surrender to Him

sangeeta's picture



Average: 4.7 (3 votes)

You are on path of Sadhna as His wish. To remain there, only way is to surrender. To just release yourself and surrender and wait. Your karma, thoughts, experiences all surrender to Him.



divine intervention's picture

So simple and true!

So simple and true!

I feel there is no other way, just to surrender, to accept whatever, to completely abandon wish of control.

divine intervention | Thu, 07/31/2008 - 06:57
Phroggy's picture

Your undoing cannot be done.

Yes, it is what must happen, but it is not a doing thing. You cannot do surrender because it is an undoing. It happens when we have had quite enough of the struggle; when we clearly see the futility of it. Futility then becomes the goal, and it is a worthy one.

Phil

Phroggy | Fri, 08/01/2008 - 02:02
divine intervention's picture

Limitation of language

You are right. Actually, if you check it, all the important spiritual "doings" are names for the ceasing of doings.

Being = stopping to do
Awareness = stopping to suppress
Accepting = stopping to resist

It is the limitation of language (and the mind's thinking) that assumes that the negation of one doing is another doing.

This may be a contributing reason why when we try to stop doing, the mind gets into a stress.

divine intervention | Fri, 08/01/2008 - 06:00
Phroggy's picture

Eggzakly

Yup, I noticed at one point that everything that works is some kind of getting out of the way, which makes sense, so I started looking at how that is done and found that it isn't done, so I started looking at why the doing happens, and it's in this looking that the illusions are revealed, and once revealed as futile, the mind no longer has a reason to do that anymore, so it has become for me a process of revealing the futility of the doing.

No attempts to control or resist, just revealing to the mind what isn't so, what doesn't work, what isn't real. Desires and attachments and struggle begin to fall away, and the mind gets progressively more silent, even if a bit irritated at it's impotence. In this, it becomes apparent that the mind is simply responding to what it perceives and ignores all attempts by the imagined ego to dominate and control it.

Phil

Phroggy | Fri, 08/01/2008 - 20:00
Omkaradatta's picture

Futility of the doing?

"so it has become for me a process of revealing the futility of the doing."

The reason you will never see the futility revealed is because such revealing (as you state above) is not futile to you, but productive ;-). Think about it...

It's quite an ingenious trap the mind has created. Seek that which only comes unbidden (e.g. futility). And all along, the moment is totally available, open. Now.

http://www.omkaradatta.info

Omkaradatta | Sat, 08/02/2008 - 02:50
Phroggy's picture

Stop thinking, start looking

You begin with the assumption that it's not possible, and then proceed to explain why. Question all your assumptions, but I don't recommend thinking as your primary tool.

As one obvious (to most) example, life is a movement of dualistic experience. As a movement only, how would it be possible to attain a permanent state of happiness without continually moving toward it? The moment you stopped moving toward something better, the experience (which is what the movement is) fades, and another movement must be started. We've all experienced this, but it can be clearly seen if we care to look.

Also, happiness is defined dualistically in our personal experience, meaning that we can only perceive happiness against the backdrop of our own experience of unhappiness. If all unhappiness is gone from our lives, we literally have no way of subjectively defining our state of mind. Again, we all have a sense of this from our experience, but we can see that it is so if we care to look.

What happens when mind clearly sees that ultimate happiness is not possible in dualistic experience? It stops chasing after it, right? The futility of that chasing has been recognized.

Yes, it is productive to realize futility. If this is a paradox for you, then that's what it is for you. The paradoxes reveal boundaries of the mind.

Phil

Phroggy | Sat, 08/02/2008 - 18:59
Omkaradatta's picture

Futility is possible...

"You begin with the assumption that it's not possible, and then proceed to explain why."

You are mistaken. Futility is possible, but not when it's being sought. It's as though you were seeking defeat in a war, which is quite clearly absurd - one surrenders, one does not seek to lose the war through various skillful means.

You claim to be "looking to see if futility is there" in a different post, yet in the last breath you claimed that futility is a "worthy goal". Which is it? In either case, you will not find it - it is the end of you, not a goal which can be 'seen' dualistically by an observer. In other words, futility neither can nor need be sought.

http://www.omkaradatta.info

Omkaradatta | Tue, 08/05/2008 - 00:24
Phroggy's picture

futility of communication

"You are mistaken. Futility is possible, but not when it's being sought."

The concept is that it is futile. Looking to see if that is so, is a worthy goal. Parsing the words of others instead of trying to understand, is not.

Phil

Phroggy | Tue, 08/05/2008 - 08:39
Omkaradatta's picture

Trying to understand

Not sure what there is to understand - you've talked about this 'futility' thing numerous times, and stated your goals numerous times as well. It seems very clear from here what you're after.

http://www.omkaradatta.info

Omkaradatta | Tue, 08/05/2008 - 16:49
sangeeta's picture

surrender

A beautiful message : our mind grasping all desires, thoughts, fears from this world around us. These are the supplies for our dreams and subconscious state. If our intake is God, Spiritual Thoughts, then the same will be outcome in dreams and subconscous mind. When our mind is filled with Spiritual thoughts then there wil be no place for other thoughts. And most easy way is to surrender and ger engrossed. I find this simple.

sangeeta | Fri, 08/01/2008 - 09:08
Omkaradatta's picture

The goal

"Futility then becomes the goal, and it is a worthy one."

From here, there are no worthy goals. As long as a "worthy goal" is in the picture, the one striving for it will be too.

Futility is not an achievement. You cannot just declare "it's all an undoing" and then conclude that you aren't seeking because of this. If one is seeking undoing or futility, one is seeking something. True surrender is to let go the search altogether, along with any goals attached to it (particularly enlightenment or oneness), otherwise it is just a 'spiritual ego' seeking spiritual goals. "Seeking futility" is a trap, and quite an interesting one.

Surrender is always to the moment, to the Now, to the utter absence of anything like "future". There is no escaping the present in order to attain anything, not even the understanding that there's nothing to attain.

http://www.omkaradatta.info

Omkaradatta | Sat, 08/02/2008 - 01:10
Tania's picture

plus, the seeker has no idea about the "goal"

Seeking is towards a goal. You seek something, you don't just seek.

But the goal that the seeker imagines is just a mind-made ego-made fantasy, some milestone of achievement, some image extracted from spiritual accounts he read and heard. He has no other sources to rely on when he fantasizes this goal.

At some point, the "seeker" abandons the formal framework of seeking, he is just floating now, like a straw stick on the waves of a river. He will finally make its way to the sea as all rivers end in the sea but the straw stick cannot know it as it never saw the sea. From this point, the "seeker" doesn't care anymore about spiritual advancement and spiritual achievements. He has just broke another attachment of the ego, this time a very tricky one, one that exploits spirituality itself.

Tania | Sat, 08/02/2008 - 08:00
Phroggy's picture

The ultimate seeking: Stop the seeking

If what one is seeking is enlightenment, then you are correct. There is no reason to seek this, but the futility of that may only be realized in the seeking. The seeking to which I'm referring is not the seeking of Truth, but rather the seeking to know mind's self created delusions. Is it a mind made ego fantasy to notice mind's delusions? No, this is another trap to keep the fantasies in place without ever being looked at or challenged.

Ask yourself why the seeking is being abandoned. Is it because the futility of the seeking has been realized? Then the seeking of futility was very productive. If the seeking has stopped because it is believed that the seeking must stop in order to reach the goal, then the seeking has not stopped, has it?

Phil

Phroggy | Sat, 08/02/2008 - 19:36
Phroggy's picture

One more time, surrender is not a doing.

Omkara, If you will re-read the post, you'll notice I never implied that I am not seeking. Of course I am seeking. It seems to be a predictable characteristic of the seeker that he will seek. Funny how that works out. So, I have not concluded that I am not seeking, and I have not concluded that the seeking is futile. Rather, this is what I am seeking to know. Is it futile? The teachings say yes, most minds say 'I don't know'. It's not useful to grasp the concepts of the techings as though you know them to be true. You must look for yourself to see what is true and what isn't.

As discussed elsewhere, surrender is not something to be done, and one who is trying to do it has fallen into a trap. To say, you should not be seeking, you should be surrendering, is a prescription for a doing, a seeking, and it is one that will fail. It's mind/ego attempting to bring something about through control rather than clarity.

Phil

Phroggy | Sat, 08/02/2008 - 19:27
Omkaradatta's picture

Contradiction...

"I have not concluded that the seeking is futile. Rather, this is what I am seeking to know."

It seems here you'd have to be purposely blinding yourself to miss the inherent contradiction in the above statement. It is in fact an absurdity, like driving out to the place where it says if the roads are clear to drive.

http://www.omkaradatta.info

Omkaradatta | Tue, 08/05/2008 - 00:47
sangeeta's picture

Be a child

With so many spiritual paths, everyone HELPING you to reach to the goal, I simply feel to be a child and to surrender to Him. As you said, Accept all. We control ourselves and try to control others. What a waste of energy. Such a simple way to be the witness!

sangeeta | Fri, 08/01/2008 - 09:15
Phroggy's picture

Trying to surrender is control

So, how's that working out for you? Have you been able to surrender everything or have you encountered a limit to your ability to cause this surrender? After having lost the innocence of childhood, have you been able to regain it and forget what you think you know?

Realizing that surrender is the only way out is an excellent realization, but it is a realization, not a practice.

Phil

Phroggy | Sat, 08/02/2008 - 19:24
mika's picture

Surrender is the only practice

For me, surrender is a synonym for losing control.

I have found that surrender in reality is the only practice I can really "do", that it tops everything, that nothing can escape it if you do it truly and totally.

For example, you can sometimes temporarily lose your faith and trust. This can be horrifying. Then if you surrender and thus manages to accept even this situation, it doesn't bother you anymore. You are puzzled to see then that the one that lost the faith and the one that is depressed by the losing of the faith are both not you, are not aspects of your "I" as it doesn't bother you anymore, it is still there but does not affect you.

Through surrender I found myself minimizing, I realized the absurdity of the "I" because when you surrender to something, you suddenly find that your "I" does not include this something.

mika | Sat, 08/02/2008 - 20:46
Phroggy's picture

The 'I' is before even that.

That's great! Yes, the "I" also does not include that which imagines to be doing the surrendering. Surrendering happens.

Phil

Phroggy | Sun, 08/03/2008 - 05:05
sangeeta's picture

Hi Phil, Its just the

Hi Phil,

Its just the begining for me. Experiences drove me towards spiritualism, Reading helped me to understand, and the Practice is on. Today, whats written in Vedanta seems to be right. This liturature was written by sages thousands of years ago, after they experienced it. The similar thoughts are put forward by todays Gurus and Saints. I have yet to come across anything that is not written in the Vedanta. It also says its a long way, with years of practice and all over cleansing. Its way of life. I cannot write much as it strains my mind. It occurs to me that it is important to follow a path. our fate of being humans is planned for the purpose of finding the Atman. I would like you to put down your thoughts about this.

Regards

sangeeta | Tue, 08/05/2008 - 07:01
Phroggy's picture

Gurus and such

Hi Sangeeta
I don't believe it's the same for everyone, and there is no method. I would be suspicious of any guru who insists a guru is required or that some practice will insure results. It seems to me that some of the Eastern traditions have developed in this direction over time, but most contemporary teachers will simply offer pointers and ask you to look for yourself to see what is so.

Many will say the guru is within you, and I agree. I haven't really studdied the teachings, and so I'm no expert. I've read a book here and there and seen many quotes and I enjoy videos of Satsangs but I've never attended one. The answers are all found within if there is the willingness to look, and there's the added advantage of not getting caught in other people's concepts.

The reason I post on forums like this is not to teach, nor to learn directly from others, but to look intuitively as I discuss with others. Somehow, writing it all down helps to distance it all from the mind too. I've been doing it for many years and I have new insights daily, but maybe that just works for me.

Assuming it may apply to others, what I would suggest is to imagine that you are the only person on Earth, and you're determined to know what is true and what isn't, no matter what the cost. Approach it with a childlike innocence and curiosity. What you find really is pretty wonderous, and it's as good a motivation as any.

Phil

Phroggy | Tue, 08/05/2008 - 09:12
sangeeta's picture

100% agreement

Hi Phil,

I am in 100% agreement with the last para. Since there is a lot of chaos in the mind. The Most suitable path is the ancient indian one, which talks about living a pure life and meditating.

calming your Manas-sensory processing mind, Chitta-storage of impressions, Ahamkara-I maker or ego, Buddhi-knows,judges,deceives,discriminates.

In short it also mentions, to be a child and to be determind to know the truth.

The satsang that we see on video are shallow.

Enlightened gurus mostly live in solitude. They would want us to practice the same. Here solitude only indicates avoiding too much indulgence in the outside world. Now this TOO MUCH could hold everyones own defination.

Regards

sangeeta | Tue, 08/05/2008 - 09:52
dank's picture

Fearing to surrender

I will love to hear your experienced advices but please as less as possible theories (these I know very well :0), advices based on your direct experience.

When I practice surrender, when I try to accept horrible feelings within me, I have this sudden fear that I am not responsible, that I am abandoning the guarding of myself, that then when I am letting whatever is to be, these energies and feelings will take control over my body and psyche and strengthen.

dank | Sun, 08/03/2008 - 06:57
Phroggy's picture

No need to control

Hi Dank
As a general disclaimer, since I understand the concern, I don't talk about concepts that I don't see intuitively with clarity beyond the conceptual understanding. For example, you won't hear me talking about Oneness, unless it's to talk about what it is clearly not, because I don't know Oneness beyond the concepts. In fact, I rarely talk about my experiences, since experiences are also in question. A mind state is not Truth, and believing it is can be a nasty trap. After all, how can we separate illusory experience from 'true' experiences?

Interesting comment about the fear. I don't see feelings as energies, but rather as movements that arise directly from thought and are held in place by thought, which is also in motion. IOW, a thought arises, leading to a feeling. Left alone, the thought will fall, and then the feeling will fall. There is no such thing as a static thought or feeling; they are experienced only as they arise, only in their movement.

As such, when we find that a feeling seems to be 'stuck' in place, it is only because we continually cause it to arise by continually causing the thoughts to arise. Surely you've noticed when we're struggling with a feeling, sometimes someone or somethinbg will distract us for a moment, and the feeling immediately goes, at least until we can get mind back to the job of feeding the feeling.

And so, to me, there is no residual; nothing to be concerned about except the thought itself, which is feeding the feeling. A feeling cannot take over or gain strength in the absence of the thought, though we must be careful about unconscious thoughts resulting from suppression or denial. If the thoughts and feelings are all out in the open, there's nothing to fear by letting them go.

If you still feel that there is a problem to be solved or justice to be dispensed, you will not be willing to let it go. This willingness comes about through an understanding that life (yours and others) runs perfectly fine without 'your' help. That's just an unneccesary ego overlay.

Phil

Phroggy | Sun, 08/03/2008 - 09:17
Omkaradatta's picture

What's to fear?

"If the thoughts and feelings are all out in the open, there's nothing to fear by letting them go."

From here, there is indeed something to fear: The loss of (temporary) "Beingness" created by feelings. The physical sensation(s) involved in ego-emotion can be considered something of an addiction, as they are 'grounding'.

Recollecting one's original Beingness obviates the need for feelings (and thoughts, for that matter). Otherwise, there is zombie-hood to be feared, getting lost in the dryness of the intellect. Folks will naturally fear to 'go there'.

http://www.omkaradatta.info

Omkaradatta | Tue, 08/05/2008 - 01:36
Phroggy's picture

Clinging to feelings

Yes, there can be a clinging to feelings, even 'bad' ones because they give a sense of self. In this case, I got the impression that his fear of letting go of the control of (and therefore involvement with)the feelings had to do with being overwhelmed by some sort of negative energies or perhaps by the feelings themselves.

Phil

Phroggy | Tue, 08/05/2008 - 08:52