Guru V/s God

vsrinivasan1879's picture

Average: 4.5 (10 votes)

A neophyte in the field of spirituality encounters the problem as to who is great. God or Guru. A person who has taken first step in the field of spirituality knows very well that Guru is great. What can God do. He can give you Darshan, appear before you and grant boon for fulfilling some of your mundane desires. Nothing more. But, the Guru takes your hand and helps you to cross over the ocean of Samsara, this world as well as all the three worlds. He takes you to a state where you are beyond all the desires. He makes you a God. Any doubt? Catch hold of the feet of Guru and realise it.

nathan's picture

It's not god, it's you

"He can give you Darshan, appear before you and grant boon for fulfilling some of your mundane desires."

God cannot even do that, or more accurately - will not do that. This is also done by a some sort of a manifestation call it in whatever name you like - shiva, satguru, guru. It is actually not other than you yourself creating reality in the broader metaphysical sense.

nathan | Wed, 08/26/2009 - 06:46
Phroggy's picture

Dear neophyte Again we point

Dear neophyte
Again we point to the perceived deficiencies of others while relating our misunderstandings. Is this a cultural anomally?

The one through whom Self realization has occurred, and I won't call him guru since even that term has been rendered useless by ignorance, won't play your foolish games with you of God vs guru and greatness, and he knows neither God nor guru can grant you anything or lead you anywhere that you are not already, or already destined to realize without his help. He knows there is nothing to be done, and that mind states and shaktipat are not Truth, that you can never become a God, and that you are ignorance itself hopelessly trapped in your own delusion.

The 'guru' would do you the greatest service from the Love that he knows himSelf to be, to destroy your notion of yourself; to obliterate it without mercy, but for the Love of Self, for Divine Freedom itself. If he cannot do this, if you are not ready to die, he should send you away and tell you to come back when you are ready, when you have emptied yourself of all this self delusion and childish nonsense.

If you meet such a one, then you may call him guru, and if you wish you may bow at his feet, for soon the one who bows will be no more.

Honor only Truth. Kill the Buddha! Enough child's play!

Phroggy | Wed, 08/26/2009 - 20:31
madan_gautam's picture

Kill the Buddha!

>>>>> Kill the Buddha!
Yes kill the Buddha,if he comes in the path of your truth,but not before that.
Buddha had said that if even I come in between you and your truth,then kill me/leave me.
But this statement is for the person who is at the last step where even Guru can become hindrance for a seeker in his truth.
But before that stage of maturity one need a Buddha.
A true Guru leave a disciple free when He see the time of maturity of seeker,like birds as when birds see that their baby are now mature enough to take care of themselves then they depart them to their own journey.

madan_gautam | Thu, 08/27/2009 - 14:16
madan_gautam's picture

shaktipat are not Truth.....

>>>shaktipat are not Truth.
Dear Phrogy,
Have you gone through Shaktipat?
Have you researched on Shaktipat?
I want your genuine answer.
If not,then how can you say so?
Just to justify your stand,does not mean the falseness of other things.
Honor only Truth.
Be Truthful to yourself also, not in ignorance but in awareness.

madan_gautam | Thu, 08/27/2009 - 14:35
Phroggy's picture

You believe that any answer

You believe that any answer not based on some experience cannot be useful. This is, itself, our fundamental disagreement. You believe that Truth is an experience and yet all experiences come and go. Truth does not come and go. You believe that if it is experienced then it is True, but you pick and choose which experiences are true for you and which are not.

I would like to think most here are mature enough to realize that they have had many experiences that were not true, believed and felt deeply many illusory things. I would point to the illusion of personhood but apparently most here don't yet see this as an illusory experience.

My lady and I visit a nearby park evey day and we immerse ourselves in talk of Truth and open ourselves to what you may call Grace. It's beneficial for both of us and such clarity can come that it often brings us to tears. A depth comes, and words come, and all listen. I will point, and because of her deep love and trust in me, she will look and she will see. Sometimes we will embrace and her body shakes uncontrollably or she will feel a deep peace in that embrace.

I am not a guru, and I am not conferring Shaktipat on my desciple. She sees what she is ready to see, and opens to whatever she has the courage to allow to flow through her. The 'student' is ready and so the 'teacher' appears, but don't be deluded into thinking the teacher is the cause of anything.

If you need a story to explain why you are open to the Grace of God, then a story may unfold of guru and shaktipat. If you need a story of drama and mystery surrounding the Awakening to Truth, then the story of Kundalini and mystical transmission of powers may happen. If you believe that Enlightenement is an experience, then a story of Samadhi may unfold for you. all of it will come, and it will go.

All of this is the Grace of God and points you to your unbounded nature, but these fireworks are not the silent, still ground of your being, which is not meant to entertain you but to set you free from yourself; the one being entertained.

Phroggy | Thu, 08/27/2009 - 18:36
madan_gautam's picture

Nothing can be done

Nothing can be done by others to a blind man who says that whole world is blind like him.

madan_gautam | Fri, 08/28/2009 - 02:10
divine intervention's picture

You don't have a choice

Of course even firsthand direct experience may be sometimes deceiving but you don't have a better tool or something that comes near in terms of validation. It's like saying taste can be deceiving so I start evaluating whether anything I eat is tasty or not by what someone tells me and not according to my taste sensors. It's like expecting to be cured by hearing the explanation of a doctor about a certain pill instead of taking it, it's like trying to judge how wonderful a cake is by inspecting the recipe instead of cooking and tasting it.

All other tools except of experience, by definition, are indirect, are hearsay, are models, are of course completely baseless from the perspective of the subject who didn't experience, a whim, a system of remote approximation like logic .

One who is responsible will exercise a special restraint not to advocate or preach about things he/she never validated personally in direct experience. It is one thing to believe in something and be willing to bear the consequences and another thing to try to convince others in a confident tone in order to convince yourself and in that way to cause possible damage to them.

I advise you to read again the excellent piece in but this time from an open stand and not from a perspective of defending your opinion.

divine intervention | Fri, 08/28/2009 - 08:05
Phroggy's picture

I think we've had this

I think we've had this conversation before. As with Madan, you BELIEVE that since belief is unreliable, that there is no better tool than experience, and yet you must admit that experience is also unreliable.

If there is no better way of knowing Truth, how do you suppose those who KNOW Truth know what they know? They did not experience it, not in the way you think they did. Apparently, what you believe is not true. The teachers have talked to you about direct perception, apperception, intuition, realization, knowingness and these do not refer to experinces and yet you dismiss them because you don't 'experience' them. They tell you that Truth is self evident, and so it is clearly superior to the best tool you have found so far. Experiences are not at all self evident and are often found to be false. One even returns from Samadhi with a memory of an experience. How can this be True?

I don't hold any beliefs to be ultimately True. I have no use for belief or opinions as I have no use for experiences, all of which arise from mind's imagination and delusion.

At least consider the possibility that there is another 'tool'; the most important tool you'll ever find.

Phroggy | Fri, 08/28/2009 - 19:17
nelo's picture

Religious secularity

Take it easy madan, of course he didn't. He never talks out of responsible verification but out of his own theoretical view of reality. His mind blocks him from being bothered by facts, experiences and details. No true dialogue is possible in such a case and no mutual growing and developing.

nelo | Sun, 08/30/2009 - 08:16
Phroggy's picture

"Take it easy madan, of

"Take it easy madan, of course he didn't. He never talks out of responsible verification"

True, I talk from direct perception, something nobody here seems to understand. What in the world is "responsible verification"? You mean studdying texts and concepts and doing techniques? Don't you see how totally beside the point all of that is? How many years, decades have you been doing that and how long can you pretend it has gotten you somewhere? Where has it led you but full circle back to your own mind, your own beliefs, your own imaginary individual reality of struggle and suffering?

When you let go of everything you THINK you know, what do you actually know? And if you don't know anything, from whence cometh all the arrogant knowingness?

Phroggy | Sun, 08/30/2009 - 18:51
mayasurfer's picture

Hi Phroggy, I'm inspired by

Hi Phroggy, I'm inspired by your patience and tolerance in trying and trying and trying, again and again, to make people understand. You don't seem to get frustrated or angry, you just give people the Truth, again and again. It doesn't matter if people get it or not. Eventually they will. The Truth is simply too simple. You can't "get it" as long as you are stuck in the prison of your belief systems. Any belief, any concept, blinds you and you can't see what's in front of you. So thank you Phroggy, you inspire and remind me to be more tolerant and patient myself and to see the "others" as myself. Not as a concept but in clarity, right Here and Now.

mayasurfer | Sun, 08/30/2009 - 21:48
Phroggy's picture

Thank you Maya

It's really amazing to notice intelligent, sincere folks doing their best and still seeing giraffes everywhere they look. It's no wonder it's so hard to be fully conscious in this world. The truth, on any level, never makes a move to hide, and doesn't need to. I guess I'm fascinated by the miracle of our own self delusion. Maybe part of me is looking for the magic bullet but I really know there isn't one.

Phroggy | Mon, 08/31/2009 - 01:55
kaput's picture

It's not truth but atheist dogmatism

As a bystander I must say that I do not share your inspiration. I think he is just playing dogmatic and completely blocked in a stand most of us, confused westerner seekers, been in once. I have seen more than one that were stuck in that point. It is not truth but concealed atheism mixed with wrong logic.

Truth is a completely different thing.

kaput | Mon, 08/31/2009 - 08:10
Phroggy's picture

I seem to have a desire to

I seem to have a desire to understand your perspective, as well as that of others here. Dogmatic, illogical atheism just barely registers on my radar as something anyone could be much less me. The difficulty seems to be that I'm not considered worth the effort, and so no discussion actually happens, just condescending advice and dismissals. In any event, I'm open to it if anyone can stand my bad smell.

Phroggy | Mon, 08/31/2009 - 20:45
dhorai's picture

On guru!

my hand speaks in tune to the mantra....
Guru brahma guru vishnu guru devo mahesvarah guruh saksaath parabrahmah tasmai sri guruve namaha:"

the VEL stands over every head with four stages of this is another big story i can share later...


so god is the higher step but in vaisnava smpradaya without a teacher u cannot realise god well is stressed...but from mahabharata all great teachers were supporting the gaurava army while god krishna choose pandava that too arjuna for victory....

so it remains with context of particular person and environment even....

the same dronacharya made arjuna number one should not be forgotten..and how pandavas asked for blessings to teachers and bheeshma pita maha before war....

The new Mahabharat war" would be intresting series of articles....and enlighteining even...

Guru can take u to god but god alone can liberate you or give moksha...when guru and god are one u r blessed indeed...

SATVA tend towards light" this riddle answers everthing.

with guruship and godship

dhorai | Sun, 08/30/2009 - 00:36
nelo's picture

I wonder for some time

I don't understand this and find it impossible to follow and can't figure out how this messy collection of words relates to the subject. I would like to ask discretely especially Indian users who are proficient in the names and paths mentioned: does it have any essence and is worth deciphering at all or is it indeed a hallucinated and meaningless arbitrary collection of sentences.

nelo | Sun, 08/30/2009 - 08:05
Nathyogi's picture

Re: Guru V/s God

I fully agree with you.
Guru > God.

Nathyogi | Wed, 09/03/2014 - 06:25