Awareness did not exist before creation

dattaswami2's picture

Average: 3.5 (2 votes)

Awareness did not exist before creation

You can say ‘the awareness of God’ but you cannot say that God is awareness. The reason for this is that the awareness observed in living beings is a form of inert energy working in nervous system. Before the creation, space cannot exist, since space is the first item of creation, which is the first subtle form of inert energy. Therefore, before creation neither materialized nervous system nor inert energy can exist. In such case, the generation of awareness is unimaginable. Even if you assume that the awareness was generated from some unimaginable source, the awareness, which is a work form of inert energy, cannot exist before creation. Since space is the first form of inert energy, in the absence of space, there cannot be existence of inert energy. If the inert energy was absent before creation, how can you say that awareness, which is a form of inert energy existed before the creation? In such case, you have to conclude that both the source of awareness and awareness itself are unimaginable. Instead of two unimaginable items, it is always better to say that one unimaginable item existed. Then, the conclusion is that the unimaginable source (God) existed and His will, which is awareness, must be the first form of inert energy that was created even before the space. But, without space, inert energy can never exist. Since space is needed for the waves to propagate or for the fundamental particles of inert energy, which alone is transformed into awareness or will.

To avoid the two unimaginable items, even if you say that the unimaginable God Himself is the unimaginable will or awareness, then also, your purpose is not served, since the unimaginable awareness cannot be the imaginable awareness that is seen in the living beings. Moreover, when you say that something is unimaginable, how can you say that it is awareness or inert? Hence, there is no other way than to say that one unimaginable item, which cannot be qualified by terms like awareness or inert created the space directly. Therefore, Veda says that the unimaginable God created the space directly (Atmana Aakashah…).

But Veda says that God wished to create the world. Such statement can be taken in view of the general procedure seen in the world, which is adopted for the sake of convenience of understanding by human beings. Veda also says that the unimaginable item (God) created the space or energy directly (Tat tejo asrujata…). Once the space is created, which is the first form of inert energy, the procedure of the creation is a routine process as described by Veda regarding the creation of air etc. after space. In this procedure, the last item that was created was awareness from the food (Annat purushah). You cannot bring this awareness even before food and not to speak of bringing the awareness even before the generation of space.

Now there are two items. One is the unimaginable God and the other is imaginable world which includes awareness as the final product. The generation of the world from God is also unimaginable, since there is no similar example of unimaginable generating imaginable in the world. From space onwards, we have only the imaginable generating another imaginable and any link between two imaginable items is imaginable. Therefore, Veda says that the link between space (Mahat) and God (Purusha) is unimaginable (Avyaktam) as seen in the statement “Mahatah paramavyaktam, avyaktaat purushah paraha”.

happy's picture

Of course awareness existed

Of course awareness existed before creation.

Creation never existed. How could you speculate about creation when you can't say anything about what was before creation.

And even if creation did happen, where do you think it could happen other than in awareness. Whatever is out of awareness by definition never existed.

happy | Sat, 10/24/2009 - 10:55
dattaswami2's picture

Awareness in the creation does not exist independently hence it

Awareness in the creation does not exist independently hence it is not God

Awareness in the creation does not exist independently since it is always a generated item by the combined operation of respiratory, digestive, and the nervous systems. Charvaka or science should be respected in this point. The cause or the quality of the cause should be an independent item and should not be a generated item. The individual soul is a bit of awareness is neither the total God nor is the part of the God. The unimaginable power of creation or control of the universe by God is neither totally seen nor partly seen in any individual soul. In the ancient days awareness was thought to be an independent item due to lack of scientific knowledge. But now science has clearly proved that awareness is only an item of creation and not the creator. Thus science cannot prove the nature of God directly but can prove the nature of any item of the creation as the non-God item as in the case of awareness.

At Thy Lotus Feet His Holiness Sri Dattaswami

Anil Antony
Universal Spirituality for World Peace

dattaswami2 | Sat, 10/24/2009 - 14:31
happy's picture

Circular argument

You just assume that awareness does not exist independently and based on your assumption "proves" what you assumed, that it didn't exist before.

happy | Sat, 10/24/2009 - 17:07
gentlyok's picture

Not Knowing

For me, I only know what I have experienced. I have discovered surrender happens when I stopped "believing" in another's understanding or what is written in a book. Instead I trust what I experience and dared to just not know the rest. A deeper trust in the perfection appears. I experience a love that seems to have no limits in it's expanse. From that place one can think with the heart and rest in the stillness. It is a consuming love affair. I would have to be in my mind care which came first, awareness or creation. This love is all there is.
Only this love!

gentlyok | Sat, 10/24/2009 - 16:06
dattaswami2's picture

Your bonds matters

There are four strong bonds, which hinder the spiritual progress.

1) The bond with the wife

2) The bond with the money

3) The bond with the child

4) The bond with ones body and life.
Among the three bonds the strongest bond is the bond with the children. The wife can help in the spiritual effort (Sadhana) and therefore she is called as ‘Saha Dharma Charini’. The sex, which is a biological need, is a matter of attraction of few minutes or at the maximum few hours. This little time is negligible compared to the long lifetime and the energy dedicated to the Lord. But the bond with the children persists in all the times and requires the expenditure of the energy continuously. The Bond with the money also increases due to this bond with children. For the sake of the children people become currupt and try to rob others. In such process they are doing lot of injustice. The strength of this bond is reduced by realization and with this not only the individual salvation in the upper world is achieved, but also the justice in this world can be easily established. This is the reason why the Lord spoke about the detachment of worldly bonds for the establishment of the justice. He says that He is born to establish the Justice, but He does not speak about the rules of the Justice. The Government, Police and even the courts quote the rules of Justice, which cannot establish the Justice. People are trying to misinterpret these rules and win the case. In Gita the Lord attempted for the detachment of these bonds, which are responsible for the injustice. He attacked the problem at the basic level. Therefore, the strength of the bond with the children is proportional to the injustice in the world. This bond also hinders the spiritual elevation. Unless the strongest bond is cut, salvation is impossible. Without the salvation, the single bond with the Lord is impossible. You can analyze Vyasa, Arjuna and Dhritaraashtra who are representing the three above average, average and below average levels.

Vyasa is the highest Guru and his birthday is celebrated as Guru Purnima. The divine prostitutes who are of the lowest level mocked such a highest Guru due to this strongest bond. Vyasa was running after his son and was mocked. He was not mocked for his bond with the divine lady called ‘Gritaachi’ because it was just a temporary bond for few minutes. She gave birth to ‘Suka’ through whom Vyasa had permanent bond for twenty years. For the sake of wife he wasted only few minutes but for the sake of son he wasted twenty years. Arjuna was also bound by this strongest bond. He was killing all his relatives on the order of the Lord. He was prepared to leave the kingdom, but when his son Abhimanyu died, he stopped the war. The war is the work of the Lord to punish the evil people. Therefore, the bond with the Lord is not stronger than the bond with his son. The Lord performed the surgery and broke this strongest bond by killing even the other children (Upa Pandavas). The Lord wanted to lift Arjuna. Bhagavatgita was the medicine, which could not work to break the strongest bond. Therefore, the Lord performed the surgery and lifted Arjuna and other Pandavas also as they surrendered to Him. The Lord lifted Vyasa by preaching him through the divine prostitutes. For Vyasa the medicine was sufficient but for Arjuna surgery was required. Since Vyasa and Pandavas are His devotees, the Lord did everything for their upliftment. Dhritarashtra is not a devotee. He knows that Krishna is the Lord. He saw the Viswarupam. He advised his sons to arrange a feast and attract the Lord to help them. He tried to grab the wealth of his own brother Pandu who only conquerred the whole kingdom. When Pandu went to the forest, Dhritaraashtra was made the representative of the king. He became blind with this strongest bond and did not mind to do injustice to the son’s of his own brother. The whole wealth actually belongs to his brother. If he passes an order as a king, his son cannot hinder it. He has the support of Bhishma. Bhishma took an oath that he will protect the king. Therefore he need not fear for his son. His wife Gandhari found fault always with her husband and her sons, but at the last when her children were killed she gave the curse to Lord Krishna forgetting that He is the Lord. Such is the strength of this illusory bond! Today Dhritaraashtra represents people. People are trying to earn the money for the sake of their children and they are prepared to do injustice to any extent for this. Like Dhritaraashtra they want to please the Lord by worship to help their children. Therefore, if the Sadhaka can cut this strongest bond all the other two bonds can be easily cut.

Gopikas represent the state of a real Avadhoota. In the absence of Krishna, they forgot all the biological needs of the body and they jumped into the fire when they heard that Lord Krishna left the body. They only could cut the bond with their bodies and bond with their lives also. The Lord could cut their bonds by dancing with them, by attracting their children to do mischief and by stealing their butter. By the dance in Brindavanam (Raasakeli), the husband-wife bond was cut. Their own children stole butter on the order of Krishna and due to this the mother-child bond was cut. By giving butter to Krishna, which was their hard-earned wealth, their bond with money was also cut. Like this Gopikas only could cut all the bonds and achieved the highest grace, which is the fifteenth upper most world called Goloka. In the case of Hanuman, he fought with the Lord for the sake of his mother to protect king Yayathi. Therefore Bhagavatam, which contains the story of the Gopikas at the end is the most sacred scripture, which could give salvation to Pareekshith in seven days. The very first verse of Bhagavatam speaks about this strongest bond of Vyasa. The love in these worldly bonds can be cut only by the love on the Lord. A diamond can be cut only by another diamond. These bonds with human beings can be cut only by the bond with the Lord in the form of human being only. The bond with formless God, or the bond with a form in the upper world like Vishnu and Siva, or the bond with a statue or a photo cannot cut your family bonds. These are stones, which fail to cut the diamond.

Gopikas could cut these human bonds by their bond with Lord Krishna who is in the human form only. Your question is very important because it deals with the actual journey towards the goal. For us neither the analysis of goal nor the analysis of a soul is so important as the analysis of the path and journey. The goal can be realized even after reaching it and need not be known now itself. Since the soul is travelling towards the goal, the soul is already not the goal. This one point is sufficient regarding the soul. All the concentration is to be put up on the analysis of the real path and the mode of the journey.

At Thy Lotus Feet His Holiness Sri Dattaswami

Anil Antony
Universal Spirituality for World Peace

dattaswami2 | Sun, 10/25/2009 - 03:15
Malini's picture


This swami is not thinking, neither meditating, very bookish, that too the earlier part of Hindu Scriptures. He says he cannot incarnate because the doors of Islam is closed. In Christianity they expect the second coming of Jesus. Therefore he can incarnate only in Hinduism, or India as the Gita says. If god cannot open the closed door of Islam and give a new and fresh understanding to Christians, what sort of god is that? This swami says god has greater power and even water can be used to burn things. If that is the power of god, why can’t god incarnate in Arabia or America? Swamiji you need to meditate

Malini | Tue, 03/23/2010 - 23:34
gentlyok's picture

There is another bond that

There is another bond that may well eventually get in the way of ones liberation. That is the attachment to limited understanding. Many years ago I heard Swami Muktananda describe a wheel. The spokes of the wheel were different paths, various traditions. All the spokes lead to the same place. As one gets closer to the center one discovers that, in essence, all traditions are saying the same thing. All one needs to do is read the poetry of many mystics of different traditions to appreciate this. Near the rim however, we learn the practices and try to understand what the saints and sages are saying. It is also common to perceive that one's path is the only true path. We move further down the spoke using the practices and become more attuned to the silence within and crack open our hearts. It may become an experience, therfore clear, that there is no inside and outside.
Once a swami gave me a great gift by saying to me."What makes you think that God will take the form you want him to take". I realized that I had to dare to not know. My bond to my concepts was now getting in the way. Surrender is sweet.

gentlyok | Wed, 03/24/2010 - 11:51