rockk65's picture

Average: 2.8 (5 votes)

Science alone will lead the humanity in the era of darkness.
Every thing labelled as mysterious and esoteric will be taken to the lab and tested for validity. May the lab be the human body or mind.

If there is soul, the will be a science to know it.
If there is GOD, there will be scientific methods to realise it................

Unni Chovan

nathan's picture

Impossible by definition

Nice wish but impossible by definition. Science is based on logic of the mind and input of the senses and thus limited to model and understand paranormal and metaphysical phenomena. There is existence beyond what is perceived by the senses and the laws of nature do not constraint themselves to the limited set of laws of the mind which for example do not allow paradoxes.

You regard science as a mighty sacred thing. Science is only a method to investigate things, that's it. Nothing more. This is not what will give us salvation at all.

See more in

nathan | Tue, 01/19/2010 - 09:47
rockk65's picture


Unni Chovan Jain

Dear brother,

What u think paradox today or miracle today will be reduced to just a fact tomorrow by science.

If the soul is a fact, it will be identified. If these senses are incapable, superior instuments will be made available..

My intention is not to make fun at saints or holymen
Science is a method to investigate and investigations only will give you salvation....

If you think some heavenly father will provide you salvation... then it is your faith....and good for you...

Is meditation not investigation ? Is Tapa not an expiriment being conducted by using one's body and mind ?

I view it as scientific study and you may be labelling it differently..
Budha asked his deciples to test and then only accept his teachings....
Let us be rational and with scientific temper

If non attachment is the precondition required for this investigation, let it be...
to work in nueclear labs one has to wear protective shields
To travel in space one wears speacial protective shields
But what I stress is the scientific approch....
Not blind faith....


rockk65 | Tue, 01/19/2010 - 10:29
nathan's picture

Can a blind man see?

"What u think paradox today or miracle today will be reduced to just a fact tomorrow by science."

Please read again - Science is a set of fixed axioms and conclusion rules based on senses' inputs. These do not change, these are the fundamentals of science. This is what science is and it cannot change - science accepted accepting and will accept whatever falls in these constraints. What is beyond is like vision objects for a blind man.

If there will one day be a fundamental change, it is that spirituality or occultism will turn to be the new "science" - the new religion of the secular minds.

nathan | Tue, 01/19/2010 - 13:28
rockk65's picture


Unni Chovan Jain


It seems as if you have been guided by an Indian Guru. It has become a fashion in India to say that science is a limitted company. Secience is not fixed and limitted.The church taught that the earth is flat and jailed the man who told that it is round and rotate around the sun.Even in India many so called spiritualits beleave and worship Sun as GOD. But through science we know that Sun is only a minor star which is dying..
If you read the yoga sutra of Pathanjali, there is nothing which is not scientific in it..
But our notion science is wrong at times.
Yoga is scientific
You associate science only with the five sences.
If we have a sixth sense, then that also will be utilised to investigate the secrets of Existense....

It is always through human efforts we achive something physical or spiritual....

Some study the various objects
Some study the subjuct.
Both are scientific
And both are scientists.
For studying the objects one uses the senses
For studying the subject one close the senses.
But both are doing investigation scientificaly.


rockk65 | Tue, 01/19/2010 - 13:58
happy's picture

Define science

He was not necessarily guided by Indian guru, what he tells you is indeed the truth about the premises and dogmas of science. You can find it in any book about the Philosophy of Sciences or learn it when you study exact sciences.

If you say that spirituality is a branch of science then I suspect that we may be talking about different meanings of the word "science". Could you define what you mean by "science"?

happy | Tue, 01/19/2010 - 18:50
rockk65's picture


Unni Chovan Jain

Dear Sir,

I understand science as the way living beings including humans experiment,do trials and come to conclutions with solid evidense.
There are animals which uses tools for hunting...

Also there is instinct by which living beings follow certains guidlines naturaly to survive and procreate.

Here Spirituality is related with evolution of living beings from human stage to further upwards.....

Every study we do wether inner or outer is based on evidence and results and not based on imagination and prejudices........

So I donot think it is necessay to divide science into inner and outer.
Once we are ready to leave the dogmas,rituals and blind faith and get ready to experiment the scientific journey starts

Thanks for your valuable observations and regards....


rockk65 | Wed, 01/20/2010 - 05:16
Gilana's picture

If the Mystics are right

If the Mystics are right (and by the way, science is slowly catching up in very small ways to what they have been saying for eons ie that what we think of as a solid is actually mostly just "empty" space).

If the Mystics are right, Spirituality is so vast, so infinite, so eternal that no human mind can hold any idea of what it may be. It is definately NOT only material, although it is an understanding of that, but it is a very, very small piece.

How do you propose to study something that is not made of mass and come up with with "solid evidence"?

Gilana | Wed, 01/20/2010 - 06:06
rockk65's picture


Unni Chovan Jain

Dear Sir,

From your reply I understand that you think whatever mind canot comprihend is beyond science.

Mind or senses are in no way a limitation for science.They are only instruments. But it is unfortunate that the so called scientists of today hesitate to use tools which are beyond Mind.

In India Yoga is called Yoga Sasthra.
Astrology is called Jyothis Sasthra.

And Sasthra means seience.

A man can venture into self investigation without becoming a deciple of any mystic though it may be helpful to share experiences.

It is for the ordinary folks who does not have the scientific approch, everything appears so mysterious....
If a man flies in tha air, he is thought to be performing something mysterious....
If a man walks on water, he is worshipped as incarnation of the so called GOD.
But a man with scientific approch will see the underlying principles behind every so called miracles...

A man with blind faith can become a devotee of some GOD..
Forget about the world and be in a state of ecstacy....

A man with sceintific approch also can forget about the world and venture into the self investigation and attain the result.

What we need is scientists without prejudices.
Scientists with pure intention to unravel the so called mysteries....


rockk65 | Wed, 01/20/2010 - 07:27
Gilana's picture

My Guru says...

My Guru asserts that there is an inner science which has been practiced for thousands of years by inner scientists called "mystics."

There conclusions span the decades. So if you define science as something you can see and touch...I think you are asking too much. But if you define science as that which is come to again and again, without bias or prejudice, but simply experimented with and come to by people in every country at every age, then I agree that Science is the way to know.

Gilana | Tue, 01/19/2010 - 23:10
rockk65's picture


Unni Chovan Jain
Dear sir,

I do agree with your opinion. It is not my intention to shout that science is true and religion is false.

I think religion is a false name given to science by vested interests to exploit the ignorant masses with their churches,temples and priests...

True religion is science and nothing else...........


rockk65 | Wed, 01/20/2010 - 07:32
Gilana's picture

It's funny

I think we are saying the same thing in different words.

Superstition of any kind does not lead to truth, it just leads to more dilemma. Unclear thought, any belief, unsubstatiated understanding...anything that is not brought about by personal experience (and that which is inculcated without bias) hinders rather than illuminates.

The words provoke and sometimes cloud. Truth is obtained by experimentation, whether it be in a lab with test tubes or by a human being attempting something new, beyond their current understanding.

My Guru has named with classes "Beyond Self Training" and has said specifically that it could also be called "Beyond Mind."

However you say it, you have to go beyond your own ideas to get to what is real.

The last thing I want to say to you is another point my Master makes: What the present day "Scientist" says is not the "truth" because it keeps and "better" discoveries are always happening.

What the Mystic says, any and every new understanding that that one makes is eternal. It never changes. Then science becomes worship.

I wanted to be a scientist once. I gave it up because I found the fastest way to truth, the instantaneous way to truth, without the training and schooling and memorization was to open myself to the truth. Then I knew.

Gilana | Wed, 01/20/2010 - 16:58
rockk65's picture


Unni Chovan Jain

I thank you for the inspiring discusion. I am from the oldest tradition of India called Sraman or Jain which is prevedic.We donot have the concept of a creator God.Also we beleave that not even a single atom can be either created or destroyed by any one.Existense without bigining and end.

From this back ground,I want to go further ahead to sceintific analysis on the basis of personal experiense of everything including the study of self.

What I have been told is that self only can study the self and mind canot.That does not make this study or investigation unsceintific..That ia my point


rockk65 | Thu, 01/21/2010 - 12:40
Gilana's picture


Thank you, Unni

I'm delighted with your point. :)

I noticed the "Jain" at the end of your name and associate it with a beloved master in my lineage. It is my "idea" that he would most enthusiastically agree with you.

Thank you, too. It is very enjoyable talking with you.

With love,

Gilana | Thu, 01/21/2010 - 17:19
mbnarayana's picture

As a student of science I

As a student of science I can say that the science believes that which can be experienced through five senses but the vedanthins call the self as above senses and mind.
Any how best wishes in your pursuit

mbnarayana | Sat, 01/30/2010 - 11:53
rockk65's picture


Unni Chovan Jain

Dear brother,

It is our habit to view the 5 senses as the only tools for science with which a scientist has to observe the reality.

But for a man who try to observe the owner of these five senses, the very act is scientific because he see and experienses the reality in full bloom.Therefore it is fully scientific though not using his five senses...

That is my point and along with it, it removes all the mysteries surrounding spirituality...

Thanks and regards

Unni Chovan

rockk65 | Sat, 01/30/2010 - 12:32
genep's picture

Science's road

Religion took mankind into the Dark Ages –
then science came along to make it appear
rock solid and certain.

Science can ONLY lead us on the SAME
that religion started.
– Really, Really; REALLY.

genep | Sun, 07/11/2010 - 14:48