Why the world is illusory...

Omkaradatta's picture

Average: 3 (5 votes)

Gurus like to talk about how the world is illusory, but maybe it seems real to us anyway. Can we demonstrate to ourselves, here and now, that it really IS illusory? Sure!

I've been talking lately about "maps vs. territory", how memory consists of a rough blueprint of reality, but isn't a reality itself. Every experience is actually new, for the first time, because we enter into it with only a blueprint (which we term "having done it before").

Let's suppose we're looking outside our bedroom window, and decide to close the curtains. All we can see now is the room itself. Is the "outside world" really out there?

If we look around the room now, it's *here*. If we close our eyes and visualize the world outside, we're visualizing the blueprint, which is *here* too.

So what does "there" mean? Again, it refers to memory (our blueprint), which is actually *here*!

There is only our perception of the room, our Being, and our blueprint in memory, all of which are *here* with us.

So, do you say there's a world out there still?

Phroggy's picture

That's like saying, if you

That's like saying, if you close your eyes you don't see anything, so it prooves there's nothing there. I don't think it prooves anything.

Phroggy | Sat, 09/13/2008 - 08:14
Omkaradatta's picture

It is?

If it was, I would have said "If you close your eyes you don't see anything, so it proves there's nothing there".

Your not 'seeing' the point intuitively has nothing to do with what I wrote.


Omkaradatta | Sat, 09/13/2008 - 08:18
Omkaradatta's picture

Changed the word 'prove'

... above to 'demonstrate', as 'prove' seems to be an ego-hangup type word. I keep forgetting how important certain words seem to be to the ego.


Omkaradatta | Sat, 09/13/2008 - 08:31
Phroggy's picture

Well, I dunno about ego hang

Well, I dunno about ego hang up, but "prooves" certainly seems to point to mind's logic and reason, so I answered from there.

Yes, it's clear that the actual experience happens only in the moment and is actually fresh and new each time if we don't 'leave the moment' to check our recollection of it. Our memory cannot contain the actual experience but only our interpretation of it.

Whether or not the world is objectively present when we're not observing it, seems to be another 'matter'.

Phroggy | Sat, 09/13/2008 - 08:44
Omkaradatta's picture

I could have sworn...

... that "whether or not the world is objectively present" was the matter this blogging is actually addressing... never mind. *sigh*...


Omkaradatta | Sat, 09/13/2008 - 09:07
Phroggy's picture

It obviously is. What I'm

It obviously is. What I'm saying is that your example doesn't proove, demonstrate, or even imply that it's not.

Okay, I'll go back to being blunt. *sigh*

Phroggy | Sat, 09/13/2008 - 17:48
Omkaradatta's picture

Instead of being blunt...

... can you just be straightforward? Ya know you can do that with 'me'. If my example doesn't prove, demonstrate or even imply anything to you, great... it's a pointing that didn't 'work' for you. Why you wanted to point that out I don't know, but surely you have your reasons :-p.


Omkaradatta | Sat, 09/13/2008 - 18:14
Phroggy's picture

I actually wish that I could

I actually wish that I could somehow manipulate folks into reading what I write and actually giving it serious considerstion before responding with automatic resistance and dismissal, but I would have to continually placate ego and I find that's a full time job, so I usually just call it as I see it and maybe see something in the process.

So, since what I see is that your example doesn't demonstrate anything, your conclusion is that your 'pointer' doesn't work for me. If it were offered as a pointer, I may have said I don't get the pointer, but it was first offered as proof, then offered as a demonstration. I'm not an idiot. It was neither proof nor a demonstration of anything.

Phroggy | Sat, 09/13/2008 - 19:06
Omkaradatta's picture

Everything I post here...

... is offered as a pointer to the truth in one way or another, except maybe for 'personal' replies within Blogs. End of story.

You take words far too seriously, in my view, but that comes as no surprise -- so does nearly everyone else.


Omkaradatta | Sun, 09/14/2008 - 01:45
george's picture

There can still be a world

There can still be a world out there. You can not "prove" that the world is an illusion using mind's tools (words, claims, arguments etc.) simply because the "world" is by defintion whatever the mind perceives, there is no beyond-world perceived by the mind so that the mind can now inspect within the context of the greater domain of the beyond if the lesser subdomain called "world" exists or is an illusion.

You can still believe in it, suspect that it is so, take it as a working assumption.

"If we look around the room now, it's *here*. If we close our eyes and visualize the world outside, we're visualizing the blueprint, which is *here* too."

Your true "here" is not the physical here, you are not really here as you are not the body, the here you mention is also a "there". Whatever you (i.e. your body) can perceive is "there". Allegorically, it can be said that "you" are using your body as an agent, a remote control, a periscope. And while you truly abide in being, there is no meaning whatsoever to here and there.

george | Sun, 09/14/2008 - 14:56
Omkaradatta's picture

Out there...

"There can still be a world out there."

In fact, the concept of 'out there' is itself an illusion. We have never experienced anything as being away from us, only imagined it as such.

"simply because the "world" is by defintion whatever the mind perceives,"

It isn't. Have you ever perceived a world, a collective? You have perceived your bedroom, perceived the inside of a store, perceived a view of the ocean, perceived the taste of sugar, etc. but the continuity is all in the mind. You can only put it all together in the mind and *imagine* a world based on past memories, not perceive one.

This world you feel yourself to be living in, isn't there. It's imaginary. Realizing this doesn't change much, of course, except you see the truth of things.


Omkaradatta | Sun, 09/14/2008 - 23:30