subject is formless and object is experience of duality

santthosh kumaar's picture



Average: 5 (2 votes)

Subject--object relation has to be determined not within the experince of duality[waking and dream].But between the experince of duality and its formless witness.

Whatever determined between false physical identity and the object, within the experince of diversity, will reveal only the objective knowledge not the knowledge of the subject.

"MEHER BABA Said:-A true aspirant is not content with the knowledge of spiritual realities based on hear say... he insists on the direct knowledge."

Therefore, the seeker of truth has to verify the fact through his own reasoning, before accepting anything as truth. Seeker has to accept only uncontradicted truth.

"Nirakara said:- before indulging in pursuit of truth, seeker has to make sure, whether the self is form, or self is formless, through inquiry and reasoning, and have the firm conviction about the true self.

If one finds form is the self, then the religion, yoga,atheism, theories and practices hold good for him, not pursuit of truth.

If one finds the formless is the self, then he is fit to venture in pursuit of truth."

Seekers of truth should not indulge in arguing with the people, who have different mind set. But they have to listen to them carefully without passing any comment. And quietly through inquiry reasoning mentally on the formless true base, accept if it is un-contradicted truth ,and reject, if it is not the truth.

Truth pursuit is a very personal journey and, it is not for arguing with others and condemning them. But it is for making sure what is truth, and have a firm conviction of truth for himself.

The truth revels only when one knows the real subject, and nature of the object. When one becomes sure mentally the subject is formless object is form, he becomes aware of the fact, that the whole objective experince is mere mirage. And the whole objective experince is created out of the subject which is formless.

Therefore, there is no duality in subjective awareness,because everything is created and witnessed by the subject. Hence there is no second thing other then the formless subject.

There is no proof needed to know about the formless subject. The bulb cannot be powered without the electricity. Same way the experince of duality[dream or waking] cannot be powered without the formless subject.

For communication purpose they call and identify with many names and words such as:- spirit,Ataman,consciousness,awareness,self,over self,god, Brahman etc... therefore it not correct to hold a particular word and argue. The words has no meaning in subjective awareness. The words and all the theories are hold good in objective awareness[EXPERINCE OF DUALITY].
It is very much necessary to realize the fact that subject is formless and object is form in pursuit of truth.



Omkaradatta's picture

Good posting...

This is the best you've posted yet, IMO ;-). Good summary of things. Ultimately, the 'formless subject' is identical to the object form, i.e. they are not-two, not apart.

But first, one has to get in touch with the Subject, forget the form, stop imagining there's some 'external' in which the subject (body) is born and imagining subject depends on object. Really, object (even the body) depends on Subject.

http://www.omkaradatta.info

Omkaradatta | Sat, 09/27/2008 - 03:49
santthosh kumaar's picture

Re:Good posting

Santthosh
Hi Omkardutta,
Thank you for your opinion.
Take care
Santthosh

santthosh kumaar | Sat, 09/27/2008 - 05:09
Omkaradatta's picture

No need...

No need to send thanks... comments are usual in this Blog format.

http://www.omkaradatta.info

Omkaradatta | Sat, 09/27/2008 - 06:49
mika's picture

"There is no proof needed to

"There is no proof needed to know about the formless subject. The bulb cannot be powered without the electricity. Same way the experince of duality[dream or waking] cannot be powered without the formless subject."

why there isn't a "proof" needed? and on what do you base the argument that "the experince of duality[dream or waking] cannot be powered without the formless subject"?

mika | Sat, 09/27/2008 - 08:36
santthosh kumaar's picture

Re: "There is no proof is needed to

Santthosh
Hi mika,
Since, we limit our mind only to our physical entity, we are in doubt and confusion. The mind or 'I' is not limited to the physical entity alone. The mind is the whole experince of duality, which appears and disappears as waking and dream.When there is no mind then there is no experince. When there is no experince then there is no duality. The one, which witness the experince of duality, can remain with or without the experince of duality.That state of non -experince,we identify as deep sleep.

When in dream one is not aware of the Waking experince. In deep sleep one is not aware of neither waking, nor of the sleep. In Waking one is aware of dream and deep sleep.

Then what is it, that experienced the dream, when Waking entity is not present?

What is it, that knows the dream and deep sleep experiences?

When inquiry and reasoning revels the fact that 'I', is not the physical body, then, what is it, that experiences[witnesses], the three states, without the body?

With what the body functions as a person and perceives the world with in the Waking or dream? If body itself is self , it would remain immortal. Until one considers the body as self and views and judge the worldview, he will not be able to grasp the truth.

Master of non dual truth Nirakara said: truth cannot be grasped if one bases it on birth,life and death.

Advith master Vidyranya said: the truth will be reveled only when we analyze the three states.

Nisargdutta says: until one thinks the word is first and he is born in it afterwords, will not be able to receive the knowledge of the self.

The birth life and death are happening within the mind. To grasp the truth, one has to trace the formless witness of the three states, and realize the fact that the formless witness is the true self.

Since, it takes some time for you to understand, because we all are conditioned to view and judge the worldview on the base of physical body as self. The knowledge expounded in these blogs are based on formless base. Therefore, please go through my blogs, you will be able to understand what is been expounded in these blogs.

It is not possible to get the knowledge only by reading and hearing. And one has to have the intense urge, and ready to spend some time with patience. One has to indulge in lots of mental effort, through inquiry and reasoning and analyzes on the formless base, to get the firm conviction, that the true self is formless. Then only one will be able to view and judge the worldview on the base of the formless self. And be ever free from all the doubts and confusion forever. Once all the confusion and doubts are cleared then all hurdle and obstacles disappear the non dual destination becomes nearer.

Since you are highly advanced seeker, please think deeper and you will be able to grasp the formless entity from which you are able to function your self as mika.

Since physical body is not the experiencer of the physical body, what is it that that functions as physical body and perceives the world within the Waking or dream{mind].Without that formless entity they declare the physical body as dead.Then, What is it?

WITH LOVE AND RESPECT
SANTTHOSH

santthosh kumaar | Sat, 09/27/2008 - 11:55
Omkaradatta's picture

Why no proof needed...

"why there isn't a "proof" needed?"

Do you need proofs to know you exist? For that same reason, no proofs are needed to know about the formless subject. Subjectivity doesn't need proofs, it's self-evident. The only thing is to shift from believing one is the body to being 'undefined', not believing one is anything in particular.

http://www.omkaradatta.info

Omkaradatta | Sat, 09/27/2008 - 17:07
santthosh kumaar's picture

Re: why no proof is needed

Santthosh
Hi Omkaradutta,

You are right. I and you know it, but others need proper explanation. They need to think and assimilate what is been expounded in the blogs.
Take care
santthosh

santthosh kumaar | Sun, 09/28/2008 - 02:13
Omkaradatta's picture

It's worth noting

Most of the time when I post here, I speak not to the individual but the inner Sadguru. The individual poster with its likes, dislikes, preferences, desires, fears, etc. doesn't mean anything, only the Sadguru is befuddled, confused, painfully identified with body/thoughts and needs to have His doubts cleared before He resorb the self into the Self. So I speak mostly to That one.

It may not be preferable because I have to ignore desires, fears and preferences when speaking to the Guru.

http://www.omkaradatta.info

Omkaradatta | Sun, 09/28/2008 - 07:55
santthosh kumaar's picture

Re:It is worth nothing

Santthosh
All likes and dislikes, fears and desires are individual experince within the experince of duality[mind or waking and dream].The mind is myth.

When inquiry and reasoning revels that the self is not the physical body, then why to give any importance to individual physical attributes,such as birth, life and death, like,dislike,desires,fear,pain and pleasure,anger,love,ego and emotions, in pursuit of truth.

The physical attributes are part of the mirage or illusion. One can call the whole thing as illusion only on the base of the formless subject. The human attributes are mere illusion since the mind is an object to the formless self.

Therefore, it is necessary to know, what is mind? and what is substence of the mind? to unfold the mystery of the mind.
It is wrong to say the subject is worth nothing, but mind which is an object is worth nothing.Because without the subject the object is non-existent.

The self itself is guru, even if one has 100 gurus in the experince of duality, they are part of the mirage[mind]. The whole experince of diversity is created out of one single substence, therfore the whole experince of diversity is, mere illusion on the standpoint of the formless substence, which is the true self, and the real guru.

santthosh kumaar | Sun, 09/28/2008 - 16:21
Omkaradatta's picture

Re: Mind being myth

"All likes and dislikes, fears and desires are individual experince within the experince of duality[mind or waking and dream]. The mind is myth."

Yes, mind is just another words, a definition for 'something'. Really, only thoughts are there arising in the moment, not a continuous 'mind' stretching over time. However, it's a convenient reference when using words. We cannot utter the truth using words, it's impossible -- only some simulation of the truth.

"The self itself is guru, even if one has 100 gurus in the experince of duality, they are part of the mirage[mind]."

Yes -- that's what I've been saying. I speak to the Self, not the individual preferences, fears, likes and dislikes.

"The whole experince of diversity is created out of one single substence, therfore the whole experince of diversity is, mere illusion on the standpoint of the formless substence, which is the true self, and the real guru."

All the above is just more utterances, more words. Sit in total Silence and alert Peace, with no urge to go anywhere, do anything or think anything. Only that way will anyone see the Reality with utmost clarity. One is stuck in words otherwise.

http://www.omkaradatta.info

Omkaradatta | Sun, 09/28/2008 - 20:21