Shankara and Atheists

dattaswami2's picture

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Shankara and Atheists

To deal the teen-aged school students, psychology is more needed than the deep true divine knowledge. Shankara has to act as Guru than a scholar. The school-teacher is always given training in teaching based on psychology. The college-lecturer or University-Professor need not be trained in teaching because the students are grownup in grasping power. They become learned to grasp the truth and hence the depth in the knowledge of the preacher is more needed here. But in the level of school the talent in teaching based on the psychology of the teen-aged students with half knowledge, is more needed. Shankara acted more as Guru than the scholar, though He was the top most scholar. He made the atheists to accept the existence of God by twisting the true knowledge.

He established the existence of self to Buddhists who believed in existence of every thing as nothing (Shunya Vada). He made the followers of Purvamimamsa who already accepted the existence of self (Buddhists have already joined them in this aspect due to Shankara), accepted the existence of God since self is told to be God. If Shankara really means that self is really God, He did not add any extra point to Purvamimamsa except that He has named the self by another word God.

Trapped by this twist, the atheists climbed the first step (accepting the existence of God) from the ground. Now Shankara told the people on the first step that they should worship the Lord (Eshwara) to become God practically. This means Eswara is different from the soul, since the soul has to worship the Lord. He maintained this difference between the self and the Lord through the angle of relativity (Vyahara Dasha). At the same time, He consoled the atheists that they are already God in the absolute sense (Paramartha Dasha). This is the biggest twist made by Shankara to make atheists worship the Lord continuously and simultaneously maintained the attraction by the chocolate of child that they are God already! He maintained the twist for atheists and the truth for scholars simultaneously in the same doctrine. This shows that there can be no more genius other than Shankara.

If you analyze the above twist from the point of scholars to reveal the truth, you will be amazed to realize the truth simultaneously without disturbing the doctrine. If the soul is Brahman in the absolutely sense, it must be Eshwara simultaneously in the plane of relativity or creation. The same Brahman in the absolute plane became Eshwara in the reference to the world. Now the individual soul is in the world and has reference to the creation. If the soul is really Brahman in the absolute plane in which the reference to the world is absent, it should be Eshwara simultaneously with reference to the creation.

When the soul fails to be Eshwara in the world, how can it be Brahman beyond the world? A military colonel is the head of the military office. He is a soldier fighting with gun in the war. Unless he is soldier in the war, he cannot claim himself to be the head of the military office as colonel. If he fails to be a soldier in the war and cannot catch the gun, how can he claim to be the promoted colonel from the post of the soldier or head of the military office? The colonel or head of the military office must have the hidden potency of the soldier simultaneously.

Similarly, Brahman beyond the creation has the hidden potency of Eshwara, which is expressed as Eshwara in creation. When the potency is not expressed in creation, it must be concluded that the potency is absent and hence the soul must be called as Brahman without the potency of Eshwara. This means that the colonel lost the potency to act as a soldier in the war and then he is no more a colonel. The definition of Brahman in Veda and Brahma Sutras is only based on the concept of potency of Eshwara i.e., Brahman is that which creates, controls and destroys the world. The potency may not be inherent characteristic of Brahman because no inherent characteristic of Brahman can be known since Brahman (Parabrahman) is unimaginable.

In absence of knowledge of any inherent characteristic, you have to take the constantly associated characteristic i.e., the potency as Eshwara to be the only possible inherent characteristic of Brahman. Though the potency of Eshwara is the inherent characteristic of divine Maya, due to constant association of the divine Maya with Brahman, you have to take the divine Maya as the inherent characteristic of Brahman. Otherwise, if you say that the soul is the unimaginable Brahman, your soul must be unimaginable to you. If you say that the knowledge of self exists to self since the knowledge of Brahman exists to Brahman, the absence of the potency of Eshwara attacks your concept since the scriptures says that Brahman is the cause and controller of the world through divine Maya (Indromayaabhih… Veda).

Let yourself also control the world through divine Maya since we have no objection to you to use the same divine Maya in this world for giving us the proof. The same Brahman acting as Eshwara in the world controls the Sun through its constantly associated divine Maya (Bhishodeti Suryah… Veda). Then, the soul should also control the Sun through the same divine Maya in this world. But the soul is insulted by even the hot radiation of sun in severe summer.

At the Lotus Feet of His Holiness Sri Dattaswami

Anil Antony
Universal Spirituality for World Peace

bvam's picture

God is a Person

You will find in the Veda all answers to all questions. It is absolute knowledge.Vedavyasadeva was an incarnation of God, who transmitted this divine revelation for the world. Only Shankaracharya had the audacity to say that Vyasadeva was mistaken.
When Vyasadeva said that the Supreme is 'anandamaya bhyasat', that is full of transcendental pleasure, Shankaracharya dismissed the idea since it directly refers to a Person.

From our perspective if we are God then how is it that we have come under the spell of illusion or Maya? Some foolish people say that this is a pastime or 'leela' of God. But no, the material energy or Maya-shakti is expanded from the Absolute who remains unchanged. This Maya-shakti produces the material world of mundane energy-prakriti. The Jiva-shakti or individual spiritual energy is also expanded from the Supreme to produce the individual living beings who are expanded into 8,400,000 different species. God is like a touchstone, he can produce many changes in objects and always remain the same. 'Om Purnma Adaha Purnam Idam'.

If everything is one as the Mayavadis explain, then just ask them for their wallet. If they say no, then they are denying the fact that it is all one.

If we are all one then if any one soul realizes God, then we should all realize God simultaneously. The material energy is subordinate to God as the Lord explains in the Bhagavad Gita,' mayadakshena prakriti, suyate sa characharam'. This impersona Brahman is also under His control, 'brahmano hi pratishtaham', which is also from the Gita and the word 'pratishtaham' means that 'I estabish' or "I control' the impersonal feature of the Truth. If one reads the fifth verse of the 12th chapter of the Bhagavad Gita he will also see what God says about the impersonal path.

Om Tat Sat

bvam | Fri, 01/23/2009 - 23:17
dattaswami2's picture

Devotees Surpasses Advaitins

Devotees Surpasses Advaitins

The knowledge consists of three components (Triputi). 1) The goal 2) The soul 3) The path of the soul to please the goal. The knowledge of the world is not dealt separately because the knowledge of the soul itself is the knowledge of the world since the soul is a part of the world. When the devotees criticizes the knowledge, they should specify the component of the knowledge. The devotee cannot criticize the goal because the goal is God. The knowledge of God generates the attraction (devotion) to God. This component is spoiled by Advaitins who say that the soul in every human being is God.

In this component, the devotees are almost correct; who selected a particular energetic form like Narayana is only God. In the same way, if Advaitins says that a particular human being like Krishna is only God, the Advaitins are equal to the devotees. In such case, Advaitins can be even treated as greater devotees because they have selected the relevant human form rather than the irrelevant energetic form.

The devotees might have become Advaitins, had they told that every energetic form (Every angel) is God. Therefore, the devotees have surpassed the Advaitins in this component. But still in this component the devotees are not perfect. They have neglected the human form of God and are after the irrelevant (to the earth) energetic form. They are fixed to a particular energetic form only (like Narayana) and reject the other energetic forms like Shiva and Brahma. This violates the omnipotence of God to be in various forms simultaneously.

The second component is the soul or the world. For Advaitins the goal and soul are one and the same. For them only world without the soul is left over. The world is unreal for them. It is correct if the world is limited to Maya only. For the devotees the soul is a part of the world only. In this point also the devotees have surpassed Advaitins. The devotees say that the world is real and therefore the soul is also real. If every thing is real, where is the liberation? You should be liberated from unreal to attain the real.

When the soul is real like God, there is no need of liberation of the soul from the real world. A reality (soul) need not be liberated from another reality (world) to attain some other reality (God). If the world is confined only to Maha Maya and Mula Maya, the world is real. When the body disintegrates, only the form of the body is disappearing. The awareness (soul), the forms of the energy like light, heat etc., and the matter remain real. In this case even the feelings or thoughts (qualities) remain real accompanying the soul as Vasanas. The soul qualified by these feelings is Jeeva. Jeeva remains real after death, who travels to the upper world in the energetic body. This does not mean that feelings are real and can be treated as Maha Maya.

The feelings can be destroyed by the real knowledge and therefore the feelings are also Maya only like the form of the body. The devotee should cross this Maya with the help of knowledge given by God (Second chapter of Gita) so that the devotee is no more attracted by the world even if he comes out of the devotion for some time to take rest. In this aspect the Advaitins surpass the devotees who have analyzed the world correctly. But the Advaitains should remember that Maya is only unreal where as the other two (Maha Maya and Mula Maya) are real. Shankara says that the soul should get liberation from Maya only (Mayamayamidamakhinam Hittva….).

He gave the definition of the world as Nama and Rupa only. Nama is the name. Rupa is the form. The form of matter is pot. The form of awareness is feeling like love, cruelty etc. The pot, love, cruelty etc., are the names. Only Maya is to be discarded (Hittva). If you take the world as Maya, Maha Maya and Mula Maya, then the whole world is mixture of reality (Maha Maya and Mula Maya) and unreality (Maya) as per Shankara (Satyanrute Mithuni Krutya….). A mixture of reality and unreality can be neither stated as full real or as full unreal and is called as Mithya by Shankara (Sadasat Vilakshana…). All this is from the angle of the soul. From the angle of God (relative God) the world is real but unreal being negligible. A very little part of the primary energy is modified in to the world and thus it is very much negligible before the infinite ocean of primary energy charged by God. Therefore, for God also the world is Mithya since it is real but negligible.

Therefore, the devotees must accept the knowledge of Maya in order to protect their bond with God. Such knowledge of Maya acts like pesticide whenever Maya attacks the soul. The knowledge of God acts like water and fertilizer for the generation and growth of devotion-plant. The knowledge of Maya protects this plant from infection so that the plant becomes a strong huge tree. Thus, knowledge is generator like water, developer like fertilizer and protector like pesticide for the devotion-plant. It is only out of innocence the devotees criticize the knowledge. They can eliminate the impurity from the knowledge and use it properly for the overall development of devotion. The devotee is just like a seed without water, fertilizer and pesticide, if the knowledge is rejected. He cannot attain any fruit for his devotion-seed. Similarly, mere knowledge without devotion is the impossibility to get any fruit from water, fertilizer and pesticide.

At the Lotus Feet of His Holiness Sri Dattaswami

Anil Antony
Universal Spirituality for World Peace

dattaswami2 | Sat, 01/24/2009 - 02:58
Phroggy's picture


"From our perspective if we are God then how is it that we have come under the spell of illusion or Maya?"

You are not God, you're the illusion. Not only is the essence of God not a person, it doesn't think, and so 'it' has no concern as to whether it is experiencing illusion or not. Only the thinking expression has such concerns.

In the largest context, God and the experience of the illusion are not separate, and so it would be more accurate to say that God IS the illusion than to say God is experiencing it. This is the whole Oneness deally that you've dismissed with the infamous wallet argument.

Phroggy | Sat, 01/24/2009 - 11:57
Omkaradatta's picture

God, or illusion?

"You are not God, you're the illusion."

How's about 'both'? Illusion as 'separate self', God as its absence.

Omkaradatta | Sat, 01/24/2009 - 12:25
Omkaradatta's picture

How does that follow? (+ question for bvam)

"If we are all one then if any one soul realizes God, then we should all realize God simultaneously."

I don't see how that follows. More or less, God un-realizes us as a separate self. That does not mean God unrealizes *all of us* simultaneously.

Don't be fooled by the mind -- one cannot deduce the nondual truth, based on logic and reason. One can only let go of falsehood, and see what happens. It's just the way it is.

P.S. If God is a person, please describe Him... one can neither love nor worship an unknown personality. What are His likes and dislikes, needs and wants, desires and fears, opinions and ideas? Thanks for any info.

Omkaradatta | Sat, 01/24/2009 - 12:54
Phroggy's picture

Pretty fun stuff

Yes, Awakening is the ending of a delusion, and if it were a deluded person that was awakening, then we could say somebody Awakened and if that 'somebody' is really everybody, then we might question why everybody doesn't wake up. This is the problem with insisting on the reality of personhood.

The person IS the delusion, and so when the delusion dissolves, what remains to Awaken? What 'we' really are is also not a person amd is prior to thought, and so there is no entity that contemplates some state of Awakening or delusion. The delusion begins 'here' and ends 'here', while Awareness remains untouched, unchanged. This is why when the Awakening event happens, it's realized that what one is was never asleep, it's just the ending of the delusion of something that was asleep.

Phroggy | Sat, 01/24/2009 - 20:56