, that does not that impressed from its tricks? no no!

The mind's fear of an external live expression of the satguru is the same fear it has of meditation. And it will make sure to come up with all sorts of excuses and reasons why not. It is just fear, nothing more, be attentive, recognize this underlying fear and set out for the living guru if you are really honest with yourself and truly earnest to advance on the spiritual path.

leo | Sun, 03/27/2011 - 08:10
4d-don's picture

Fear tactics by the "intellectual terrorists"...

Hi all

If you decide (with your brain) to follow the path of "reason" and are not frightened by the pseudo-religious and the pseudo-spiritualists, who would attempt to frighten you and have you "go to hell" or worse, to be "RE-BORN" if you don't adhere to their "rituals", then you can BE a FREE man/woman and BE truly SPIRITUAL.

As the rest of the world is freeing itself from the "divine rights of their kings and dictators", (some Europeans began that path to FREEDOM in the 12th century), then you also can free yourselves from the "divine rights" of the self-appointed and self-titled so-called GURUS, GODMEN, or the spiritualist elite which are the self-called "chosen" or ILLUMINATED of our society ...

They are a remnant of our feudal past. A teacher and a guide is OK when you are a child, a student, and/or need someone to hold you by the hand, but MEDITATING and CONTEMPLATING can be done by anyone without the help of a self-appointed TRAFFIC COP, a proxy, a go-between, on one's "UNIQUE" path called: the road of LIFE.

One cannot take one path and then presume arrogantly that all should also take the same path .... That quickly becomes tyranny and is to be "overthrown" for FREEDOM and the joy of experiencing one's own PATH FREELY. Commune with your and OUR ONE-ness!

TELL the salesmen of religion and the pseudo-spiritualist to: Come to me "INSIDE" in SPIRIT, if you can, and we will commune there.

If they can't do that, while not being in your physical presence (them or their PRIESTS or their preceptors and proselytizers), then they are simply pulling a scam!! And most are (if not all).

Religion and spiritualism are profiteering from the gullibility and addiction to fantasies of SOME men, women and SOME children.

Since the advent of the internet, the religious/spiritualists, though still trying to get the children addicted to religion from birth, are having a harder time addicting the Masses with their "opiates". So are the GURUs coming out of INDIA. We, who use REASON, can now speak OPENLY and/or anonymously. We don't have to fear them who would slaughter us anymore. AND WE DON'T ...

No doubt the RELIGIOUS and the "spiritualists" will pray to (they claim) heal Nature, so we don't get any more Earthquakes and/or Tsunamis, etc... etc... as they seem to blame the (THEIR?) "wickedness" for any Natural event. It is not Nature which needs healing but psychotic MAN ... those who think that they can affect Nature,(sun, earth, cosmos, etc..) with prayers and rituals... NATURE is simply being NATURAL. Some have allegedly prayed for PEACE for 2000 years .... and??? They are not the "fast ones" ... One (the moral person) should MAKE peace happen, not pray for peace.

Time to wake up from our collective "DREAM"... and face REALITY! OUR ONE-ness!! There is no DEATH. There is nothing to be afraid of. The apparent evil in the world lurks in the heart of some MEN/WOMEN not in the receptacles which are fantasies and "spirits".

SPIRIT and SPIRITUALITY is a REALITY or REAL ... "spirits" and "spiritualism", are an invention, a fantasy and a scam or a MIS-interpretation of real energy fields. In some forms of Judaism these so-called "messengers from the center" are called: "perplexities". There is no SOUL, it is invented by some in our distant superstitious past to explain the seeming inequality and injustice of life ... BUT, we are all part of SPIRIT and thus are all ONE!!

We do not re-incarnate, we (parts of our being) are "re-cycled" as our native spirituality claims. That spirituality agrees with the conservation of energy/matter laws of physics.

BE ONE without a proxy !!


What is the difference between a NEUROTIC, a PSYCHOTIC and a PSYCHIATRIST?

The NEUROTIC builds "castles in Spain"
The PSYCHOTIC lives in them
The PSYCHIATRIST collects the rent.


4d-don | Sun, 03/27/2011 - 18:17
Gilana's picture


I notice that you concentrate on the issue of "chosen" vs "the rest of us."

Nobody else is talking about that. If you are please correct me. Everyone is a Buddha - True Gurus help you see that.

My guru says: its the same road - are you "less than" if you are at mile one rather than mile fifty?

Gilana | Sun, 03/27/2011 - 19:04
mula's picture

The guru is needed for abandoning addiction to reason

There is no spiritual path of reason. This is absurd. You need to abandon the instrument of reason, the mind, in order to truly start walking on the path. This is the difference between philosophy and spirituality, between religion and spirituality.

And for this distruction of the reason, you need an external guru, because we are so addicted to reason, which, if we dare to look at sincerely, we immediately see how baseless and absurd it is.

mula | Mon, 03/28/2011 - 08:42
Gilana's picture

Getting to it

Yes, I think you have "gotten the right of it."

There is no spiritual path of reason because _______ (insert your favorite name for the divine here) is not limited to reason. Blatant examples are everywhere (just look at nature's tantrums). And one of the mind's jobs is to rationalize them away, to make us think that we can understand why.

But we can't and never will understand "Why?" because we aren't constructed to.

1. All is connected
2. When the smallest is affected, all will feel this effect
3. the rest doesn't know what happened, it just feels an effect
4. this is happening billions of times a second
5. in order to have knowledge as to how things work, we have to be aware of the cause of all the effects
6. A human being is not capable of that.

Freedom, existence, truth, God (whichever name indicates the divine) is insistent and will find different and more obtrusive ways to make it's point. This is what divinity does, this is what the Guru does.

One of the ways I've found to identify my Mind is: it argues. It fights. It has the idea that something has to be done or else!! ..or else, what? I "say" I'm spiritual - don't I trust God? Or is it man I don't trust? And isn't God able to vanquish man, if it wants to? Is God stupider than me? Or am I not seeing the obvious?

Which (by the way) is NOT the obvious that my mind has always (for years and years sometimes) told me it is...the answer that I am so afraid of is NOT the answer. It isn't the answer by a simple proof: Accepting it, doesn't change anything. The proof of the real answer is: It changes things, sometimes everything.

Gilana | Mon, 03/28/2011 - 15:41
4d-don's picture

Hi all... Now there is a

Hi all...

Now there is a "gem"... Some don't want to use REASON to understand and overcome their addiction to "emotions", and/or to the demands of the emotional body, but they would suspend their "god-given" REASON in the hope or "faith", that someone else will overcome their emotions as well as their REASON for them.

Those who make a living convincing others that they are "lost", and then gathering the lost around them, will find the lost (or create them) everywhere.

Of course one must surrender to them, so one can be "FOUND", they claim. But why not simply surrender your emotions to your reason? You can't, right? Why? You must have a "REASON"! Why not simply surrender the REASON-ing of your "self-consciousness" to your higher "cosmic consciousness" and become self-enlightened like so many GURUS? ... or GODMEN? You can't? Why? You will not become any more enlightened by surrendering to another PERSON and his REASON, any more than to ONE directly! As Vivekananda would say... to focus on the "go-between" will get you the "go-between", and will not lead to the "Ultimate", ... what I call ONE!! (like Vivekananda, Plotinus, Plato, etc..)

That knowledge pre-dates the Raja Yoga of Patanjali and originates in Egypt ... but it is SPIRITUALITY, not religion or materialist Spiritualism with 'spirits", beings of light, or other fantasies of those materialists who want more materialism, or the spiritualists who want more POWER from their spiritualism ...It is not SPIRITUALITY which would mean relating to SPIRIT as a REALITY, not to a PERSON, made of MATTER, not the cult of a PERSON, but the communion with ONE and ALL...

No wars in Indian history I guess? lol lol They are all SPIRITUAL ! And as we look at the countries around India, as with those around China (Tibet), we see the "revolutions" (Fiji) of those who are being over-ridden by the "diaspora" of the SPIRITUAL-ists who can't control their own lust for sex and breeding, thus causing "strife", not PEACE all around them. That is not fantasy ... but fact.

Talk is cheap... surrender your reason and you will simply join the opiate-driven MASSES, claiming to be spiritual as they horde material "territory" in other's countries, and the material trappings of power. Not very SPIRITUAL these "materialists"!!

Don ...

4d-don | Mon, 03/28/2011 - 16:57
Gilana's picture

For the Last Time

I won't use REASON to overcome my emotions because the Body/Mind works in conjunction. If anything can be said, I use LOVE to change that which Body/Mind wants to maintain.

Has the overwhelming love of anything greater ever caused you to dismiss your fears and just change? Love the flame so deeply, so completely so overwhelmingly that even though your mind screams, "It will burn you!" you don't care? If you ever did, you know the nobility, the divinity of that matter the consequences (Mind/Reason generated consequences that can change fifteen different ways with fifteen difference interpretations.)

I don't have the faintest idea of what you are talking about when you talk about somebody else overcomes my emotions and reason. The only way anyone could "OVERCOME" me is if I agree that they should, allow them to do it and create the structure in the world and in my mind for them to be accommodated.

Then it still doesn't have anything to do with what they do --

My condition is my responsibility ALL THE TIME. Whatever I am, whoever I let tell me what to's still all my own responsibility. I'm never unfree, although I can pretend to be.

Nobody has ever told me I am lost, I don't believe I am nor have I ever felt "lost." So I've never been "gathered." I heard my Guru speak in words and in his silence and I demanded to be admitted, begged to be included. I have never regretted that decision once. (Although its so hard on my ego, I'm tempted to make believe once in while.)

As far as the "opiate-driven MASSESS,"

I have never taken opium. Have you?

Gilana | Mon, 03/28/2011 - 17:50
4d-don's picture

Hi all... Yes, I have tried

Hi all...

Yes, I have tried many religious opiates in my life ... But I have now kicked the habit and I now relate to SPIRIT directly without a "dealer" sucking my time energy and/or my power. And of course, as many who have "hit the wall", I now try to warn others about the "impending" wall or the precipice which is just around the corner, but is hidden from the view of the "addict", by his/her dealer and his/her sub-contractors (acolytes).

I have been addicted to religion and religious "opiates", and have even tried a few so-called "enlightened" godmen (no godwomen! ... is there such a "monster"?) ...and their New Age "drugs" as they target women. One guru I went to even said: "Women can't be Masters as they are not capable of the destruction needed for the job of Master". When I asked him: "What destruction?" He replied: "On a "cosmic scale"!!" So his job was to destroy a part of the "cosmos"?? ;-)) SPIRITUALITY ?? or Apocalyptic delusions?

But I am now "clean" and can relate to ONE directly. That really irks the addicts, the disciples of those who still are themselves also addicted to a "following" as they spend their lives searching for (or addicted to) followers to adulate and adore them ... rather than relating to SPIRIT and simply "BEING" ... I am one who went inside many times, and who got away and is now SPEAKING OUT!

When I was addicted, I also thought that I was doing it "willingly" and that I was "blessed" or "chosen" or "special" (as some gurus will tell some which they "target" but who are "difficult" cases). I have been assured of "heaven" or the current variation by many "faith systems" as I fullfilled all their "rituals" and obeyed all their "commandements"...

But NO MORE!! I now commune with ONE (Creative or Creator) or with ALL (Creation) Directly ... I don't follow MEN anymore!! But I let others be "addicted" if they want to ... These are the "seasons of changes", the Age of Transformation. We will all trans-form!! But more because of the sun and its EM radiation and our specie's evolution than by the rituals of religion or New Age spiritualism.

I don't have to do anything to commune with ONE I just have to BE ... How about you? What are your rituals? What is your "kit" made of?


4d-don | Mon, 03/28/2011 - 18:25
Gilana's picture

I meditate on love for ten

I meditate on love for ten minutes when I wake up and ten minutes before I go to sleep.

I'm responsible for my own thoughts, actions, emotions, and life. I'm supposed to keep my financial life clean and debt free. I'm supposed to show up to Darshans and Satsangs, most of the time. I'm supposed to participate and be sincere. Growing maturity (negation of suffering and indulgence in body/mind), intelligence (negation of dependence on others and delusion in general) and ability to love (innocent expression of love and honesty) are expected and encouraged. I'm required to use my own resources, my own love, my own desire for truth to motivate me and to understand truth - not to rely on consolation from my guru (cause I guarantee he won't give it) or anyone else.

Last time I asked my Guru if it was okay to lead a silent meditation for a group who asked me to, he said, "If you want to do it, do it. If you don't want to do it, don't do it."

I'm required to consider what is offered, to discard it and sometimes even call it if it's wrong, but to remove what needs to be removed, so that I can move forward.

For instance, I am beginning to see how my childhood trauma is affecting my daily interaction - how I control the interaction so that it never goes "there." I am not told what to do with that information (how to act or think or feel differently. That would piss me off.)

It's a very simple process:
1. Life/guru will present something.
2. Usually its very obscure or something I would normally dismiss or fight with.
3. I am expected to wait until I see it clearly. Not to react, but to wait, because inevitably, it will (like a camera focus') get clearer. This is where the guru comes in -- if I need to help getting clear, he helps.

4. Once I'm clear on it, I am then expected to watch it happen, to gather data, if you will. It's not a "mental" process, it's an "oh, shit." process.

It's just like when you finally realize that cheating on a test is wrong, not because you are not supposed to, but because it doesn't help you, it puts you in a compromised position.

It's, "Oh. I get it. I don't get to have the knowledge that way, and it's disrespectful of my own dignity and intelligence. Okay, I won't do that again. Now, what the heck do I do next?"

5. The understanding in step four and the desire for the correction (some call it desire for wholeness) make me love the correction more than the condition - and I jump to the next rock, without thinking about what could happen. "I will stop cheating, I will study instead."

Sometimes, this is enough...things change. Sometimes I have to do "stuff" (in this example study) but then my condition changes.

That's it.

Gilana | Mon, 03/28/2011 - 19:33
4d-don's picture

The "cross-roads"...

Hi all..

What can I say? Good for you! ;-))

You are working on your "self" and your issues.

Keep on keeping on!

I must be a lot older, or just lucky. I remember doing that work a long time ago, before my SPIRIT journey!

See you at the next cross-road!

Don ...

4d-don | Mon, 03/28/2011 - 21:57
Gilana's picture

I know what you say

Your arrogance is amazing and your judgement hurtful. You asked about my practice, so I spent an hour I didn't have on the response.

This work certainly is not "working on your self and issues"...only on placing the desire of the separate self on the second hand tier of attention.

I have met people who have done this work. They have a tendency toward understanding and compassion - rather than a distinct preference for fear and separation (not to mention self-congratulation and argument.) I have trouble believing you have ever even started this work, but I might be wrong. Who knows?

This concludes my experiment. Thanks. Good bye.

Gilana | Mon, 03/28/2011 - 23:31
4d-don's picture

The New Age!

Hi all...

I'm Acadian. In the USA we are called "cajuns". We have a saying:

You gotta laugh b'cause it's not funny! ;-))

It's easy to laugh when things are funny or going one's way ... but it's when things are not funny (most of the time in some cases), that one has to laugh ...

And there are no capitals to become indignant about (except at their accepted societal places).

When one points and calls names at others, who don't agree with one, then one begins a motion which will return to one. So be ready for "arrogant" and the other names (titles) you want to try and attach to my "SPIRIT", or call "me" (not "I"). And I say: "sticks and stones may break my bones, but names will never hurt me..."

See you at the next "cross-road" ... when you've found the "LOVE" and understanding you talk about.

Happy trails ...

I am here doing what I do, because I like what I do! It's time for the NEW AGE to become REALITY !! That means SPIRIT will BE Manifest in (or as) our "cosmic consciousness" FREE and having FUN!

Our freedom around words and specially words arranged as JOKES, art, therapy have no limits!! The religious with their religions, will just have to learn to laugh at themselves or go home and sulk ... or do the work and change.

There will be no "blasphemy" laws in the NEW ORDER!

Don ...

4d-don | Tue, 03/29/2011 - 04:01
4d-don's picture

Hi Mula (or Mullah?) You

Hi Mula (or Mullah?)

You said above:

"There is no spiritual path of reason. This is absurd. You need to abandon the instrument of reason, the mind, in order to truly start walking on the path. This is the difference between philosophy and spirituality, between religion and spirituality."

Here is what those who follow the Raja Yoga of Patanjali say:


Raja Yoga is concerned principally with the cultivation of the mind"

or here at the "Institute of Raja Yoga":

"The eight steps of Yoga are: moral principles and -ideals, physical postures, energy control, detachment, concentration, meditation and contemplation."

Try and think up this system and then try and meditate or contemplate without using the "brain" and/or the MIND.

Most spiritual paths which were "invented" have used the MIND to think the path into existence, and then to promote and proselytize that path. So there is a Yoga or a Path of the MIND, it is called Raja Yoga ... not the bastardized Raja Yoga of Sahaj Marg(tm) which starts at step #7 of Patanjali's Raja Yoga (Meditation) and is thus the Cult of a Person or SPIRITUALISM (not "SPIRITUALITY") ... but the REAL Raja Yoga of the MIND, as Raja Yoga is called by many!

Read a little more before you call things "absurd" ... You show your ignorance and your arrogance. With those character flaws, you could make a good autocratic "religious adherent". But you too can change and/or trans-form, and learn to control and use the Brain and the MIND, not demonize it as the religious try and do. But the religious and spiritual leaders do use their MIND.

P.S. The word: "adherent" comes from "adhesive": GLUE, STICK as in, STUCK to Something.


4d-don | Tue, 03/29/2011 - 16:43
4d-don's picture

Guru is a servant not a Master...

Hi all...

In the Catholic religion (Christianity) on Holy Thursday (the thursday before Good Friday, Holy Saturday and Easter (resurection day) there is a ceremony where the priest, imitating the actions of Jesus, the Christ (Messiah?), washes the feet of the attending clerics as a gesture of humility and service ...

If any Guru wants to wash my feet and not have me kiss his feet, as if he was my Master and I his servant, then that Guru is at least a servant in his mind, and not a Master, as all GURUS should be.

The ONE and true guru is "inside" ... I, emulating Plotinus, Plato and Swami Vivekananda, call IT "ONE" (the number) or our ONE-ness, our UNITY. All who are not inside, but who are outside to be experienced with our physical senses, can be our servants and our guides to assist us in our realization of our ONE-ness if they have skills to make them good servants and good guides ... NONE are our Masters to be served by all, as if by "divine rights".

Elitism and the "chosen" on the path to ONE-ness, is a necessary myth of the past, but a myth which will not linger into the future!! We will realize that we are all special and that we are all "chosen" and that we are all "illumined" in our some form or other.

We all have talents.

Don ...

4d-don | Sun, 04/17/2011 - 00:16
musafir's picture

The One

Hi Don,
I only wish to comment here because you have brought up Vivekananda's fine usage of One in this context.

For whatever reason, I have always loved "The One" as a name for God, as in the Sufi Order International invocation, "Toward the One, the perfection of love, harmony and beauty..." or even the Science Fiction TV series from a few years back, Babylon 5, which had an interesting recurring quote from the ending of the first season on through the next season or two, that quote being "We live for the One, we die for the One".

Anyway, I do feel that "We live for the One, we die for the One" and that the whole movement of our lives should be "Toward The One", so anyway, thanks for giving me the opportunity to share that.

To move to one of the general thrusts of your post, you wrote: "If any Guru wants to wash my feet and not have me kiss his feet, as if he was my Master and I his servant, then that Guru is at least a servant in his mind, and not a Master, as all GURUS should be".

There's a certain validity there, I would say, but Jesus did point out that he who wanted to be the master must first be the servant of all. So I'm not sure how those two statements would jive for you. There seems to be a paradox here, and I'm quite comfortable with paradox myself, but I would be interested in your comments on this.

musafir | Tue, 05/31/2011 - 21:25
4d-don's picture

B-4 B-3 B-2 ... Before Be Two, Be ONE

Hi Musafir...

Nice comment.

I agree with your comments and with Jesus, the Nazarene carpenter from a few millenia in our past, and an alleged Saviour or "Messiah", according to some. While living, he was called "Rabbi" by his followers, and not "Master" or Lord, King, or Emperor, or any other "aristocratic" pyramidal names.

Paradoxes are at the end of MIND (reason), and are useful in our transcendence from MIND to higher realms(SPIRIT?). I agree with you that this appears to be a paradox, but it is a paradox which is even used in the military, business, etc...: To be a good leader (general), one must be a good follower (soldier).

The role of a GURU (teacher) should be to SERVE, not to lead or preach at or to. To lift up by example, not to "point at", the goal and stimulate others into doing or "achieving". We don't need "preachers", (or even "DO-ers"). But we do like "BE-INGS" or BE-ers. Not those who claim they (or you) will "become" ... but those who ARE already BEING servants of ONE, ONE-ness and/or ALL.

Our history(past) is ONE...
Our destiny (future) is ONE...
Our Present must also be ONE.

Even our science is at that evolutionary stage of our collective journey. The Grand Unified Theory (GUT) and/or the "Theory of Everything" (TOE), are just around the corner. It is now time for our RELIGIONS to stop dividing the PEOPLE with sectarianism ... even to VIOLENCE AND TO WAR.

Or in latin:
In non principia, ex Uno pluria
In non principia, e pluribus Unuum.

With no Beginning, From ONE, many.
With no Beginning, From many, ONE.

So if we are to BE "Masters" of, and responsible for our lives (history and destiny), our so-called Masters must BE our servants, and not accumulators of the Material (wealth), which should be left for those who have little or nothing at all. There can only be one Master in one's life, and it is not "Exterior", but INTERIOR.

And I would say that to our "public" servants also. In our Representative Democracy, our representatives (PUBLIC servants) seem to think that they are the "LEADERS", but a democracy means that the PEOPLE are the Masters of the HOUSE ... not the servants. Soon we will vote on the ISSUES, with People's Intitiatives in a DIRECT DEMOCRACY.

So, much more for SPIRITUALITY. A GURU (teacher) should teach by example, by "SHOWING". If a GURU can't be a servant of ONE and/or ALL, how can his disciples be expected to BE an example to one or to all (the masses). If a GURU thinks himself to be the Master of his disciples' life and death, then that Master has an EGO and/or is not very "natural". One should not follow an "egotist" on a path which claims to get rid of Ego and empower SPIRIT by BEING Spiritual or "in the SPIRIT"... not into "spirits" as with mediums. I know of such fantasy, material and power-addicted so-called Masters, who call homosexuals "un-natural". A flawed theology leads to flawed philosophy and to flawed psychology and vice-versa.

Thanks to the information revolution, we have all the "IN-FORMATION" we need ... NOW IS THE TIME TO BE SPIRITUAL! Or to FORM ... not to do, to achieve or to become (later).

Gurus who spend most their life and their MOTIONS (actions) as measured by TIME, gathering material (temples, ashrams, land, etc..) and having (birthday) "parties", and doing the tasks of involvement in the "material", are not really BEING spiritual or good servants of the PEOPLE ... That material should be left for the sake and service of the POOR. If all a GURU's time is spent in the material realm, then who is BEING SPIRITUAL? Matter will take up one's ENERGY AND TIME also if we let it. Matter and "possessions", even of disciples (numbers) are addictive also. How many disciples justify their belonging to a "religion" by using the "numbers" of new disciples who were recently "enticed" and who are now DOING the evangelical "hunt for more numbers" (converts)?

Sell all, as Jesus, the Nazarene would say, and give it to the poor and come and follow me.

Most religious adepts seem to think that as soon as all are in "our" RELIGION, or our "gang", the world will be saved!!! All without ever BEING SPIRIT but always remaining as MIND, and MATTER.

I don't think so. We (SOME) are in SPIRIT and will not BECOME SAVED! ... SPIRIT, is already SAVED and is already ONE !!


4d-don | Tue, 07/05/2011 - 18:50
Gilana's picture

Why is a living guru necessary?

Because s/he's real.

Gilana | Sat, 07/09/2011 - 17:09
musafir's picture


Hi Gilana,

A living guru is necessary because s/he's real.

I have no argument with that comment, but I really wish you'd expand on it a bit more. I really felt like you had more you wanted to say, and if so, I'd really like to hear it.

musafir | Sat, 07/09/2011 - 20:39
4d-don's picture

ALL is in ONE!

Hi Musafir:

From Sci-fi quote above (drama):

"We live for the One, we die for the One".

From Spirit (REALITY):

We live in ONE, and in ONE, there is no death.


4d-don | Sun, 07/10/2011 - 17:11
musafir's picture

To live and be in One!

I like that. Death is a grand illusion. I mean it is, after all, a reality as far as the body goes. As pointed out in "Way Of The Peaceful Warrior", death is just one of the body's changes, a bit more radical than puberty, but nothing to be particularly worried about."

Now as far as the soul goes, you're definitely right, there is no death.

musafir | Thu, 07/14/2011 - 20:07
4d-don's picture

SPIRIT is a reality of ONEness-soul is an invention of religion

Hi Musafir,

Many human carbon-based entities are conscious that they are SPIRIT, MIND, MATTER. That is our worldly REALITY. That is part of the "sapiens" of some "homo sapiens'" existence.

Some humanists call SPIRIT, our consciousness. That is possible if the consciousness in question has evolved to an awareness of the ONE-ness of ALL. That could be called a Cosmic or UNIVERSAL consciousness, and not simply the more abstract self-consciousness (i.e. most humans are aware that they are aware of having a leg) which most humans living now have evolved into, from the more simple consciousness of animals. (i.e. dog is aware it has a leg).

Universal consciousness is the next evolutionary step.

Spirit is ONE and ETERNAL. MIND and Body are dual, hence part of the temporal or infinite illusion. Mind and Matter are still REAL in their NOW-ness, but having a limited existence before transforming so as to continue (continuum) or to last. (have duration).

When LIFE appears to die, it is truly the process of trans-fomation which takes place, as the elements which make the body of the conscious entity are simply trans-formed and are not destroyed ... do not die. The Carbon of organic LIFE continues as carbon or its compounds, hydrogen continues to be hydrogen, water continues as water, energy continues as heat or light, etc ... The processes of fusion and fission of elements go one throughout infinity. Infinity is of MOTION (or TIME) and can be expressed as: x=x+1 or x=x-1... to infinity.

SPIRIT is of SPACE, and is ONE and ETERNAL.

Soul was invented by religion so that SPIRIT will appear to be "individualized" and hence reap the rewards or suffer the damnation of religious MYTHS for eternity. And for the entity to reap these mythic "rewards and punishments" for eternity, is why a soul is necessary to RELIGION. IF there is no hell or heaven, they we don't need a soul... we are simply ONE or SPIRIt. Religions invent an individual "soul" to live on after death, a death which to them is real and is part of their belief. Some religions even invent a "resurection" of the body, and even a "rapture" of the body. It is part of the religious myths and modus operandi: Fear and Temptation.

SPIRIT does not DIE ... It is not dual or divided. IT IS ONE.
The drops of water which join the ocean do not divide the ocean, but ALL are ONE ocean, NOW.

Most religions are really divisive, and are really not SPIRITUALITY but are more accurately: SPIRITUALISM or SPIRITISM.

Google these words and see the differences ...

The proton which resides in the nucleus of all atoms, has a half-life of 10^36 years (one with 36 zeros) and will not be trans-formed for a long, long time ... And then it may continue as a transformation of the original proton, into other sub-atomic particle(s).


4d-don | Fri, 07/15/2011 - 00:25
musafir's picture

Soul vs. Spirit

I guess it comes down to what tradition you come from as to what word you wish to use, soul or spirit or something else even. I've actually always preferred the Vedic term "Atman" since it doesn't seem to have all the baggage attached to it that the words soul or spirit do.

musafir | Sat, 07/16/2011 - 20:21
Gilana's picture

Knowledge is dead

All you can really know is what is happening right now--what your state is and how it moves within the all. That's where a live guru comes in. S/He is living at a more expanded state that ninety-nine percent of the world - that energy interacts with yours. All energy carries it's own vibe. A true guru's energy is more refined, freer of ego complication, more aligned with truth.

Many people are afraid to admit this, they feel it makes them "less" somehow. But is green "less" than "white" light? No, it's just pulsing at a different vibration. But when you mix dark green with white light you get a lighter shade of green. The green learns the feeling of the lighter color and begins to sympathetically vibrate with the white.

When you begin to vibrate differently, different things become apparent to you. That's true knowing.

Can the green light make itself into white light? I don't know. Is it harder? probably.

Gilana | Fri, 07/15/2011 - 06:39
4d-don's picture

Some are searching for the White Light...

Hi Gilana...

A poem ... (30 years ago)

One-ness and Duality...

We are standing two divided
And there's only ONE above.
We're just walking contradictions
Searching for a little love.
Ever standing at the threshold,
Trying to get inside the door.
Never running for the dollar,
Still we're tired of being poor.

Some are searching for the White Light
Gotta get there while you can.
Some are running from illusions,
Come and catch me if you can.
Some are standing quite contented,
And they're drawn into the flame
Some are searching for Perfection,
And some just love to play the game.

Some are searchers, some are finders
Bend the knee and smell the rose.
Some are standing on the side-lines,
Now and then, I'm one of those.
Some just ponder, over yonder,
Marching past the fools' parade
Like a template for a Crystal,
Life's a moment ready-made.

Why stop at the "green" people?
We can learn from ALL and we can inter-act with the carriers of all the colours, to created the White Light.

Hence all are our GURUS ... or no one is SPECIAL and/or our special guru. If ALL are our gurus, then ONE is our GURU ... as ONE is ALL ... and ALL is ONE.

As you can tell from the above poem, I also relate to "crystals" and ALL of the UNIVERSE as alive. All has different levels of "consciousness" or awareness...

I will relate to all, learn from all and share experiences with all.

I have little knowledge which is transitory, temporal and/or fleeting.


4d-don | Fri, 07/15/2011 - 18:37