Mind Games

Phroggy's picture

Average: 3.1 (7 votes)

Yes, the thoughts can easily be stopped...... And then what? There are many tricks and techniques to stopping the thoughts, and this may lead to a deep sense of peace and it may open the door to various mind states and supernatural experiences........and then what? How long does it last after the meditation is over? Does anything really change beyond the cataloging of spiritual accomplishments for the ego who has now proven to itself that it is firmly in control?

This is all a game of control that mind is playing with itself. Mind loves these accomplishments and woo woo states. It imagines itself progressing nicely along the spiritual path, and it will do this for decades before it recognizes the trap it has constructed for itself. The difficulty is that ego is in charge of the spiritual process designed to eliminate ego. In this, success will be declared at every turn, not to mark some progress (since there is nowhere to progress to) but to reinforce the mind's control and insure that the goal is NEVER accomplished.

Control requires a controller and a controlled. How many minds are there? Can it be seen how unnecessary it would be for mind to formulate a method to stop doing what it doesn't want to do in the first place, if in fact it doesn't want to do it? If mind wants to stop thinking it will quite simply stop. Clearly, it wants the experience of stopping temporarily as long as it's in control, and so it will return. Fact is, it never left. Mind was never absent or the controller would also be absent and this is intolerable to mind and it's priority of control.

Realizing all this conceptual, analytical, logical, pseudo-neo-Advaita bullshit is what really silences mind. Realizing the futility of mind controlling mind is what makes it stand down. Of course, the idea of actually realizing what's being done would be the end of mind's games, and so it must fight vigorously against this insight. It must destroy any semblance of the truth that it pretends to be seeking.

Quantum's picture

Very Nice

Thank you for this clarification, Phroggy. It clarifies what I have been trying to understand.

All this makes me wonder, though, has anyone, even the Buddha ever reached this so called "Enlightenment"? I admit, I sometimes think, yes, think, it is/was all in their minds. Just figments of the imagination. No matter how much one may think he/she, or how much others may think he/she is an enlightened master. One can always say, "Hey, it's all in your imagination." So, what gives with all this meditation bs?

What got me into meditation was an article I read from the Mayo Clinic about the health benefits of meditation, including stress reduction. And it's as if your post above provides for me the closure for my foray into the realm of eastern mystical magical mystery tour aspect. My reason for continuing to meditate is the same reason I got into it. Health benefits, and stress reduction, and relaxation.

Your post above further convinces me that I was fine where I was all along. I might start going back to church again, because believing in a personal God, is just as good/bad as any other path. For me, and for others I know, believing in a personal God, provides a certain "peace" and solace in life--a "someone" that one can go to for help, comfort, and peace, specially in times of trouble.

You have provided clarity for me again.

THank you for your post.


Quantum | Thu, 09/24/2009 - 21:22
Omkaradatta's picture

Enlightened master

> No matter how much one may think he/she, or
> how much others may think he/she is an
> enlightened master. One can always say,
> "Hey, it's all in your imagination."

What does one imagine an 'enlightened master' to be?

Enlightenment is freedom from both 'ignorance' and 'enlightenment'.

And then, what is there in one's imagination?


Omkaradatta | Fri, 09/25/2009 - 02:49
Quantum's picture

throws up papers in disgust

I don't know anymore. Nor, I really care, for it doesn't really matter. I think. Or not. Maybe. Maybe not. It's the same really, but not. What is there to be the same when all is the not not same, but yet smae, in a different sort of..well. same.

Oh, I don't know.

Thanks for reply anyway.

Quantum | Fri, 09/25/2009 - 04:33
Omkaradatta's picture


Sorry... didn't mean to throw anyone into confusion :-p.


Omkaradatta | Fri, 09/25/2009 - 04:44
Phroggy's picture

Yeah, there's nothing at all

Yeah, there's nothing at all wrong with meditation for stress relief, calming the mind, and learning good mental hygiene. The right sort of meditation, one that opens the door to intuitive insight instead of denying the importance of clarity and understanding in favor of mind states and temporary thought control, can be extremely beneficial. Aside from that, everyone needs to demonstrate for themselves the futility of a mind control practice.

It seems clear that Self realization is a potential, and that Buddha, et al. were Self realized, but obviously there are many subtleties. If living the truth of your Being is something you deeply desire, you may be in a better position than most to become 'accident prone'. Your openness and intuitive clarity and willingness to question everything you think you know are good assets. It seems there must also be a longing.

Phroggy | Fri, 09/25/2009 - 19:14
joejo's picture


Well I like this stuff of controller and the controlled. I just want to add another dimension here. Firstly, to study anything we must experiment and even put obstacle. I will give an example. A person may feel its no big deal to give up coffee. But unless he does so, he would not know what all is involved in it. We have all sorts of wrong notions.

Meditation has been the main stay of many traditions. Then there are many forms of meditation. The ego or the controller and the mind or controlled arise from the same matrix of conditioning, yet I would say that the I penetrates to the deeper layers of conditioning. Shankara the great Advaitic sage in his famous Treatise Vivek Chudamani or crown jewel of discrimination states that the pure I shines in the Intellectual sheath and it is the reflection of absolute in mind. He exhorts the renunciate to contemplate ( meditate) on this.

May I ask you if you are against Meditation in all forms of it in all traditions. Meditation when done rightly leads to purification of mind and has the sanction of Advaitic scriptures. I know of only one who was vehemently against it and that was J Krishnamurti.

joejo | Thu, 02/11/2010 - 14:49
Quantum's picture

"May I ask you if you are against Meditation in all forms..."

I was wondering the same thing.

Quantum | Thu, 02/11/2010 - 21:57
joejo's picture

Types of Meditation

Well Meditation to me is an exercise to improve attention. They say our mind is scattered and running away with thoughts all the time. As any student will know that we need to give our attention to a thing if we have to learn it. At times it is easier to do it and at times difficult. The seeker tries to develop this power of mind by training it in attention ( concentration)

Types of Meditation is defined by the subjects they choose. To choose an Image( Deity or Saint), focusing on breath, on light in the Heart or the formless spirit ( nondual absolute) are some of the forms of meditation. Inquiry Who am I or being aware is also a type of Meditation. Meditate means to ponder over the chosen subject. What is deliberate in the beginning and requiring effort becomes spontaneous or effortless.

joejo | Fri, 02/12/2010 - 00:10
Omkaradatta's picture

Nothing wrong...

Nothing wrong with techniques like 'stopping thoughts', although it seems absurd to foist such techniques upon others, e.g. "you MUST try this, just try it, quit your intellectualizing"... etc.

If the root of the issue has been addressed, and/or has dissolved, one need not tend to the branches -- because there are none.

If not, keeping the branches well-trimmed can help keep flies away, and impress one's neighbors besides ;-).


Omkaradatta | Fri, 09/25/2009 - 02:33
Omkaradatta's picture

P.S. delusion

P.S. yes, people are under the delusion that there's a controller and a controlled, a looker and a looked-at.

It's as though interacting with others leaves a sort of "after-image" or charge... "me and you" becomes "me and my self" when I'm alone. But of course, there cannot be two in the same location.

The moment two becomes one, one becomes none -- because "one" cannot separate from itself to see itself. The "looker and the looked at" become "the looker *is* the looked-at", which was the real situation the whole time, and so there is neither looker nor looked at.

And the whole idea of controlling the mind becomes moot.


Omkaradatta | Fri, 09/25/2009 - 04:01
dhorai's picture

a parable answer like christ.

the jupiter ever expanding like telescope has beeja mantra "shreem" but it is also the bija mantra of sukra or mahalakshmi's venus...

now b6y sin of time or precedence jupiter is father of venus and heavily tackles "mahalakshmi is fooled by cancer game instead of true actual support to kumaran the master...

now what to do...

kumaran's vivek must stroke the "hotel licker " in such a way that he enters samadhi called "death to science"

i do not say this awaits phroggy...really really really...


let kumaran's parents undrestand their ploy in universal justice...with pain ...dhorai.

with love

dhorai | Fri, 09/25/2009 - 05:20
Phroggy's picture

Yeah, it seems folks aren't

Yeah, it seems folks aren't in the mood to ask or answer questions, but if they were a good one to start with might be, 'How many people are inside your head anyhoo?' If the answer is 2 or more, go to a doctor and have all but one of them surgically removed so that the game can at least be simplified. This alone throws all the doingness and internal conflict and control into question. Who's controlling what? Who's wanting to do something other than what mind is doing?

The next question might be, 'Who or what is it that is observing this mind, and can it be what it is observing?' what the heck is it that is watching mind play it's mind games? If answering that question becomes another process of logic and reason and thinking,(As the projections would suggest) it will be useless.

Phroggy | Fri, 09/25/2009 - 19:50
sonti's picture

Then what is the mind game

"Then what?" is a question of the mind. This is precisely the mind game.

There is no then what. Not even a single one. No logic-based conclusions, no beyond and no beyond the beyond, there are no uniformed aims, no desire for enlightenment. This is precisely the mind game.

sonti | Fri, 09/25/2009 - 07:13
Omkaradatta's picture

Partially true

Making thought/logic the enemy is also a mind game. What is the mind an enemy to? The mind. What else could have a problem with the mind?

And so he's right, the mind wants to control the mind.


Omkaradatta | Fri, 09/25/2009 - 07:34
Phroggy's picture

If letting go of ignorance

If letting go of ignorance (false knowledge) is a goal, and I'm not assuming it is for you, then refusing to use the mind, to contemplate, to question, serves only to hold that ignorance in place since it is no longer challenged. This is the mind game. You would have the mind go numb in order to stop the pointless thinking that you've experienced. A mind that is denied is a tool that becomes a master by default; it's movements never questioned because the questioning has ceased. Better to learn how to use the mind properly.

"No desire for enlightenment" is a mind game, as you form that into a method to accomplish enlightenment.

Phroggy | Fri, 09/25/2009 - 19:32
dhorai's picture

yogah chitta vrtta nirodaha!

we must as yoga says try to go to
thoughtl;ess awareness again and again beyond any thought processes...thats the purport...

other than thoughtless awareness the mind does other things... duly which has to be stopped...

read yoga sutras 1:-5 duly...

with love

dhorai | Tue, 09/29/2009 - 12:56
davids's picture

Words of wisdom

I must admit: this is the first time I read something of yours and understand what you mean and am impressed and agree with every word.

You see? you can if you want! you just need to take the pills or maybe not take them :-) just kidding!


davids | Tue, 09/29/2009 - 17:45