Tips for truth seekers part-3

santthosh kumaar's picture



Average: 3 (1 vote)

This is only an information to help and guide the truth seekers.

1. Many seekers are caught up with idea that the focusing on the single thought, will lead them to realization of self. There is no doubt thinking is the tool, but the thought is the obstacle in the pursuit of truth.Thus thought is not the key to overcome the experince of duality but thinking and grasping is only a tool in pursuit of truth.

One has to realize the experince of duality is prior to the thought. The thought is the individual experience within the experince of duality or mind. The thought rises only when the experince of duality or mind is present. Thought bifurcates each and every object within the experince of duality. Therefore, unity of thoughts is an impossible venture. Because it creates the feeling that, the person is an individual separate from the world. Whereas the person and his experince of the world are within the experince duality or mind.

The mind which appears,disappears and reappears. Therefore it is necessary to trace the invisible knower, which is the true self to overcome the experince of duality or mind.

2. Surrender to belief is not the means to overcome the duality. The belief is not the ultimate truth. The surrender to belief is mere imaginary and leads one towards hallucination. Even if one tries to surrender to his belief, he will never be able to do it. All these fables are meant for those people, who are incapable to think and unable to inquire and reason, not for the serious truth seekers.

3.Focusing on the breath and accepting the breath as self, is not the key to overcome the experince of duality. The breath and the body exit together within the experince of duality or mind. If there is no mind there is neither breath nor the body nor the experince of the world exists. Therefore it is necessary to unfold the mystery of the mind rather trying all sorts of unnecessary ventures, to overcome the experince of duality.



Phroggy's picture

Duality prior to thought?

"One has to realize the experince of duality is prior to the thought."

Thought is part of the experience of duality. In case what was meant is that nonduality is prior to thought, that would be correct, but it is not an experience. Experience requires 'objective' perception, memory and time, none of which are available in a nondual realization.

Phil

Phroggy | Wed, 08/13/2008 - 05:34
santthosh kumaar's picture

Re;dulity is prior to thought

Santthosh
Hi Madam and Mr,Phil,
Thank you for your response,
The thought rises within the experince of duality. Thought is an individual experince, within the experince of duality.
The thought cannot rise without the form. The form cannot exist without the world. Man and his experince of the world together is mind. The mind is, an experince, in which, man perceives the world. Without the mind, there is no experince. Without the experince there is no duality. Without duality it is non dual reality. Therefore the thought rises only within the experince. Illustration is dream.

In dream thought comes to dream entity.Without the dream experince, how can the dream person and his experince of the world exist. It is only when the whole experince appears the the thoughts starts appearing.The thought and thinker are within the experince. Therefore whatever happening within the dream is falsehood. Likewise whatever is happening within the Waking is also falsehood on the base of the true self, which is the spirit.Therefore one has to know the true self is not 'I',but the knower of the 'I', which is the non dual spirit.

Thus thought is not the key to overcome the experince duality. One has to trace the invisible knower of the mind,which appears and disappears, to unfold the mystery of the mind.
The ego,memory,time,form and space appear together as experince of duality.

I admire your capacity of understanding. You have crossed most of the barricade and the fatter on this pursuit. Very little is there for you to cross over to the kingdom of non duality.
With respect and regards
Santthosh.
Take care.

santthosh kumaar | Wed, 08/13/2008 - 12:57
Phroggy's picture

Form is the dream

Hi Santthosh
Thanks for responding.
Lets take your dream illustration. Does the dreamscape form within the dream character or is the dream character also part of the dreamscape which forms in the mind?

Likewise, in the larger context, dualistic perception does not require an objective world. From whence cometh this objective world? The object of perception and the perception are the same, and they arise in Consciousness together, now. We could say that creation and perception are the same, and this creation/perception is dualistic by its nature because it is all formed out of nothingness and self defines.

The human form is not required for dualistic perception, as anyone who has had an OBE or NDE strongly suspects. Since it is all forming within Consciousness, Consciousness does not require a physical device. We could say that the human body and it's brain and sense organs form within the waking dream in response to the question, 'How does dualistic experience happen?' It's a dualitic answer to a meaningless question. Form is emptiness.

Phil

Phroggy | Wed, 08/13/2008 - 19:10
santthosh kumaar's picture

RE;form is dream

Santthosh
Hi Madame and brother Phil,
Thank you for your response.
Not only form but along with its experince of the world, also is a dream.
Why use many words, whatever one thinks,perceives and experiences as dream and waking is mind. Mind is experince duality. Mind is illusion on the standpoint of true self, which is spirit. Therefore it is no use of create division with words and thoughts.Since everything is within the experince of duality, which is full of diversity. And whole experince of diversity is created out of one and only substence, and that substence itself, is the witness. Because there is no second thing other than the non dual spirit, in the experince of diversity. Therefore, it is better to call the whole experince of diversity in one word , that is as mind.

Until and unless seeker learns to view and judge the worldview on the standpoint of spirit or Ataman as self, all these doubts and confusion bound to haunt the seeker.

Once the seeker is able to view and judge the worldview on the standpoint of the true self , which is the spirit they become aware of the non dual truth. Therefore, the thought based seeking will keep, the seeker in the grip of the intoxication of duality, and he will not be able to cross the the barricade of physicality. The non dual realization is possible only when seeker is able to overcome the physicality. To overcome the physicality seeker has to rectify his seeking base from, form to formless.

Instead of basing it on thought, which is the part and parcel of the illusion or mind ,it is better to trace, what has this illusion or the witness of this illusion, which appears ,disappears and reappears as mind.

To overcome the experince of duality or mind one has to discover the invisible substence and witness of the mind, which is the true self. The self is with in the mind as its substence and it is apart from the mind as its witness. It is apart,because it is not an entity or identity within the experince of duality.

It is necessary to trace the true self in order to get the true meaning of the bible's spiritual insight: 'I' and Father are one--which means the mind[I] and the self[Father] are one in essence[spirit].

Since one views and judges on the base of 'I' as self all these doubts and confusion persists. Therefore it is necessary to realize the true self is not 'I' but the witness of the 'I' which is spirit. Then only seeker will be able to judge what is truth and what is not truth.

Therefore, truth cannot be viewed and judged on the base of 'I' which is the false identity within the illusion or mind.Form is not emptiness,but the substence of the form, which is non dual spirit, is empty of form or duality or 'I',when it is realized ,as the true self.

Until and unless the whole seeking base is rectified, it becomes difficult assimilate the truth.

With respect and regards
Santthosh
Take care.

santthosh kumaar | Thu, 08/14/2008 - 09:19
Omkaradatta's picture

Who is tracing?

"Therefore it is necessary to trace the invisible knower, which is the true self to overcome the experince of duality or mind."

Who or what is tracing the invisible knower? The outer (person) cannot act volitionally at all, cannot trace anything.

Don't forget that the mind bifurcates into duality/nonduality as well. Look away from the computer right now -- look around the room, notice the sights, sounds, sensations, feeling in the body, etc: the whole gestalt of the current situation.

This is all that exists (or will ever exist): 'suchness' or 'thusness', here and now. Everything else is illusory and a dream, including spirituality, duality, nonduality, time, space, you, me, etc. This will probably be a very unpopular notion, but consider it for a moment.

http://www.omkaradatta.info

Omkaradatta | Thu, 08/14/2008 - 02:19
santthosh kumaar's picture

RE:who is tracing

Santthosh
Pranam Gurudev,
As per the Indian tradition it is not correct to discuss with the enlightened guru, since one has to unconditionally accept whatever they utter as truth. Therefore, with lots of humility and respect I bow to you and pray to accept my silence as my comments or answer for your comments.

With lots of respect and humility to revered and enlightened Gurudev Sadguru Omkardutta Maharaj.
Santhosh.

santthosh kumaar | Thu, 08/14/2008 - 09:31
Coyote's picture

Here in the West

As per my tradition taught by my guru's Phil & Ommy, it is customery to question your Gurus and challange their teachings to attain truth. If you have questions or doubts please honor them and speak with your heart.

Coyote | Thu, 08/14/2008 - 20:02
Phroggy's picture

Question everything

Yes, indeedy. Best piece of advice I ever heard from a guru is "question everything, believe nothing I say."

Philnoguru

Phroggy | Fri, 08/15/2008 - 00:30
santthosh kumaar's picture

RE:here in the west

Santthosh
Hi coyte,
Thank you for your response. It is no use of challenging any guru or mind set, who are based on different pole of understanding. The people who are already accepted something else as truth, has to be left alone, until they find and feel, their realization is incomplete. By challenging and arguments does not yield the truth. But sharing the views and helping each others will differently help the seekers to reach their non dual destination.

Truth pursuit is a personal journey. We cannot force any one to accept our idea and impose our idea on others. As great non dual Master Sri, Baba Omkara of 7th century declared that: seekers of truth should not argue or challenge with others, it will be only an intellectual exhibition,rather argue with their own self, with inquiry and reasoning, which will yield desired results.

As great non dual Master Sri, Baba Nirakara of 7th century declared that the man of truth has to help and guide only the seekers who have intense urge not to those, who think they know everything what other do not know.

It is no use of discussing with self declared enlightened gurus, but to respect them as fellow human beings. Since they are in their own paradise of understanding. It is not of any use to discuss with them. Because it is neither helps them nor I am able to help and guide them.It is better to avoid discussing with the people, who indulge in intellectual exhibition,which is not of any use in the pursuit of truth, with polite words without hurting them.

There is no east,west and south and north in pursuit of truth , but everyone has to continue with their chosen path,only when they find it is inadequate and useless then only look elsewhere.

You are lucky to have your gurus Phil& Ommy. Sincerely follow them , they will help and guide to reach your destination.Continue your pursuit as directed by your gurus. I wish all the best and success to you.

Since, I have no doubts and confusion left in my mind ,therefore, I do not have any questions to clear my doubts from your masters.

With lots of respect and regards to your gurus.
With respect and regards
Santthosh
Take care.

santthosh kumaar | Fri, 08/15/2008 - 01:22
Phroggy's picture

Delusion-R-us

And so Santthosh has declared that the Awakening event has occurred and he is now a man of Truth. There has not been an Awakening event in Phil, but there is much clarity, and when I hear genuine words of truth from a genuine master, there is no doubt of their authenticity, and yet boundaries can clearly be seen in the understanding of master Santthosh.

"the man of truth has to help and guide only the seekers who have intense urge not to those, who think they know everything what other do not know."

Hence the difficulty in the one way conversations here with master Santthosh.

As far as your assertion that we should not argue with others but rather with ourselves, with an adequate amount of integrity involved, they are the same. All challenges to one's intuitive or conceptual understanding that arise in conversation is an opportunity to reflect within and perceive a deeper clarity. Transcending ones mental grasping rarely happens in the safety of solitude where such thoughts need never arise. Otherness is a wonderful reflection of the boundaries of self and I say engage vibrantly, openly, with integrity and curiosity, with courage and a child-like wonder. Everything is moving toward Truth and nobody is causing the movement. Such discussion as these are therefore part of the perfection and are not to be avoided or sneered at.

Phil

Phroggy | Fri, 08/15/2008 - 19:41
santthosh kumaar's picture

Re: Delusion

Santthosh
Hi madame and brother Phil,
Thank you for your kind response. You are free to have whatever opinion of your own, since it remains as your own opinion.
When mind is free from all accumulated dross, then only it becomes receptive to receive self knowledge,otherwise it simply tries to throw out , whatever it has read believed and accumulated and experienced as real. When seekers are still caught up with their chosen path and remain satisfied ,it is very difficult to change their present mindset. It is no use of discussing with such mind set which has already accepted something else as truth. Discussion yields results only when we discuss on the same base of understanding.Otherwise, it is like a dance teacher teaching maths who has not studied maths. Therefore it is necessary to have the mind sets, who are tired of all paths and practices and ready to listen and assimilate and make sure whatever is said, is true by verifying with inquiry and reasoning and assimilate the un-contradicted non dual truth, on their own, to have the firm conviction.
Since the base of thinking is on the base of form it is necessary to know, how the from is formless and establish in the formless base, and view and judge the worldview on the formless base. Because everyone wants to retain their physical identity and trying to achieve and attain the truth, it becomes impossible for them to assimilate what I am saying through my blogs. It is impossible to read blogs and assimilate truth or come to conclusion and pass opinion without studying the full subject,since base of thinking is on different poles. It needs preparation and necessary to rectify their seeking base from form to formless to assimilate, what I am saying. F.S is for those who are tired of all paths and practices and looking to unfold the mystery of the experince of duality or mind.

There is no need declare me as man of truth, from the example mentioned in the comments. Man and his experince of the world[MIND] cease to exist in the true nature of the mind, which is non dual spirit.
Since you and others know much more about the truth, then any one else, it is helpful for the seekers of your base of understanding.
I have gone through all your blogs they are really fantastic and has a great value in spiritual field based on the form.
Whatever we discuss and argue are within the experince of duality or illusion. Let us focus our attention on the non dual spirit, which has this illusion to overcome the illusion, and remain unaffected by the intoxication of illusion, where you and me and rest of the world has become one with the non dual reality.

santthosh kumaar | Sat, 08/16/2008 - 05:09
Omkaradatta's picture

Form and emptiness

Hi Santthosh,

Perhaps you don't see that you are separating things into form vs. emptiness.

I, too, was once caught up in this dilemma - how could form be emptiness, and emptiness be form? When I realized this, I gave up spirituality altogether and went back to everyday life. When this happened, all seeking at last dropped away. It is a futile dichotomy. Form and emptiness are ultimately not separate. Samsara is nirvana.

"F.S is for those who are tired of all paths and practices and looking to unfold the mystery of the experince of duality or mind."

Yet you are presenting "formless spirituality" as a sort of path, aren't you? It even has its own tag here. Those who are tired of all paths and practices are ignoring you as well as everyone else, and following their own lights.

http://www.omkaradatta.info

Omkaradatta | Sat, 08/16/2008 - 05:54
Omkaradatta's picture

Good

"Since, I have no doubts and confusion left in my mind ,therefore, I do not have any questions to clear my doubts from your masters."

If the above is a sincere declaration, then good: That is that.

Of course, your judgment of folks "indulging in intellectual exhibition, which is not of any use in the pursuit of truth" is an intellectual exhibition, which is not of any use in the pursuit of truth ;-).

http://www.omkaradatta.info

Omkaradatta | Sat, 08/16/2008 - 03:03
Omkaradatta's picture

Don't be silly...

I'm obviously posting here as a web-site user, not as a guru in the Indian tradition (I'm not from India, anyway).

Whether or not you accept what I say as truth is your own business. It would be nice if folks reflect a little on what's posted here, not (just) from me but postings from everyone. Beyond that, it doesn't matter.

Please note also that I *do not* accept the title of Maharaj, for whatever it's worth.

"As per my tradition taught by my guru's Phil & Ommy, it is customery to question your Gurus and challange their teachings to attain truth."

Agreed on the above, except perhaps for the word "challenge" (which suggests an egoic approach). I'm not right or wrong, and neither are you - rather, neither of us are separate from one another. Our discussion is itself the Truth, the fact of communication, which is simply here and now.

http://www.omkaradatta.info

Omkaradatta | Sat, 08/16/2008 - 03:22