A challenge to anyone who thinks the world will end in 2012.

miller44's picture

Average: 2.3 (16 votes)

Don't get fired up Ya'll; I mean this more in good humour than anything. My challenge is not intellectual, rather it is this:

If you are truly convinced that the world will end in Dec 2012, then when summer 2012 rolls around: I DARE YOU, I DOUBLE DARE YOU, to apply for every credit card known to man and completely max them all out with exorbitant purchases and off-the-cuff donations.

Hey, if you really believe that the world will end in Dec 2012 then what difference will having an epic credit card bill make if 2013 never comes... ;)

At the very least, your willingness to do such a thing should give you a good indication of how strong your belief actually is...

kaput's picture

It's not an ending of the world

I don't think anybody is talking or forecasting a physical arbitrary meaningless end of the world.

2012 in all the diverse predictions and channelings stands out as a year in which a profound and gigantic spiritual transformation will occur, one that will indeed be accompanied by enormous catastrophes in the physical plane that are intended to stop the miserable direction and self destruction humanity is going towards.

The main issue in 2012 is not the physical destruction per se but the metaphysical essence of which the destruction is a symptom. Your challenge does not address this essence.

kaput | Mon, 08/31/2009 - 07:41
miller44's picture

It's not an ending of the world

>The main issue in 2012 is not the physical destruction per >se but the metaphysical essence of which the destruction >is a symptom. Your challenge does not address this essence.

If there is a transformation of this type pending I don't imagine it will occur unless people worldwide question their current beliefs. The challange I mentioned was meant to be a challange to beliefs. Please feel free to challange mine any time! ;)

And again, the challange was also meant in good humour + I would never want to upset anyone.

miller44 | Mon, 08/31/2009 - 09:04
sharonk's picture

all the way around

It's precisely all the way around - such a catastrophe will happen because otherwise people worldwide will not question their current beliefs. Sometimes things which seem cruel to us need to happen in order to awaken us, in the wider perspective they are stemming out of enormous compassion of the cosmos. We experience such lessons everyday - and when we do not catch the hints, the lessons get harder and harder until we notice them.

And the prime current belief we are supposed to be drawn to question is our skepticism, our belief in disbelief. It's astonishing the sophisticated masks this disbelief hides itself behind - deep religiousness, extreme spiritual reasoning, obsessive nihilism based on manipulative understanding of spiritual doctrines.

sharonk | Mon, 08/31/2009 - 10:15
miller44's picture

...are we expecting the unexpected?

Interesting discussion + thanks for the sincere input, but again, I am sorry that no one saw the humour in my initial post. ...I mean geez, it's only the end of the world we're talking about here; it's nothing to get all worked up over. :))

I realize that it's potentially a trap to defer to an outside authority on such matters, but when it comes to the future I'll happily give the late-great Nisargadatta the last word:

Maharaj: "...The future is not entirely unreal."

Questioner: "Which part of the future is real and which is not?"

Maharaj: "The unexpected and unpredictable is real."


miller44 | Mon, 08/31/2009 - 20:08
Omkaradatta's picture

Thanks, Nisargadatta...

Thanks, Nisargadatta. And, "2012" gives the mind something to think about for the next three years, after which we probably get a new date of some sort :-p.


Omkaradatta | Sun, 09/27/2009 - 19:45
suzame's picture

workshop for processing your secular disbelief

2012 may happen or may turn to be a fiction. But overruling categorically the possibility of 2012 catastrophe is a sign of tacit skepticism, of deep disbelief in metaphysics. As someone noted in one of the posts, many of us, spiritual people, carry with us unknowingly the same old skepticism from our secular period of life. This deep skepticism is manifested in our reactions to paranormal stuff.

Use the opportunity of 2012 and inspect your skepticism when reacting to that idea.

suzame | Sun, 09/27/2009 - 07:04
nathan's picture

2012 as a self test

Good point. I agree, it is a unique self test case and workshop to work on our atheist conditionings. In many of the responses regarding 2012 and other issues here I see the strong underlying secular realism kicking. The supporting arguments changed (2012 is low level spiritualism, just be and all the rest is fiction, maya, inquire who is it that think about all these metaphysical stuff, ghosts are illusion of the mind, paranormal is a deceit, God is formless and thus cannot be perceived, no self and so nothing beyond the senses and logic and so on) but the requested tacit result of secular skepticism is the same. The mind preserves its building blocks explicitly and if can't then implicitly.

Some of the new arguments may have some point in certain context but not in their generalized sweeping usage and not as a means to fight the maybe frightening paranormal.

nathan | Sun, 09/27/2009 - 08:38
Omkaradatta's picture


Reality is neither secular/skeptical nor religious/superstitious, neither objective nor subjective.

The 'conditioning' is to be locked into one of these two sides, to believe all that is available is to be stuck either into a scientific mindset, or a paranormal/superstitious mindset.

No mindset at all is necessary.


Omkaradatta | Sun, 09/27/2009 - 19:10
Phroggy's picture

Maybe that's the key. I'm

Maybe that's the key.
I'm beginning to understand what's happening on this forum. (I think) In my world, secular is a derrogatory term used by fundamental Christians. (secular humanists)I hear quite a bit of anti-religion sentiment here, and so it seems many are trying to move away from religious dogma, but perhaps it's being replaced with metaphysics and paranormal beliefs. The skeptic/secularist is then one who doesn't believe in the 'religion' of metaphysics. The use of logic and reason then becomes the enemy of the religion of metaphysics and the experience of metaphysical phenomena becomes the proof of the truth of the religion.

It's been difficult to see all those dynamics because , as you imply, it's all irrelevant. Truth isn't about metaphysics or belief or not being skeptical or secular. It's also not about whether mind engages in logic and reason, and it's not specifically about the absence of thinking in general or about having some experience. It's really about the absence of the 'me', and maybe this is one place nobody really wants to go so much.

Phroggy | Sun, 09/27/2009 - 20:34
Omkaradatta's picture

Dunno if it's relevant, but...

Dunno if it's relevant or not, but there are clearly a lot of young people around here in their teens, 20's, 30's. This tends to be an age range of rebellion, as well as an intensely social outlook that would make the concept of riddance of the 'me' and the 'you' not so attractive.


Omkaradatta | Sun, 09/27/2009 - 21:01
mayasurfer's picture

"It's really about the

"It's really about the absence of the 'me', and maybe this is one place nobody really wants to go so much."
Because nobody knows this place... you can't imagine it, you can't understand it, you can't find it, as long as "you" exist the place does not..this "you" might have to "die" which is too scary to even think about. So you escape into beliefs and superstition and whatever else to keep the "me" intact instead of allowing the "me" to "die" and as soon as this "me" is gone..whoosh, that place IS there. Ahhhhh... trees treeing, flowers flowering, "you" you-ing. Emptiness dancing. So simple. Where is this place? Not in 2012, that's for sure.

mayasurfer | Mon, 09/28/2009 - 07:11
Phroggy's picture

"Because nobody knows this

"Because nobody knows this place... you can't imagine it, you can't understand it, you can't find it, as long as "you" exist the place does not..this "you" might have to "die" which is too scary to even think about. So you escape into beliefs and superstition and whatever else to keep the "me" intact instead of allowing the "me" to "die""

Yes, now i understand now why that has been so strongly resisted here. The fact that it's a guru forum and that many of the gurus are actually Self realized and teach about this is what threw me off, but apparently none of those teachings are understood.

My notion about metaphysics being the new religion here is confirmed by the comments; the idea that not believing is "masqueraded atheism", and that "westerners in the spiritual world resist the paranormal", which is "disguised atheism".

Actually, Western seekers are very much into metaphysics. It's called New Age and aside from formal religions, it seems to be the most prominant spiritual focus, because there is a very active 'me' involved. Personally, I've always loved metaphysics and I even was one of those new agers for a short time, but if one is interested in genuine spirituality, one quickly outgrows that metaphysics stage.

It's not that metphysics is wrong. As said a couple times already, it's just irrelevant, and as mentioned by Tim, it's just another focus of the mind for the 'me' to entertain itself with. The idea that metaphysics is somehow not 'heavily into mind' is another deception of the mind. All the techniques talked about here should be a clue. Techniques are ONLY for the mind. It's certainly NOT 'genuine' spirituality, but it's a valid stage and i wish all our Eastern new agers well.

It's possible that my time at Gurusfeet is coming to an end. We'll see, but it seems i needed to understand what was happening here and I do believe I'm seeing the light.

Phroggy | Tue, 09/29/2009 - 02:32
kalgo's picture

western culture's intellect-driven conditioning

You've got a point. It always amazes me that so many westerners who have entered the spiritual world persist in their resistance to anything which is paranormal. It can be for years and even for lifetime. Their mind remains completely the same. It is a spiritless spirituality, a disguised atheism. It is usually derived from fear of the unknown and mainly the uncontrollable and it usually changes when one witnesses first hand paranormal phenomena which are unquestionable like seeing anything else. That's what happened to me. That's the reason why I know in retrospective that without this important step, spirituality remains as an intellectual game. Everything is still governed by the mind. All conclusions are structured reasoning. 2012 is a good test case. It doesn't mean that everybody must believe automatically in 2012 but if you find yourself promptly dismissing it just because it speaks about metaphysical aspects then you are most probably in that group regardless of the reasons your mind will come up with and if you are honest enough with yourself you will do the right things to pass this phase like following the suggestions in http://www.gurusfeet.com/blog/trick-increase-trust-and-belief-beyond and http://www.gurusfeet.com/forum/enhancing-connection-god and http://www.gurusfeet.com/blog/belief-skepticism-and-ghosts

kalgo | Mon, 09/28/2009 - 00:08
Omkaradatta's picture


I dismiss 2012 because it is of the mind, of the usual past/future orientation which is imaginary and is unrelated to the here and now -- where life is actually happening.

Those interested in this type of materials are dead inside, just as much so as a hard-core mathematician.


Omkaradatta | Mon, 09/28/2009 - 00:43
Jasmin's picture

Masqueraded atheism

You are dismissing it because you are heavily into mind. Read several posts above - they describe exactly the basis of your later response :-)

Jasmin | Mon, 09/28/2009 - 08:12
Omkaradatta's picture

All is silent here

All is silent here... so thanks for telling what's happening with the above writer ;-).


Omkaradatta | Mon, 09/28/2009 - 20:12
Omkaradatta's picture


Why not be skeptical both of the scientific, and the paranormal?

Both are of the mind. One objective, one subjective. Subject/object. Why are we stuck here, with these two? Why are either of them necessary?


Omkaradatta | Sun, 09/27/2009 - 19:51
mayasurfer's picture



mayasurfer | Mon, 09/28/2009 - 04:42
Omkaradatta's picture

Oh, wait!

Yes, and 2012 could actually happen in 2013, or 2014, or 2015!!!@! And what if... oh, wait :-p.


Omkaradatta | Mon, 09/28/2009 - 06:24
mayasurfer's picture

No, don't wait

it will happen NOW, belief me, it's NOW or NEVER (and that would be disappointing,eh).

mayasurfer | Mon, 09/28/2009 - 07:18
Jasmin's picture

You misunderstand what here and now feel and mean

It always amuses me how you guys demonstrate in your responses exactly the behavior discussed before to which the response is. How your analytical minds protect you from developing or changing. What creative excuses your minds come up with, projection crap, "they", etc. What a distorted interpretations it gives to the concept of here and now.

Wake up!

Jasmin | Mon, 09/28/2009 - 08:27
Omkaradatta's picture

It isn't possible...

It isn't possible to 'understand' the here and now, let alone misunderstand it. Here and now is Silent... there is no mind Here. "Mind" is time.


Omkaradatta | Mon, 09/28/2009 - 20:10
phantom being's picture

2012 end of the world

I think the movie was a real treat to watch. I am not a scientist or an astronomer or even somebody who has in depth knowledge of the so called numerous predictions that are believed to have been made by Nostradamus, The I Ching and other occult systems. From what I know the Mayan calendar ends on 21 12 2012 and the other predictions I feel were made to synchronize with this date and I feel this is the biggest hoax and joke of this and the previous century. If something were to happen on that date I would be really surprised. If the whole planet earth just blew to smithereens would it not be a good thing after all. I have not really understood why we are here and what purpose we are serving by being here and who stands to gain or lose by our being here. If the world ends it will be a good thing for all. So let u all pray for it to end.

phantom being

phantom being | Sat, 12/05/2009 - 16:29