What is Enlightenment?

joejo's picture



Average: 4 (4 votes)

All of us in this forum are taking some sort of spiritual journey. I thought it would be educating to know what one means by Enlightenment.

One more important point is whether it is sudden or gradual.

Also how can one verify it.



JacobMouni's picture

Personally I choose not to

Personally I choose not to ever use the word enlightenment. I find it encourages the mind to action which by its very invocation brings one into egocentric experience. The very antithesis of "enlightenment".

Sudden or gradual, well that's at the experience of the individual. When did the divine in you take notice of the divine external? In this life what gets you to where you are headed? A sudden revelation? A slow and steady approach? When you weren't in this body trust that you knew how to set up a life that would yield the experiences you desired.

Again, verification by its very act makes the question moot. You question to identify with the intellectual concept of "enlightened". But remember, you are no more the body of a thought/concept than you are a body of flesh. Best just to keep quiet and let the Self verb away :D

JacobMouni | Sat, 02/06/2010 - 06:21
joejo's picture

Enlightenment & Experience

You seem to suggest that egocentric experience cannot be enlightenment. Ane not all experiences egocentric or at least contaminated by our self(ego).

Yet we do put a definite event like in the life of Maharshi Ramana or Buddha as indicating enlightenment.

How we as sincere aspirants not diceive ourselves and hence the questions about verification of enlightenment.

joejo | Sat, 02/06/2010 - 06:34
Annie's picture

Realization

There was once such an interesting discussion at http://www.gurusfeet.com/blog/enlightenment.

And also in http://www.gurusfeet.com/forum/true-guru.

I think the classical piece in http://www.gurusfeet.com/forum/cheat-sheet-recognize-bogus-guru though speaking on how to recognize a true guru actually speaks about what enlightenment really is.

Annie | Sat, 02/06/2010 - 14:50
B-friend's picture

Great Question

It's been spoken that even cosmic consciousness is not knowing the Self. So on one hand, one may be enlightened to their Highest Truth, yet remain ignorant of the Self.

B-friend | Sat, 02/06/2010 - 18:22
B-friend's picture

Also...

...When reading Ramana, He speaks of Sphuranas, or manifestations of the Self, that one experiences. As spoken by him, Sphuranas precede realization. I'm almost certain many teachers have experienced these manifestations and thought it their "enlightenment" and then allow ego to resume so that they may fulfill their desires of being teachers, or quite innocently, of being of service.

I think it also be important to understand that the Self is always right here and now and with you and not in some far off place. The thinking that it is way over there somewhere is still a habit of mind. That's not to say one shouldn't seek the disciplines that are helpful for realization and then final dissolution of ego into Self, but, the habit of mind that it is so far from us, or that we are too weak, unworthy, or whatever the case may be, are the habits of mind that make it so difficult for realization or awakening to occur anytime any place for any reason.

B-friend | Sat, 02/06/2010 - 18:36
joejo's picture

Aham Sphurna Prelude to Enlightenment

B-Friend I am impressed with your post so am taking liberty of writing this. Since you are already connected to Ramana Maharshi there is nothing to worry as he said that as a deer cannot escape from the jaws of a tiger similarly the ego cannot stand the light of a great sage.

Ramana Maharshi spoke very highly of this state and compared this to realisation itself. Moreover, having reached this state there is nothing else to do as that which seeks is the ego itself. The stage of I AM is the stage of true individuality and Ramana Maharshi said that the total dissolution depended on Grace. He also mentioned elsewhere that the state of realisation was dependent on Sages Prarabdh or the residual momentum of force of Karma(actions or impressions prior to realisation). There are various states the highest of it being Brahmn Vashisth. His state of mind is indescribable called Turgaya. There is not much use for us to discuss this but I merely mention this to elucidate a point.

Saints who have reached this stage of Aham Sphurna are rare and deserve our utmost respect. We have to be very careful about illusions. That is why I started this discussion on Enlightenment. Though it can never be reached through concept yet we should be able to understand the true import of the pointers given by Sages or Sciptures.

joejo | Sun, 02/07/2010 - 14:53
B-friend's picture

The Tiger's Jaws

I like this metaphor. Maybe only then is it understood what "surrender" means or "there is no hope".

______________________

Here's an excerpt from "Who Am I" containing this metaphor. I also like the other points he makes.

>>>20. Is it not possible for God and the Guru to effect the release of a soul?

God and the Guru will only show the way to release; they will not by themselves take the soul to the state of release. In truth, God and the Guru are not different. Just as the prey which has fallen into the jaws of a tiger has no escape, so those who have come within the ambit of the Guru’s gracious look will be saved by the Guru and will not get lost; yet, each one should by his own effort pursue the path shown by God or Guru and gain release. One can know oneself only with one’s own eye of knowledge, and not with somebody else’s. Does he who is Rama require the help of a mirror to know that he is Rama?<<<

B-friend | Sun, 02/07/2010 - 16:30
Quantum's picture

Mind trips. Imagation.

I think that's all that is.

Just be Present, without anxiety about the next moment, and without holding to what happened in the past.

Quantum | Thu, 02/11/2010 - 01:39
joejo's picture

Being in the Present

Hi Quantum,

I fully understand what you mean and being interested in these things what you say must be out of some discovery of yours. But allow me to differ and we could exchange notes.

On this subject I had written a blog yesterday and here is the link http://www.gurusfeet.com/blog/being-present-myth

My take is that we are caught in concept. We are merely arguing my concept is better than yours. Are not all concepts equally useless. Description is not the described. I mean word is not the fact or the thing it claims to describe.

Mind is movement and can it be observed in such a subtle way, Without the Center , that living becomes a dynamic thing beyond the concept and theories.

Our self or the ego is a static thing and cannot keep pace with ever changing life or reality. To do that we have to understand the pettiness of thought and this me or self.

joejo | Thu, 02/11/2010 - 02:56
Quantum's picture

Meditate

Either suddenly become "enlightened". Just like that.

Or...meditate more. In time, perhaps several months, you will start to be in a space where your questions no longer matter. It's not so much that your questions will be answered as that they will no longer matter. And then when you're there and you think about it, you will lose it. Meditate more.

You will enter a space wheren coincidences and things seem to just "work out." If you become proud, you will lose it. If your ego jumps in and takes credit with pride, you will lose it. Just go back and meditate more.

You questions will start to go away. Then you will have bigger questions. Just keep meditating. Those too will go away. Then you will find yourself back where you started. Sometimes in the same place, sometimes at a higher level. Just meditate more.

And eventually, you...

just meditate more.

Just meditate.

Be Still. Enjoy quiet solitude and peace. And tranquility.
Jump into the world, and hang with your homies, and rock on, make noise, and you will lose it. It's a balance. But staying centered, seems to make things work out anyway. So, somehow it doesn't really matter where you are. Learn to stay centered. Use a heuristic device for cognitive centering if you want. Mine is the feel of each footstep while I walk. The feel of my feet, or my hands, or the feel of each fingertip with each keystroke, while sitting at the keyboard. Anything "feeling" in the present moment that doesn't require big thinking. A sound (om nama shiva ya om). Aaaa. MMMMMM....om pani padme hummmmmm. Or just feel what you feel, but stay on that. When thoughts come, stay with your drone...your neutral object of focus. You'll get a glimpse. THen immediately lose it.

Keep meditating.

Quantum | Thu, 02/11/2010 - 06:02
joejo's picture

Keep Going

That's beautifully put. We have to keep up our endavours. One has to walk the path where ones Heart is and if one is Sincere he/she would find results.

Seek and ye shall Find.

Thanks

joejo | Thu, 02/11/2010 - 06:48
joejo's picture

Meditation and Enlightenment

Meditation is only considered to be an indirect cause of enlightenment. It so to say creates a climate for enlightenment to occur or shall we say makes you more accident prone for such an event.

But as there is a dawn before the sun comes out there are intimations of immortality to borrow a poetic phrase. I thought we could discuss these because speaking in metaphors like dissolving the ego etc don't make much sense unless we want to be satisfied with words.

What is the road map or pointers to Enlightenment?

joejo | Fri, 02/12/2010 - 03:37
Quantum's picture

My meditation teacher would say....

...that's all thought.

Too much thinking. Lost in thought. Consciousness consumed by and identified with thinking. Questions only lead to more questions; philosophical discussions go deeper and deeper into nowhere, because that's how the mind entertains itself and keeps itself fed and very much alive and in full possession of the deeper, non-mental, Pure Consciousness that is "Y"ou. The real Me. The One Pure Consciousness that permeates all life and all things. There is no division at that level. It just Is.

Just be still and silent for a while and enjoy it. Listen to the beat of your own heart. I mean the music inside that stillness. In the car, when driving alone, I keep the radio off, because I prefer to "enjoy" the music inside myself than to hear the noise on the radio. (Classic jazz is okay though.) When walking I "feel" each footstep. If a thought tries to intrude, I feel each footstep even more strongly. When more thoughts try to force their way in, and consume my attention, I go back to feeling each footstep. I try to stay "awake" for as long and as often as I can--rather than to be "lost" in thought. Nisargaddta says, "Do not Harbor thoughts."

You only need thoughts to do practical things. Find your keys. Get your work done, etc. The rest is noise.

Quantum | Fri, 02/12/2010 - 04:15
joejo's picture

Transformatition of Ego

I wrote this blog to show the way and progress towards the goal

http://www.gurusfeet.com/blog/transformation-ego

While I do not disagree with your Guru I merely wish to point out that sometimes these become ways in which we hide ourselves.

Yoga was thought to be a precise science and all the road signs on the way are clearly given in that. My Idea was not to indulge in speculation or philosophy but to come out of it and discuss details.

joejo | Fri, 02/12/2010 - 04:51
Quantum's picture

Just do it.

By the way, he was just a guy teaching meditation free meditation classe I attended for a few months. I do not have a guru except for my own intuition.

This is fun, it's food for the mind. While I maintain this is indeed an indulgence of mind, i'm rather enjoying it. Why not, eh? Riding a roller coaster is a lot of fun. It has no practical value in the real business of life, but I indulge in riding one whenever I can get around to it.

Have fun.

:)

Quantum | Fri, 02/12/2010 - 04:58
joejo's picture

Enlightenment & the Physcical Transformation

One of the important feature of enlightenment as told by sages is the physical transformation that accompanies it. Jiddu Krishnamurti spoke about the mutation in the brain cells and Ramana Maharshi spoke about a Nadi (subtle nerve current) that rises from heart the true seat of Self and reaches the brain. This he said resulted in constant Bliss and the mind slowly dissolved in this bliss.

So enlightenment does not culminate in intellectual comprehension and certainty as some Advatist will have us believe.

joejo | Fri, 02/26/2010 - 15:01
Quantum's picture

Rewired for higher cruising altitude.

So basically, with a prolonged practice of meditation the brain becomes rewired for a higher cruising altitude. With repetition, you develop new synaptic connections that "etch" deeper and deeper...with repetition.

I heared an interview on Ophrah, with Dr. Jon Kabat Zinn, I believe it was, where it was mentioned that a study done on monks who had thousands upon thousands of meditation practice behind them (10 - 50 thousand hours) revealed that they had brains that were significanlly different from the average non-meditator.

Let's see, 15-30 minutes a day, for 9 months, gives me a little over...oh my gosh 4050 hours! Within 18 more months, I'll have 10 thousand hours behind me.

Better start meditation, broh.

Close your eyes. Put ALL you attention back on your drone whenever you notice a thought come.

Quantum | Fri, 02/26/2010 - 21:17
Quantum's picture

Miscalculated...

I'm a doof.

9 months X (roughly) 30 days X 15 minutes = roughly

4050 minutes. Not hours.

That explains a lot.

Better start meditating.

Quantum | Fri, 02/26/2010 - 21:19
joejo's picture

Quantum Jump

I think the progress is not linear but at times there may be a quantum jump. JK said that energy not allowed to escape if a person sticks to what is ( say sorrow)results in mutation.

Ramana Maharshi said that ego is a mixture of chetan
(conscious) & jada (matter) & the process of inquiry brings about a change in the proportion to more & more conscious. The Nadi (nerve current) is blocked but when it opens up the direct link is established.

I just wanted to point out that its not a intellectual change only.

joejo | Fri, 02/26/2010 - 23:34
Quantum's picture

I believe you.

I was agreeing with your post.

Oh, by the way, Eckart Tolle says Ego is Consciouness identified with the mind.

So, there you have it.

Quantum | Sat, 02/27/2010 - 00:31
joejo's picture

Enlightenment

The ego matures and finds the futility of the normal course of action, moved by pain, sorrow and discontent searches for a remedy which is known as seeking. Now it is clear that the seeker is the Ego. The solution to is found by the Ego when it discovers another principal higher and superior to it and realises in the process its limitation and either dissolves or takes a subordinate role to something that is beyond it.

While there may be a further possibility of development but this realisation of the Ego is termed as Enlightenment and is a radical change in the Psyche.

joejo | Sun, 02/28/2010 - 14:06
Quantum's picture

Western Christianity

"...the Ego ...discovers another principal higher and superior to it and realizes in the process its limitation and ...takes a subordinate role to something that is beyond it."

In my opinion this describes Western Christianity. The ego takes a subordinate role so a higher Principle it calls "God", or "Jesus", or "Holy Spirit."

Good work.

"While there may be a further possibility of development... this realisation of the Ego is termed as Enlightenment and is a radical change in the Psyche."

I agree on the possibility of further development. But I don't call this realizing "Enlightenment." The "realization of the ego" as you describe it would be like me realizing this is a place known as New York, though I have never been there.

Enlightenment to me, would be like actually being in New York. Not just knowing about it second hand.

Quantum | Sun, 02/28/2010 - 21:13
joejo's picture

The True I

Some say that dissolution of Individuality is enlightenment. There can be no doubt that this is like extinction of extinction(Fana-Al-Fana) of the Sufi. Yet Gazzhali maintains I AM as the first station of those who have attained.

Certainly the state I mentioned is even lower than this where the ego has a subordinate role to this I AM or God if the approach is one of Devotion.

This could also be termed as surrender which is the ninth stage of devotion (Navadha Bhakti) called Atmanivedana Bhakti which is the highest rug of devotion.

joejo | Mon, 03/01/2010 - 05:14
Quantum's picture

Devotion...

"...where the ego has a subordinate role to this I AM or God if the approach is one of Devotion."

Yeah.. I think Devotion was the path used by Jesus. Bhakti, yoga, if I understand that term correctly.

Interesting though that somewhere in the Gita, I really don't remember chapter and verse, but Arjuna asks Krishna which path is the best path, and I was surprised to find that while Krishna said they were all good, the path of Devotion (interestingly enough, the path I believe practiced by Christians) is the easiest and quickest path to union with God. This really surpised me. I mean, really. Big time. Because I'm a Christian. Heck I was even an altar boy ("serverss" now) by choice, because I new I wasn't cut out to be a Priest, though I once toyed with the idea. And that was was close enough to the cloth for me.

But I've come to realize, unknowingly, that devotion has implicit in it ...separation. There was always separation in it for me. No matter what. There was always egoic me, and The Lord whom I loved and adored very much. And that's the way it was.

Eastern Mysticism, to me, is about transcending the mind and identification with the mind, ego, completely.

As Rumi (I think it was) said, I heared the Lord knocking and knocking on my door. I opened it, and what did I find? It was me knocking from the inside.

Quantum | Mon, 03/01/2010 - 05:52
joejo's picture

Thinker & Thought

Some say that mind is nothing but a bundle of thought and I thought is nothing but another thought All conflict arises when this thinker who is another thought tries to control thought.

So there is no effort ( or conflict) after one has realised that thinker is thought and there is no other I. This leads to gathering of energy and quietening of mind. It is also the death of the ego which survived by posing as an independent entity.

This could also be termed enlightenment.

joejo | Mon, 03/01/2010 - 15:34
Quantum's picture

As my meditation teacher once said...

...when I kept saying things like that post above...

"That's all thought. I still think you think too much. Just put all your attention back on the (drone) and stop thinking too much."

After that, I stopped my philosophysing. At least I stopped taking my philosophysing so seriously.

Another long time meditator also once said, after I wrote him a very long philoshopical email filled with my theories..he said,

"This tells me that the meditation is working for you and doing it's work. It's like an exlax. It get's all that crap out of your system. And it may even be fun to look at and talk about what comes out, but you don't to put it back in again."

So, whenever a thought comes, I just put all my attention back on the (drone.)

Quantum | Tue, 03/02/2010 - 02:39
Gilana's picture

Devotion

Devotion has some unique qualities:

1. When you are really fall in love with something you end up thinking, feeling, focusing your attention on the loved thing rather than yourself.

2. Then you give gifts, write poems, attend more and more to its needs and wants and desires--or even only your perception of those things--rather than to your own.

3. There is a possibility that you finally forget all about yourself and concentrate solely on the loved thing.

You see this in teen age girls who can't stop thinking, talking about, writing about and daydreaming about a boy. They barely notice themselves, only to make themselves attractive to the boy. At some point, however, disillusionment sets in and they go on to another boy.

Interestingly enough, when the "boy" is God or Guru, it never stops being attractive--it just gets more and more attractive until it reaches the max you are capable of, then it stays the same for years and years and years. For instance, no matter how the Guru acts or changes, it doesn't affect the attraction. (I guess this is why the "false Guru" scare.) But the benefit still positively affects the disciple...you are in love and all the benefits are yours, no matter what the "other" does.

It's a fast track because it's like a positive drug addition--addiction to loving God.

Gilana | Wed, 03/17/2010 - 07:09
joejo's picture

Completely Agree

I completely agree that devotion to the Guru is highway to Enlightenment. Had read the wonderful journey of Swami Muktananda in Chitashakti Vilas and his devotion to his Guru Nityananda.

The devotion brings about the surrender which is the goal, the ninth step in the ladder of nine fold devotion of Bhakti Yoga.

joejo | Wed, 03/17/2010 - 07:56
Quantum's picture

That explains why Jesus seemed to lean towards Bhakti yoga

and why even Lord Krishna, when asked which method was best he said they are all good, but that the way of devotion was the fastrack way. Just like you said.

Jesus even said, "Love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your mind and with all you soul." THat pretty covers all the bases of a person's entirety. Now I understand better why Jesus promoted that particular yoga technique. Man! I'm overwhelmed by this clarity you provided.

You're genius, Gilana. That example of teenage girls puppys crush of a boy, and then translating that to God....adds so much simplicity and clarity to an otherwise arcane mystery to me.

Blessings to you for you post above.

Quantum | Wed, 03/17/2010 - 15:58
Gilana's picture

Thou Shalt Love The Lord Thy God

Love is genius--Love clarifies, it makes it simple, it makes apparent what matters and what doesn't. Experience makes it personal.

And my Guru (even though he's a real guy-guy and a seems maybe a little uncomfortable with all the love he gets)...he said it first. He says "fall in love, love more." He makes the poignant analogy of the people at the banquet who "don't want people to see how much they are eating" and "don't want to get fat" get run over by the guy who is ravenous and says, "GIVE ME THAT TURKEY LEG-----RIGHT NOW." Stronger love translates to stronger hunger for the loved one and does away with our inhibitions--we just have to be near the object and will do anything to get there. (ie. most "I Love Lucy" episodes).

I've always felt the demand of God to be that way--like a gravitational force, unrelenting, pulling, always attempting to get even stronger in my consciousness looking for loopholes in my ego. The prayer that you quote is my personal mantra and has been since I was tiny -- although it must be in the Old Testament, since I was raised Jewish.

This is the version I learned: "Thou shalt love the lord thy God with all thy heart, with all thy soul and with all thy mind. And these words shall be written upon the doorposts of thy house and upon thy gates that ye shall remember them upon thy going out and upon thy coming in. And thou shalt recite them upon thy lying down and upon thy rising up, that ye shall remember and do all of my commandments and be holy unto thy God."

Thank you.

It's the only prayer I taught my kids. It's the only prayer that comes to me when I am in real trouble. It's my mantra.

Gilana | Wed, 03/17/2010 - 18:30
Quantum's picture

Sounds like maybe it was Moses

who said that. Perhaps it might even be one of the 10 commandments. Haven't read my Christian Bible in a while. Been reading Eckart Tolle, and surfing youtube for spiritual guidance, and yes, here on Gurusfeet. :) Good stuff today!

Quantum | Wed, 03/17/2010 - 22:46
joejo's picture

Division, Thinker & Thought

Well I thought that the division between the thinker and thought is one of the core issues. There is a difference in perception as to what is meditation. Isn't seeing the false as false meditation.

In the meditation of self inquiry one needs to focus on what the thinker, ego or seer is. Even an intellectual approach to it is not a waste of time for it clarifies a great deal before one sets fort to see it for oneself within.

joejo | Tue, 03/02/2010 - 04:08
joejo's picture

Knowledge, Wisdom & Time

There are few things I thought that needed clarification. But before I embark on them wanted to get over this intimidation of your Looooong time meditation teacher. Time was never a factor of Wisdom and nether does it add gradually. The Law that it obeys are not linear.

Now that nerves are a little calmer coming to the question of understanding and knowledge. Surely there must be some difference between them. I had initiated a forum to say that there are two kinds of knowledge and we could discuss it after I hear your views.

joejo | Tue, 03/02/2010 - 05:29
Quantum's picture

My views...

I've already posted.

I still think you think too much. You feed your mind too many thoughts. You cannot transcend the mind by indulging in it so much.

When a thought comes, and I see you have quite an abundance of thoughts...just put all your attention back on your drone.

I think I'm done playing here. Some of the posts have been fun, but it's time to get back to meditation.

Ciao!

Quantum | Tue, 03/02/2010 - 06:01
MSheekhain's picture

Hi all, Is it that the ego

Hi all,

Is it that the ego reside in the domain of concept, whereas direct experience of preceptual input can be thought of (conceptualized as) as a domain of pure existance. The formation of the conceptual domain initiated the idea of individuation. The "I", as it is, was idealized out of the fight or flight instint of the reptilian brain. The first advent being possibly cave art, where a representative figure was draw, conceptualizing preception.

The formation of concept or representation of perception arose as the need to relate experience to a precieved other arose. The formation of language paralled this developement. The domain of ego is the conceptualization or ideafication of direct experience.

From this artificial construct, identity is born, limits created.

En (add) lighten (more light) ment ( to).

To add more light or illumenation.

Consider the limits of concepts and identity as walls that restrict the ambeint light of form and unform pure experience. To the exact measure that concepts and identification to concept is deconstructed, is the measure of illumination that will exist within a point of perceptual integration

And so it is, !,!

MSheekhain | Thu, 08/26/2010 - 17:51
joejo's picture

Life in a corner

The individual or me are the glasses through which we view life. We live in a small corner of life. We look through a narrow hole and have an overtly intellectual view. As a result everything becomes repetitive and burdensome as we spend our energy in trying to mould life to the way we want it to be.

Could we be a little more open and give life a chance to touch us differently. To not allow mechanical reactions overshadow & spoil the party, we need to be watchful and not be scared.

It is vital not to waste energy and there is no greater waste than unnecessary conflict.

joejo | Fri, 08/27/2010 - 16:05
Gilana's picture

I'm trying to get out of the corner!

No bigger challenge for me right now than to widen my view. I am using every depressed thought, disappointment, worry and even every victory and happy, joyful feeling to be a cue to remember the whole.

While I'm sure that this new thing or that new thing is so important, so big it's going to color the rest of my life, there is an entire universe out there teaming with other little "me"s with all of my complexity, doing the same thing. And beyond just the material - the immaterial, too! A universe teaming with life.

All happening right now. How big am I in that crowd? How many other things are happening RIGHT NOW?

The gift of it is even though my mind cannot conceive of it, but my consciousness can hold it all at once. And that gives "me" a different perspective.

Gilana | Sat, 08/28/2010 - 00:28
MSheekhain's picture

"its a ride, man, its all just a ride".

From comedian Bill Hicks.

The ineresting thing about the coceptaul awareness of the thought pictured world and direct experience of perception intergration is time lag.

From the point of perception to integration with memory and presentation to the human consciousness, about one hundreths of a second to one tenth of a second has elapsed since the reality event.

Most live in the presented conceptual dimention scince about two or three years old. The guru or yogi has fallen into the demention of awareness and become conscious of a point closer to the actual event, the event horizon. The point in which reality has re-presented itself. The point of perception, either prior to or at the point of intergration with memory, definately prior to conceptulazation and presentation to the conscious mind.

The Buddha observed at the deepest level of the mind "kalapa" arising and passing away at a billion time a second. This is how often the "now re presents".

Whether conscious of the conceptual or the actual, its a ride.

And so it is, !,!

MSheekhain | Sat, 08/28/2010 - 19:53
joejo's picture

Subjective Real

Before the objective perception is reached one has to sort out a great deal in our subjective consciousness which for large part hinges on unreal self-image and screwed up emotional life.

It is a waste of time to speculate on what is absolute perception or reality as no one has been able to describe it. One can see the false and in that very process it is set aside and with this I am concerned & not with metaphysical speculation.

joejo | Sun, 08/29/2010 - 01:01
MSheekhain's picture

got it

It took three failed marriages and two years of rage to learn i cant control others or life. Best wishes

And so it is, !,!

MSheekhain | Sun, 08/29/2010 - 05:03
B-friend's picture

using the word false

Hey Joejo..What does the word false mean to you in the context you are using it? Are you including what is illusory and ephemeral in your concept of it as you examine yourself?

And..What is the point at looking at what is false if the focus isn't to see what is real? That would be like looking only for the specks and smudges on a window without trying to see the view behind it.

I also think many have done wonderful jobs speaking of "absolute perception" as you put it.

B-friend | Sun, 08/29/2010 - 14:34
B-friend's picture

and PS

I ask these questions because, to me, this is a very important process. For me I made the mistake of assuming that anything that may be seen or witnessed is false because I accepted the mind as false and the world as a lie. I was so intent at examining the illusions of existence that it became a habit of mind itself. So that when perhaps something Real was witnessed, that habit turned it into a lie. And perhaps due to this mistake, the proceeding years of my life were a descent into my own hell to destroy the mind that had erred so much.

Seeing the false is important but not at the expense of the Real. The focus should be on what is Real. Those who spoke of what is Real have provided that gift. Otherwise, it is a wandering in darkness with no light to guide unless one has the faith to endure, which I didn't in my opinion. But I'm still here..lol

B-friend | Sun, 08/29/2010 - 15:04
joejo's picture

Seeing

If I may, one is concerned with *seeing*.

To come to your question I had named two of those ( in my post above) that go by the name of false ---one is self image and the other our glorious emotional life where love turns to hate, happiness turns to sadness, in short every emotion can change to its opposite within no time and they do. Haven't I turned into a cynical fool?

There is a discrimination between the good and the bad yet the truth lies beyond as the real and the false that you speak of are related. True emotions don't have a negative counterpart. Does Love have any?

This is a topic that would need further discussion and am waiting for your response.

joejo | Sun, 08/29/2010 - 15:36
B-friend's picture

emotions

"True emotions don't have a negative counterpart."

What makes this a true statement? Emotions are emotions. The mind categorizes and relegates them to having opposites.

Emotions can be great learning tools. They do a lot of work for us. Even rage as MSheekain might agree with.

Just let them go when they're finished rather than hanging onto them and judging them to be something that they're probably not. When an emotion comes you can feel it twisting your focus as if your focus was an adjustable camera lens. Emotions may happen to you but how can they be you? Even the rage can adjust your focus to a laser sighted focus to destroy and cast out all that is unnecessary for you. Ramana felt the emotion of extreme fear that provided him his laser sighted focus as he lay examining himself when his realization occurred.

The next time you feel a strong "negative" emotion, observe it. Feel how it makes the body feel. Watch how it colors your perceptions and changes your world or reality into reinforcing those emotions. Then know that it is transitory. The reality it creates is transitory. Don't let them be building blocks of a new "person" you imagine yourself to be because of them. Let them remind you to look for what is not transitory.

Eventually that reminder can dissolve them nearly instantaneously. That is of the ability and beauty of Love.

B-friend | Sun, 08/29/2010 - 17:21
joejo's picture

Divine or Unconditional Love

Some choose to call it divine or unconditional Love to differentiate it from the Love as we understand.

Buddhists practice Metta or Karuna which they consider as prerequisites.

Maharshi speaks of realisation being same as a state of pure(shuddha) sattva. This is a tranquil state of being devoid of conflicts of love & hate or dualities in short.

Which is the "I" that says that it is not emotions. Remember Maharshi never advocated Soham or I am that approach. True I is a silent witness, the substratum. This thing about observing negative emotions is ok as far as it goes but few have them dissolved this way. Transformation of emotions is the key and if one is able to do that then one would find a change in being. Maharshi wept and had divine emotions immediately after the death experience when he visited the temple. I write this from memory.

There has been a long debate on enlightenment being gradual or sudden. Yet, certainly intellectual grasp of "I am that" is no realisation.

joejo | Mon, 08/30/2010 - 12:22
B-friend's picture

Modes

You're speaking of things as if they are to be attained by the mind. It's a mistake. The mind is not going to attain any peace or silence. It is not going to transcend itself. Mind will always be mind.

>>>"Transformataion of emotions is the key and if one is able to do that then one would find a change in being"<<<

There are many things that can change one's sense or mode of being. For example, vegetarianism (which I think you have spoken of) or a change in diet can "transform" ones mode of being.

If I eat meat, my "emotional mode" of being is greatly impacted into a very negative and extremely harsh state.(It amazes me every time) Simply by abstaining from meat can I come into a more peaceful and quiet emotional state. There are other relative and personal things too that can trigger one into a such a mode of being. One other thing personally, for me, is playing online poker. Sounds arbitrary and silly, but no matter what, it has a very dark impact on my "mode of being". I love the game. Just not healthy for some reason on a personal level.

You can explore if you have any such things that trigger or induce these states. And take vegetarianism, too. So many find it easy to just say "it is all in the mind"; "why be vegetarian?"; "It only creates conflict". Yet they go on to never know its outstanding benefits and emotional well being.

>>>"There has been a long debate on enlightenment being gradual or sudden."<<<

Enlightenment is always there, it is the releasing of ignorance that is gradual or sudden. Turning it into such a grand and mysterious event worthy of only the few who have attained it only prolongs and robs you of it.

>>>Yet, certainly intellectual grasp of "I am that" is no realisation."<<<

I most certainly agree with that.

M: The self does not need to be put to rest. It is peace itself, not at peace. Only the mind is restless. All it knows is restlessness, with its many modes and grades. The pleasant are considered superior and the painful are discounted. What we call progress is merely a change over from the unpleasant to the pleasant. But changes by themselves cannot bring us to the changeless, for whatever has a beginning must have an end. The real does not begin; it only reveals itself as beginningless and endless, all-pervading, all-powerful, immovable prime mover, timelessly changeless.

B-friend | Mon, 08/30/2010 - 20:49
11eleven's picture

MR HICKS R.I.P

thanks for saying that- really liked your perception-
new here and have really gotten a kick outta how serious people think what is-(or their idea of)
laugh and play-after all-its just a ride:)

ALL DIFFERENCES are in the mind of the Observer -- NEVER/EVER in the Observation.

11eleven | Mon, 04/04/2011 - 05:21
leo75's picture

Knowledge and realization of truth

In my opinion enlightenment means knowing and realizing true nature of things.To an enlightened person all the secrets of nature will become known.Anyway thats what i would like enlightenment to be if i could ever get anywhere near to it.Because if doesnt give u understanding of true nature and all secrets then to me it seems useless.

leo75 | Mon, 11/29/2010 - 13:02
joejo's picture

Self Knowledge

The best place to start in knowing the true nature of things which is objective knowledge is to know oneself for the same laws operate in oneself (microcosm) which act in macrocosm.

So if our present state is ignorance then the way to objective knowledge is through knowing Self or our true I.

joejo | Mon, 11/29/2010 - 13:22
viv's picture

There is no such thing as

There is no such thing as self. What you think you are, is just that: A thought.

www.v4vivality.blogspot.com

viv | Mon, 06/27/2011 - 16:13
Isha's picture

What is Enlightenment

When one journeys to seek enlightenment it must not be for a better world than they live in. Better prospects ambitions to be a millionaire yogi etc. overall alleviate suffering for themselves and others. Because it does not do that and there would be no meaning to life. It would be better to see into the truth about suffering first hand from God. These are all blindness from the word 'Go' and the Divine will not reward you bountifully.
Enlightenment today seems to be anything in connection with the Spiritual a religion, God you have never met or seen. Even if there are no signs of the Spirit and enlightenment it has been a quest and inside made you believe in something and express changes.
Some may seek biological changes in a powerful kundalini experiance but this is not an ultimatum just another step on the journey. Even if one has had the most impressive powerful mind changing experiance of enlightenment Spiritually it is evaluated neither here nor there-another step in the journey.
Enlightenment is not putting aside the world and reality before the great journey but embracing it as another part to life itself. It should be lived out and consulted everyday and for those superhuman nurtured and grown till it blossoms like an undying flower. It is better to change yourself like the flower than to ask for something for the quest then all it's fruits will be accepted like gifts deservedly.

Isha | Sun, 09/11/2011 - 13:36
joejo's picture

What is against What should be.

Our problem is that all our projections of no - self or absolute Self or philanthropic ideas are the product of our shared human consciousness which arises out of a common ground of conditioning.

Is there something that can "SEE" things as they are rather than think about the what should be. Knowing the limitations of thought may be the right step. Then there is no metaphysical thought but only thought and all its complications and "Seeing" (intermittent?).

Our normal state is sleep and wakeful moments few and far between.

joejo | Sun, 09/11/2011 - 14:07
Isha's picture

Introspect... the Enlightened mind. Mind of God Enlightenment?

Enlightenment is not always a difficult quest what I meant was different religions have different ideas and potency of enlightenment.
As for selflessness I expect it is to become perfect like God-to become another being other than ourselves that we may let go all things philosophically speaking material-because we still have needs. But to let go of negative attachments to this world that have lead us to having impresssions printed onto ourselves maybe even painful with experiance running ever deeper and even by others. So the enlightenment must be quite powerful because you can not change others-only yourself.
Seeing things, enlightened would be from a Divine cosmic standpoint. Seeing can be from impressions of truth on the mind but if you are selfless you would not ask by questioning your abilities if they were from a source like God, but know in the all-knowing sense. Accepting would be an experiance of enlightenment in your mind-you would have to, that against a Divinity in humility. That seeing by the Divine on your mind is very different from self seeking and knowing yourself.
Though I do not understand what thought and seeing have in common unless one is to become crtitical or judgemental. But I suspect with enlightenment experiances thought would be limitless because it comes from an all knowing Source-you can ask and search for anything with the Creator in the cosmos on His terms. Not in trails or bombardment of self thought which would have it's limits.

Isha | Sun, 09/11/2011 - 15:09
joejo's picture

Perception and Thought

When we see a tree or a flower do we think it or perceive it first and then the ideas come in. The qualifying ideas are thought but the pure perception is not an act of thought.

If one can perceive something from his whole being without the interference of thought it is called "Seeing".

We "See" only very occasionally and immediately thoughts come and spoil the party. To be in question helps "Seeing". This is the quest or path of Enquiry.

The question Who am I then assumes a different meaning.

joejo | Sun, 09/11/2011 - 15:35
MSheekhain's picture

those with eyes,,let them see; those with ears, hear.

Joejo's comments bring this to mind. If thinking were no different than speaking, i could believe that Jesus may have been saying, close the mouth and turn off the Definer part of the mind/ perception so that the essence of his intent might be seen and heard.

Really enjoyed reading these posts in this way. No definement, no assessment, at least for a few moments, then letting thoughts flow.

The second comandment added to the first mentioned in an earlier post, "Love thy neighbor as thy self". I believe both are first written in Leviticus.

I have begun to understand it as written 'to Love (compassion, empathy) my fellow beings (friend or precieved foe) as my self (as if they are me). Putting myself in the other and Loving that which is me in thee. Removes the focus from the self center and directs attention outward, toward direct experience of That which is manifesting from the infinite into tempirary form.

Any thoughts on this focus vs the Love your friend as you Love your self, which recomends Loving the self,

MSheekhain | Sun, 09/11/2011 - 18:55
Isha's picture

Perceiving by love rather than thought

Yes, I would certainly say love thy-self because love is a kind of energy, Spirit or power you may call it that. From 'thyself' it may easily be given to others pure and from the heart.
Christianity ofcourse says the more you practise love the more selfless you become even taking the sting out of death for the rewards of the heavenly kingdom. This is enlightenment in the Christian sense to be lead by love, love of God and love of fellow men- remaining in the love of Christ.
Even though you can feel vast amounts of love, already on the journey, really you can not measure it against another love. And so must be the nature of enlightenment.

Isha | Tue, 09/13/2011 - 13:45
joejo's picture

Love is Free Energy

Love to me is free energy. Ordinarily all our energy is taken up by conflicts and self seeking activity. Emotions use up this energy. Emotions are a kind of bottomless pit that saps us of energy.Our loves in no time turn to hate and that which exalted us pushes us to depression.

Freeing the emotional energy is to pave the way for true Love.
But emotions cannot be controlled by will or thought. They require our conscious attention and effort. Endless talking. partying and busy bee attitude rob us of the precious energy. Daydreaming, laziness and pessimism are other important holes through which energy leaks. One has to be watchful and stop the leaks and then by trying to Question (Enquire) and increased awareness enhance the production of Energy.

"Yoga Karmeshu Kaushalam", Yoga is dexterity in action as Geeta the holy book of Hindus says.

joejo | Tue, 09/13/2011 - 15:04
eliojosemarin's picture

This is good.

I like this post...

eliojosemarin | Sun, 09/25/2011 - 13:52
Isha's picture

Guru enlightenment

Do you speak of how a guru shows you enlightenment when he makes you perceive a flower in a different way. A guru has a Spirituality and firstly you are caught in his Spirit. When he shows you a flower he tries to make an impression on your mind just like an enlightened impression which could come from the Source and he does this by also inspiring you.
An enlightened reaction would be a very innocent impression like a child's delight on seeing a flower for the first time. It's this idea of newness or new born to define the enlightenment against anything else. Some times a guru can effect your inner world and show you various flowers in sequence while you are meditating. Some people like the guru acting daily on ones life some find it irritating and others would feel an intrusion.

Isha | Tue, 09/13/2011 - 13:12
joejo's picture

Enlightenment is not a Experience

If we take a drug we could have very different experiences. People smoking pipe have felt that they were the pipe. Would you call that an enlightening experience.

I live in India and had in the past searched far and wide for Gurus. While I am not against them but a lot of it is sham and commercial propaganda. I have met barely a couple who measure up to what could be a real guru but even they were a far cry from what I had imagined.

In our confusion and ignorance we cannot benefit from any external help and if things get sorted out then the guidance comes from within which is the universal light of intelligence assessable to whoever is willing to let go of his prejudices and rise above conditioning and mechanical behaviour.

joejo | Tue, 09/13/2011 - 13:54
Gilana's picture

"In Light" inment

Here's my piece to add to this fascinating discussion:

Enlightenment is as hard a riding a bike. If you think about it, it's impossible. If you do it, it's a knack. If you do it a lot, it's your way.

Existence's perspective or your personal perspective? See what is really there or see what you dream is there? Be surprised? Or be "right?" Surprise is always there when "you" are not running the show...

Why is a guru helpful? It's the first step in practice of letting someone else run the show.

If you can do that, then the next step is in letting existence run the show. It's giving up the reins and allowing the horse to run...but how can we trust a wild horse?

You won't believe how magical, how ingenious, how intelligent it is! How personal, how loving, how ecstatic! Isn't that what all the ones who have already gone have said? You will still be there at first, but it will be the candy in life and you will crave getting closer to it - you'll sacrifice anything! It's the ultimate drug and it's good for you! That's why they call it "ecstasy."

There is a secret of the "Guru." A secret they don't talk about. The secret is: The Guru is just an agent. A Ticket Taker. When you surrender to a Guru, he can't keep your surrender -- it goes immediately to God, and God takes over, because God is craving you...it's got to have you.

Gilana | Tue, 09/13/2011 - 14:53
MSheekhain's picture

Those that know dont speak

i totally get the bicycle analogy, i approach it from "one cannot make a list of things that they dont know that they dont know". To think of the self in terms of Enlighten is to objectify this state of being and suddenly your outside of self looking back at self.

Same with Loving the Self, impossible, for one must be outside its own beingness to see self or to Love self. To think or or speak of self is to no longer be thy self. Thrre is no self, there is only that which is.

MSheekhain | Tue, 09/13/2011 - 16:16
MSheekhain's picture

Absolute being

Was discribed to me as: "being completely unware of being unaware of being"

Where as consciousness: " being completely unaware of being aware of being"

And self conscious/ awareness: " being completely aware of being aware of being"

Lastly, Ego was discribed: " the story we make up to explain being"

MSheekhain | Tue, 09/13/2011 - 23:32
joejo's picture

Nature Bestial, Divine and the Witness

I approach it a bit differently. Traditionally there has been an approach where the bestial nature is to be cast aside, conquered or transcended. One has to then cultivate the Divine nature. The struggle between the Satan and Angels is almost perpetual.

Can we not love our bestial nature and treat it like our own child. Nature in its game to maintain existence has infused certain joy in corporeal life. We however cling to it and deny the other possibility of Divine nature where joy springs from subtle mind (spiritual). Clinging to this (Divine nature) too is a folly.

The Witness principal must maintain neutrality or Love both equally.This Loving Gaze of equanimity is Yoga. This to me is the highest Principal.

joejo | Wed, 09/14/2011 - 01:37
Isha's picture

Self

Normally day to day life engages us in the self. My children my wife etc. I must earn and make them comfortable. My time, my mail etc. We think we think in ourselves for ourselves. This is how self centered we are. So the I and self become important and give us our identity. But if you begin to put others before you you can soon elimintate the self with the help of God with practise. Enlightenment would be a state of Spiritual bliss and resiliancy to life.
'Those that know do not speak'-such wisdom! For it is true the unknowing can not understand and to make them see is a task where the guru would be helpful.

Isha | Wed, 09/14/2011 - 13:04
Isha's picture

Careful of gurus

The only thing with enlightenment is as you get older you think you will not have enough time to achieve it! And you leave it a few years longer and you still have not started. Some people know what it is and have been surprised by it they feel they have to taste it again because when it was short lived it was suppose to be the way their life should have gone.
I am not sure about a guru though. I have been frightened by many who'play'in the cosmos with disciples encountered strange tribal people jumping over me while sleeping and had out of body experiances. All this is meant to keep you interested fascinated hooked so the guru can take your money. India is a stage for great psychic theatre as well as Spirituality and you can be fooled by the performance. It is better to go to a guru who shows nothing except reading extracts of holy books and listen than to judge psychic ability with the level of power a guru may have.

Isha | Wed, 09/14/2011 - 13:32
Isha's picture

Enlightenment may not be an experiance

But it certainly can be mistaken as an experiance because it can be short lived, come unsexpected and leave mucky 'paw' prints all over you for the rest of your life. So where do we look then you may ask? But only to look at Spirituality surrounding the deity more closely. That Spiritual 'experiance' is an offshoot of enlightenment.
I have had the same experiance with gurus. Usually a great person like Jesus, Mary, Krishna, Ram are better than living gurus and you can be assured of direct communion with the Divine.

Isha | Wed, 09/14/2011 - 12:47
MSheekhain's picture

Gettinv thrre

The value of a Guru is not What is said but being in the field of presence surounding the guru, the Guru speaks only when the devotee cant recieve any other way.

MSheekhain | Wed, 09/14/2011 - 17:59
Isha's picture

Enlightenment Spirit

That is the Spirituality of the guru. But the same is felt in a church or temple a presence of a Spirit. Some may even say if just people were gathered there would be a sense of Spirit. Even on opening a holy book there is a sense of Spirit.
In order for the guru to be a saint and carry on serving after death his Spirituality must be felt even known and present when called upon. But who knows as to the true heart of the guru? I know for sure a guru will confine you like in a cult or religion and take away your sense of freedom from the rest of the world and you may feel a sense of seclusion.

Isha | Fri, 09/16/2011 - 12:36
Gilana's picture

Interesting

I like your point of presence of spirit - what else is there?

I wonder what you are referring to when you say that "a guru will confine you like a cult or religion and take away your sense of freedom from the rest of the world." ?

Maybe it's different in the East - maybe just the way things are conditioned it's different in the West.

I wonder about your experience...

Gilana | Sat, 09/17/2011 - 02:29
Isha's picture

Enlightenment?

When you follow a religion or guru you are in a sect. The Spirit provides the joy and enthusiasm to carry on and the search for something great. Any sect creates a world of it's own with it's rules some may be bizarre and you are removed from the real world ruled by government, mentally conditioned, then it is seen as a cult following.
The East is better at accepting religions, sects etc. but the West is very critical. In any faith you follow you will be mentally conditioned and that takes away the sense of freedom in the world. What is the end result of enlightenment when the mind has been conditioned to receive it? How do you trust? It's this mental conditioning takes place at every meeting in order that you to follow the cult and not leave the sect. A quest for enlightenment should be more a personal discovery. That you can be assured of it's originality and purity. In a way it is like beginning with self discovery.

Isha | Sat, 09/17/2011 - 09:59
joejo's picture

The Key

To be conscious as against being totally identified with what one is doing is probably the key to progress on the path. Even if one was to pray to a God sitting in the haven he has to do it with all his heart and soul which is being conscious. To be awake is to be conscious and it needs to be taken literally. Bible mentions our state of sleep and the need to keep vigil.

We forget the HEART of the matter and focus on peripheral issues. Purification of Heart requires uncovering the negativity and inertia of the energy of Heart (Pran).

joejo | Sat, 09/17/2011 - 15:41
MSheekhain's picture

Experiencing enlightenment

I watched a you tube about nondualism yesterday. I have been exposed to, practiced being aware in a nondualist fashion,but this time something was different. The topic was "no point of reference". In essence there is one "self or being" which has expressed itself in Six Billion forms or people, one of whom is Me. So i could then sense that "I" am here but also I am over there as you.

So i started to see "others " as me. I drive a commercial truck cross county and became so ammused as i watched myself racing to get in front of myself, i guess to beat myself to the next exit. Later, i was talkibg to myself behind the counter about the price of fuel. Then i watched myself arguing with myself about something.

I had to finaly stop laughing as i realized that somewhere i was killingmyself.

Such is the experience of a small part of enlightenment. I suspect many have already experienced this small realization, but it was new to me. I felt so in synche with every part of me, i'm headed to a coffee shop to see what else i'm doing as the "others".. LOL

MSheekhain | Sat, 09/17/2011 - 22:03
Gilana's picture

In response

Anytime you turn on the lights and can see what's there clearly, it's en-lighten-ment.

I respond to your experience very much as a form of enlightenment...you saw clearly where before you didn't.

It's always a surprise, and always provokes laughter. Delightful. A suggestion that may or not prove out -- maybe you weren't killing yourself as much as expanding yourself.

I've had a little taste of this insight, but never where it became so personal as to really identify with other. I loved reading it.

So lovely....thanks for taking the time to write it out...

Truck drivers have such a long time to think and listen. I'm jealous somehow. If you didn't know (but you probably do, but if you didn't) lots of teachers put out cds you can listen to while you are driving. Such a pleasure to the spiritually oriented.

Gilana | Sat, 09/17/2011 - 22:51
MSheekhain's picture

Grateful

for the response and validation. I was feeling off balance and now thats "ok".

MSheekhain | Sat, 09/17/2011 - 23:28
SpiritualSeeker's picture

Enlightenment

Hi Isha;

What if all your reality is just a hologram that has been downloaded and updated daily to you by your 'Infinite I'? That would mean that you are only an observer when seeing pain and suffering in your perceived reality, as in truth – it is not real (like looking at a movie, when you see your hero killed – you feel sad, but you know your hero in the movie was just acting out a part – not real).

To know reality as it really is, you need to understand that you are not driving the bus through your life, your ‘Infinite I’ is and you are just looking out the window of the bus observing and obtaining feelings for your ‘Infinite I’ on this side of the ‘Field of Infinite Possibilities.’ There is no right or wrong, as everything is perfect as downloaded by your ‘Infinite I’ into your reality.

When you realise that that is what life is all about, you are well on your way to ‘Enlightenment.’ The biggest hurdle to get over is that ‘little inner voice’ which keeps feeding you negatives on your journey – that is your Ego and must be controlled.

Speak to you again soon.

David W.

SpiritualSeeker | Sat, 10/08/2011 - 04:47
Isha's picture

Your's is very effective beneficial meditation

I know about this too. It makes a lot of sense when you think about how the world spins on it's axis and everything is impermanent. So how can anything be real? But what is beyond the I? Just enlightenment? Would it be self-'ish' to say there is greater room now created for yourself and to expect 'treasures from above' quoted from the Bible and gifts form the real realms or facets of reality? Enlightenment would be a gentle changing of the mind here the 'infinite I'? Surely there is something like the Divine within you which is brought out. As an observer with the enlightened mind what do you bring to situations apart from benefiting yourself from a well tuned mind. I know I would benefit from this because even if I hear a drunken person shouting or foul language being used aggressively my soul gets disturbed with almost fear. What kind of meditation do you do?

Isha | Sat, 10/08/2011 - 11:33
SpiritualSeeker's picture

What is Real in our Reality

Greetings again Isha;

Your response is quite interesting in regard to “how can anything be real”. I agree that nothing in our holograms are real in the true sense, but as we are inside our holograms it feels and looks real. I think that the true reality is not obtainable from our side of the ‘Field’ and it resides with our ‘Infinite I’ on the other side of the ‘Field’.

By being an observer, I feel that I am channelling ‘Feelings’ back to my ‘Infinite I’ who is placing situations in front of me, so I can respond in the usual manner. By changing the way I respond to situations on this side of the ‘field,’ my ‘Infinite I’ could place more enjoyable (to me) situations inside my hologram, so I can return ‘Feelings’ that I prefer to feel (not anger, hate, fear, etc – only with love, happiness, contentment, etc).

Having said above, I understand that my ‘Infinite I’ knows what is best for me to experience throughout my existence and will keep placing situations into my hologram for me to respond to. By placing my complete trust in my ‘Infinite I’, life in my hologram will become easier for me as I will not be fighting the inevitable but going with the flow of life.

The devine I am sure stays on the other side of the 'field' and we are like a computer terminal that feeds information back to the mainframe server. This does not mean that the computer terminal is a mainframe server, but information can flow both ways.

As far as meditation goes, I only have to look at a sunset over the water or walk in a rainforest to be able to commune with my 'Infinite I'. All we need to do is to understand we are a 'Human Being' not a 'Human Doing' and we are where we need to be.

David W

SpiritualSeeker | Sun, 10/09/2011 - 21:15
Isha's picture

Enlightenment- Spirit- God

Enlightenment is all very well and the connection to a guru or religion. When the Spirit is a part of enlightenment expanding the possibilities of the outcome in the many faiths, who is to say or know one is going to the afterlife? One can only know for oneself and God in a personal experiance. So why go to such extremes at all when we know the Spirit which leads to enlightenment, if the faith is not practised becomes out of touch and out of reach? It would be such an unlikely expectation of a divinity or personal loving God. Because of this why believe in a God at all?
What worries me is enlightenment is not always a positive experiance eg. when you read about kundalini. How can a God with all His promises lead one to suffering in this way? Again why trust God therefore why believe in Him?
It seems to be nothing more than the opportunity to engage in discussion and philosophical speculation-in all those experiancing such grace or 'phenomena'. What have we achieved or got done in the Almighty's work on earth? Except enjoyed time and moments.

Isha | Mon, 09/19/2011 - 18:02
eliojosemarin's picture

To me Enlightenment is

To me Enlightenment is knowing who you are and experiencing the bliss and love of it.

As for sudden or gradual, I think this is a fascinating topic. To me, it´s gradual but also sudden. It´s gradual because for you to get the whole download of energy in one sitting might be too much. But the moment you start expanding or the moment you wake up for the first time, that happens in one single moment. Therefore, to me, there are two big awakenings. The first and the last.

You can know where you are in the path by how much have you expanded in consciousness. In reality the only one who can verify your own enlightenment is yourself. Thus, there is no need for verification, you just know.

Check out my blogs.

balancedharmony.blogspot.com (In english)
balancedharmony.wordpress.com (In english)
balanceyequilibrio.blogspot.com (In spanish)

eliojosemarin | Wed, 09/21/2011 - 11:50
Isha's picture

You are doing well.

Good for you you are balanced and gradual and even aware of what is going on so you are prepared. I have had a full blown sudden awakening in my sleep. I woke up one day so blissful and invincible. I had n't a clue what to do I did not even know you had to meditate-just because God had been graceful to me after I prayed intensely for the first time in my life over a crisis. Never had such an awakening again! Love to though. Any advise? But day to day I experiance many spiritualities, psychic powers etc. I need to cultivate for myself. Sometimes they are too overwhelming for me to feel safe trusting and go ahead.
Great, and to know where you are in the path that is wonderful! Keep going. In my awakening I became helpless and emotionally surrendered to God it came about from the depth of my tears after I feel asleep.

Isha | Wed, 09/21/2011 - 13:31
eliojosemarin's picture

Advice.

Hi Isha,
Wonderful comment. I enjoyed it.
You know, there are so many resources out there to connect to, that posses the enlightenment energy. With the internet and telephones believe it or not there exists now the possibility of waking up even at a distance. Even though, the truth of the matter of the topic is about the sincerity and commitment of the seeker to his or her journey. In my case, I am just so in love with this energy that I would gladly be willing to give up my ¨Old¨ life over and over again just to have a glimpse of it for a split second. And I have, in many ways. I think this is the kind of commitment a person has to have in order to succeed on the path. It´s like anything really, if you really want something, you must be wiling to risk everything for it.
Hope my words help and resonate.

Lot´s of love.

eliojosemarin | Wed, 09/21/2011 - 14:07
Isha's picture

Thanks- hear me out though

I know what you mean glimpses of enlightenment has been brought into the present and future. Even visual effects can demonstrate a glimpse. Are you offering it to me over the net like Shaktipat? Just asking!
I would like to point out to you in practise, occured to me after I had written, many do seek on the path like you, and are not so surprised and unaware as I was, being prepared, like Gopi Krishna. But you can still feel the power like a vault. I strongly recommend 'grounding'. You know how spaced out you can become meditating normally in the cosmos, grounding first makes you contact and touch the earth energy then you can go as high as you like in the cosmos with very good stability and control.
Good luck. Let me know of anything magnificent!

Isha | Wed, 09/21/2011 - 21:04
eliojosemarin's picture

Enlightenment, something magnificent.

Hi Isha,

My intention for the near future is to offer shaktipat to anyone who would like to have it. As of now, I don´t think I am prepared enough to offer it, mainly because the enlightenment process has not culminated. Grounding is very important to maintain yourself sane during the whole process because as you expand and consciousness becomes a solid reality, things can get a bit confusing if you are not prepared to shed your identity. So yes, I believe grounding is important.
Something magnificent? The bliss I am in right now, the joy and love that is pulsating through every cell of my body at this precise moment is truly breathtaking. I wish everybody could experience their own true nature.
love,
Elio.

eliojosemarin | Wed, 09/21/2011 - 22:04
joejo's picture

The Two Creations

There are two creations that we seem to live in. One is the creation of God & the other the creation of jeeva or individual soul. While God consciousness is real, the (other) individual consciousness is considered as false. This false consciousness screens the Real. Truth though lies beyond both and is termed as Absolute.

Within the individual consciousness one can have varied experiences including those of bliss. There apparently is a ladder from individual consciousness (jeeva) to that of God consciousness (Iswara). The dropping of our usual sense of Identity with Ego is said to be culmination of the journey that any soul could possibly strive for. Beyond it is the path of Gods with greater and greater unity with God consciousness called the union with God or Unity consciousness. This is the gradual path.

Yet there lies the most mysterious other development where one jumps straight to the absolute and looks at all as a dream including God creation.

A word of caution is that one is deceived many times in the so called journey to truth.

joejo | Thu, 09/22/2011 - 03:36
eliojosemarin's picture

You mention some really

You mention some really important things for people to know. On the last point you made about stepping directly to the absolute and confusing things, that was certainly my experience during my first awakening. But this only happens because of fears and doubts, and generally speaking not being prepared to face the truth of who you are. In my particular case I am not very keen on philosophy because Enlightenment is about experience. Yes bliss and love and peace are just side effects of experiencing consciousness, and yes the truth is not an actual experience because it is permanent, not transient. The only really thing the individual soul has against himself is his own seeking mind. The one responsible for labeling and acting separate. This seeking business is like a cat chasing it's own tail. Round and round people go. What might happen is that eventually you catch your tail in your mouth and slowly and painfully begin to digest yourself. Like the Ouroboros symbol. Then there is no need for philosophy.

eliojosemarin | Thu, 09/22/2011 - 08:26
Isha's picture

Very true!

In fact my crisis was I was doing an honourary degree in philosophy but really could not understand it from day one. Novels by Sartre, Camus fascinated me. I was among the most self abusing people I have ever known with very high qualifications even suicides. When I was awakened I flew through exams I had n't a clue about having read a page or two. I am still not a philosopher.
But I am honoured you have seen and believe in my awakening. It is so personal and difficult to get it out in the world.
Power to give Shakti can only be a wonderful transformation powerful even beyond your personal Shakti to do the work of God, even I believe, miracles.
As for dreaming on a sudden awakening, you must have the courage to go through it. It is like a battle between illusion and reality, good and evil an attack by malighn spirits. Everyone goes through it even the likes of Gopi Krishna did, it can even take your life never mind dreaming! By cultivating the good Spirit, God, you will overcome and crush hinderances and thats where purity, sinlessness and being saintly comes into the quest. What of philosophy? I only know from reading, western philosophy does not lead to enlightenment but eastern does. Still it is all about practise, philosophy or no philosophy is just text book material.
Are you feeling what they call prana in your cells and that is renewing you making you purer, sublime, super-human and even super-healthy on a physical level yet it is the Spirits work?

Isha | Thu, 09/22/2011 - 11:14
joejo's picture

Cosmic Consciousness & Absolute

Consciousness is its content. The individual is said to have attained sanity when thought assumes its place and works in the physical domain and does not confound matters with strange beliefs or by clinging to various experiences. There is then the possibility of Intelligence having a relation with him. It must be noted that our common lot is insanity or consciousness with aberrations. One of the main features of individual consciousness is division between the observer and the observed. As a result of total surrender the intelligence operates unhindered and this is also called Cosmic Consciousness. The difference in this Consciousness is that there is no difference between the observer and the observed. It is therefore also known as Unity Consciousness.

In the case of Absolute there is no Consciousness or content. It’s a Black Hole where there is no trace of experience or past. There can be no Path to it and talking of enlightenment with respect to it is delusion.

The link below is an interesting read.

http://www.spiritualteachers.org/b_roberts_interview.htm

joejo | Thu, 09/22/2011 - 13:54
Isha's picture

No absolute in Christian enlightenment

Christian enlightenment can be known at each step in contemplative prayer but I do not believe it has a peak or absolute. Therefore it is not as powerful as Hindu or Buddist maybe even Jewish. Then again you can not measure the Spirit or the amount. Even in the experiance of it's absence it is there.
As for sanity and insanity who can define a line between the two? Which may even be the same for the real world and unreal after all who can see and prove all that is beyond? If you have experianced enlightenment you are insane? And if you have not you are sane? Just because your consciousness is different from someone else does not mean you are insane compared with someone else. You can not see consciousness or even the mind to treat it in a psychiatry institute. It's a lost cause and only for criminals who should be in prisons anyway.
What worries me is when enlightenment is seen as something from the underworld.

Isha | Fri, 09/23/2011 - 13:19
joejo's picture

Ego or the center breeds conflict

I don't think there can be different types of enlightenment. Often it is described by the person in terms of his or her background. Yet, one must know that the description is not the described.

As regards sanity or insanity it’s very clear that it’s the Ego or the center that breeds conflicts and sorrow which affect our perceptions and perpetuate ignorance.

The Hindu advatic scripture Brahmsutra Bhasya in its opening verse starts with "Now, hence begins the enquiry into Absolute (Brahman) signifying that while there can be no path to the Absolute there is a certain preparation required (Qualifications) before the Guru imparts to the disciple the Mahavakyas or Great sayings that show the Atman (Self) to be none other than the Absolute (Brahman).

Ramana Maharshi said that Ego needs to be mature to follow the path of enquiry. Though he maintained that this could be achieved through enquiry(though it may seem contrdictory to reason). He also acknowledged other paths that help aspirants who are not ripe to follow the path of enquiry.

As regards realisation of Absolute in Christian tradition, the link quoted above is a good example illustrating the case of Bernadette Roberts. The other that comes to mind is that of Meister Eckhart. Wonder what Thomas Aquinas meant when he said "Reginald, I cannot, because all that I have written seems like straw to me."

joejo | Fri, 09/23/2011 - 17:11
Isha's picture

I learnt a lot from you

Yes you are right the ego breeds conflict. Then you are on an altogether different path thats even playing havoc with your life and you think it is because you are too connected with the material...that you have not embarked already. Yet you feel you belong where everybody else is as well-when you don't do you? Because it is not your reality.
Hinduism is great. It should be my chosen path but I love Christianity very much what annoys me is the immorality and how do you choose a seclusive Christian path? Only recently I got angry with a priest for being so chuffed with himself for going to heaven he oversees the fact he is giving orphans in child labor to families. I have never seen successful Christianity, why fall so short of the faith is so many areas? Unappreciation of the beauty and joy and not understanding the deity.
This 'bag woman' I read about her, her problem is she is her own worst enemy and rejected all that was offered to her on a plate. What more can you or the Almighty give her? Her ingratitude makes me angry. Perhaps she did not really find Christianity in seclusion either, the ultimatum of her goal. It is so blatantly obvious. These are the type who would be happy to get some help in an institute where they can shout at everyone boast their lot and stay on top instead of go under.
If I could be a Christian hermit I would, but I can not even begin to discover this as it is not offered.
Thomas Aquinas did he really say that? Was he English? I thought he was in Italy next to Rome at such an early time. Did he not get his philosophy form a Greek Hypo-cri-tes BC and his 5 elements which make up the material world?
I know form facts-books but the Spirit makes me aware of all I do not outside books maybe even fearful, I believe, to keep me safe. Sometimes I dare say like in premonitions and just let be without enquiry. I may be being deceived because as you say I am in conflict which is going to effect the outcome. Does that mean I want to see real premonitions like real healing? Yes. But right now the cat has swollowed it's tail! Anyone can know from books. Hinduism is really the answer at least to think in that direction as invites R Maharishi but how to bow down to a Hindu God?

Isha | Sat, 09/24/2011 - 07:04
eliojosemarin's picture

The feeling of prana.

I am feeling the prana in every cell of my body. Only I don´t call it prana, I just call it the energy. It´s the same thing really. I experience it as waves of energy coursing through my body like a tsunami. It´s extremely blissful. As for super human or super healthy feelings, they are not present in me. Spirit works at a non-physical level. However physical side-effects ensue. Mainly and principally, joy, bliss and peace.

eliojosemarin | Thu, 09/22/2011 - 17:15
Isha's picture

Real Enlightenment?

If you look at people like Jesus, Mary, Buddha, they all were perfect in health. This is the least the divine can offer you on your quest. When you look at gurus today you will see they are sick. With prana each cell in your body is effected by your breathing so each cell is being renewed possibly with oxygen but I think prana is a substance combined with a good diet life giving, maybe a little fasting will help you as well in purification and balancing the body that the journey may be eased and more effective. Waves of energy, I believe you are in good steadfast control are the waves moving in the chakras?
When I stretch naturally, I feel a vault of energy (especially if I have been to a Spiritual place or function and participated. This effects my sleep and eating it effects all members of my family in this way). Sometimes this energy shakes my body uncontrollably and I need to sit down or it will throw me to the ground. Maybe it is an angry serpent! But it only occurs when I stretch. While this occurs, if I close my eyes I can see beautiful patterns lights as if I am in another world and even feel my chakras rotating very fast causing a build up of this energy. Because of this sometimes I wish, during this the energy would leave me like a force out of my body, worried about my health. I need to wake up from this dream.

Isha | Fri, 09/23/2011 - 12:46
kalgo's picture

It is your fantasy only

First, enlightened people are anything but perfect in health in most cases. Health is body and they are so indifferent to it due to them not being identified with it that many times they fall in illness and attract strong energies from sanyassen for the benefit of the sanyassens.

More specifically, you have no evidences about the health of Jesus, Mary, Buddha, not even in the scriptures - your statement that they had perfect health is baseless and of your fantasy only - inspect thoroughly whatever you claim as a fact if it is indeed a fact - it will help you in tour inner quest as well when you encounter phenomena concerning you.

kalgo | Sat, 09/24/2011 - 14:21
kalgo's picture

Just observe it

This is simply a kundalini outburst or bhanga. It's a phase, It signifies nothing. It doesn't mean any spiritual progress, just a phase. Enjoy and beware not to get attached to that enjoyable feeling and not to let the ego attach to that phenomena any personal significances.

kalgo | Sat, 09/24/2011 - 14:28
eliojosemarin's picture

Rely on yourself.

It is very good to rely on scriptures and religion for encouragement, however when it comes to discovering the truth the best thing one can do is rely on oneself. I enjoy listening to teachers of all backgrounds and reading about them, even reading holy scriptures. Nonetheless, the basic assumption that religion leads to the goal of spirituality is widespread, but mislead. Of course one can have a background in religion because it is almost inevitable, I was born in a christian family.
Bernadette Roberts talks about the experience of no-self from a christian point of view because she was a devout christian before that experience happened to her. I won´t talk too much about her since I don´t know much about her. But as all of you probably know where there is no-self there cannot be any believes, especially those pertaining religion.

That´s my take on in, hope I don´t offend anybody.

Lot´s of love.

eliojosemarin | Sat, 09/24/2011 - 09:53
kalgo's picture

That means to rely on your mind

To rely on "yourself" means to rely on your mind. There is no other option in your current state. Anyone who tells you that "yourself" can be a voice from the beyond, self, God, is mistakening you because if it was so, you wouldn't have needed anyway to address this issue at all. All you got right now is the voice of your conditioning of your mind so be very careful, to say the least, when and if you rely on yourself.

The only way, maybe, that you can rely on "yourself" is by doing the exact opposite to whatever "yourself" tells you...

And last thing: inspect every word you use. There are many words we use freely as placeholders like "yourself", "God", "truth" while we haven't got a slightest idea what they are truly standing for and so we arrive at erroneous claims.

kalgo | Sat, 09/24/2011 - 14:12
joejo's picture

Very Appropriate

I think you make very valid points in these posts. Swami Vevekananda passed away before he touched 40 and was ailing from diabeties. This though was predicted by his famous Guru Ramakrishna Paramhansa.

More importantly one of the aphorisms by Gurdjieff reads "like what it does not like". It stands for our personality or that part associated by our externalised mind.

Mind is a magician & can produce any experience even of great Bliss. I have been a victim of it so am cautious. It is safer to strive for a balanced development.

Balanced development is to pay attention to our sensory perceptions (body), emotions and thinking mind. One must be extremely careful regarding imagination, daydreaming and lethargy.

joejo | Sat, 09/24/2011 - 14:45
Isha's picture

What next?

These last posts have been very informative. I thank you all. This 'bhanga' outburst of kundalini energy has to go somewhere channelled properly in order to work with you harmoniously instead of on it's own or against you. Do I need method how to meditate in my case to direct this already energy in me, is normal meditation enough? Or am I too untrusting having tried various methods? I feel at a snails pace again? Or am I impatient as I know the outcome already. I know I must suffer a certain amount. Someone suggested chi but I am not too keen it. Any better precise guidelines?

Isha | Sat, 09/24/2011 - 15:16
eliojosemarin's picture

Intuition.

Actually what I was referring to was your own intuition. Everybody in the spiritual path knows one cannot rely on one´s own conditioned mind. On the other hand intuition can be available to us if we but listen to it. You don´t have to be enlighten to have a little intuition. In the spiritual path you have to have some kind of discernment to navigate everything that is available to us. If not, we can pass the opportunity of a lifetime, which is to find your true self either through life or a truly enlighten master. Beware, you can spend your entire life listening reciting mantras and reading holy scriptures, even attending satsangs while still wonder what is it going to make the difference. That is why I say have discernment and rely on your intuition.

eliojosemarin | Sat, 09/24/2011 - 16:28
joejo's picture

Observe What Is

Relying on intuition could be equally dangerous for there is a lot of grey territory there. It is true that stock broker or a successful business man may have good intuition but often it is wrong.

Discernment is a better word but it must not be logic or speculation. Discernment would require us to be neutral observers and not have prejudices, stakes or self interest in the outcome or happenings.

It is more important to address basic issues like why am I on the path. Why am I searching or want an experience (spiritual)? What does it mean to "Observe"? One has to learn the art of observation.

Then we must be very clear that humans are lying creatures. We lack sincerity and it’s not a matter or mere resolve that one can be sincere. Our cultural conditioning programmes us to lie to others and more so to ourselves.

Lastly one must not be afraid of mistakes but be ready to learn from them.

joejo | Sun, 09/25/2011 - 02:05
joejo's picture

Lying

I think it may be necessary to understand the habit of lying. In order to be socially acceptable we lie and it would be no exaggeration to say that it becomes very difficult to survive if we do not lie. Some would say harmless lies are no problem yet it’s by opposing this habit that we learn about this trait. In fact telling truth ranks very high in eastern discipline. We have a right to remain silent if we are unable to speak the truth.

Yet even more dangerous type of lie is that which we tell ourselves. We speak about things that we do not know or presume to know things we can never know. It is this that prevents further development. It is safer to say I do not know or be skeptical (not be overdone though).

joejo | Sun, 09/25/2011 - 08:28
eliojosemarin's picture

Openness.

I wonder, why start a discussion in a forum, and not be open to what other people have to say? Strange.

How exactly is it that you know I am telling lies? We are just talking you know. These are just words, don´t put so much emphasis on them.

You know, one of the most important attributes a person has in his or her spiritual path is the ability to be open to new stuff and new changes.

Your attitude is unfortunately shared by allot of people I encounter who are in some sort of search. Then, they wonder why nothing happens to them.

I also wonder why be in a spiritual search and treat others as if they were wrong all of the time like some fundamentalist clinging to his believes.

What if we are all right? What if we are all sincere inside? What if deep down we are all the same?

Spirituality is about accepting not discriminating.

Don´t divide, unite.

eliojosemarin | Sun, 09/25/2011 - 13:44
joejo's picture

Nothing against you

If I claim to be clairvoyant and know the situation you are in it would be lying. Even if I claim to have an insight into all that I have written in this forum it would be a lie. I feel sometimes that I understand a great deal but it’s also a lie for the test of truth is in Being and not knowing.

Lying is a general principal. We share similar human consciousness and have the possibility to access Universal Intelligence should we get our house in Order.

I am just using your thread as a medium to develop related issues and there’s nothing personal in it.

Now let me take this opportunity to discuss how we can be united. To be united is to "See" the same thing. If you point out an objective something and I too am able to have a similar perception after you pointed it out to me, then we are united and together "See" the same thing. This is Unity.

joejo | Sun, 09/25/2011 - 14:33
Isha's picture

Selflessness

I have never been inspired by liers. If you dig deep you can catch them or they are boring talking about something they do not know and if they are strangers you are not so concerned. In the enlightenment quest YOU are very important. And so the self is emphasised despite all we have said and I contradict myself because you have to nurture deep down and bring to surface and eradicate including lies all that is not accepted by the Divine in purification. But also you have to surrender this self to God if God is going to do it for you by enlightenment. You are worth your weight in gold when you are enlightened so what is denying the self all about? I think gurus preach this to make business to psychologically put themselves before you in your mind. Selflessness can only be surrender to God-forsomething better not meagre poverty or loss. Spirtuality can be mayhem. When the spirit of a deceased guru is met by reading his books preaching selflessness this has an effect. Spirituality can also be 'stolen' from another. These are very experianced.

Isha | Sun, 09/25/2011 - 15:05
MSheekhain's picture

The Master

interesting quote from the Gospel of St Thomas the Apostle

And Jesus told them, " When you Make the Two as One, and the Inner as the Outer, and the Outer as the Inner, and the above as the Below, and the Man and Woman as One, where the Man will not be Male and the woman will not be Female, only then will you enter the Kingdom".

In my meditation, i have asked for revalation as to this statement, still getting inspiration, some which may come through you.

It reads some what like Selflessness... It feels so comfortable and real, like yeah, we could be this way...to see all things as an expression from a single source, the profound and the profaine, the joy and sadness, the murderer and the victim, all dancing as partners to the rythem of Life, as Divine Love in Motion in a relative environment, where the One must rise as Two, yet eternally one.

MSheekhain | Sun, 09/25/2011 - 22:56
eliojosemarin's picture

Great posts.

Great posts from both of you.

I´m glad I said what I said.

Lots´of love.

eliojosemarin | Sun, 09/25/2011 - 15:26
Isha's picture

Just a word

Enlightenement is mind changing and even health giving bodily. It is good and must be nurtured in the mind and the body well looked after. Otherwise a fall from it will lead to problems. It is like a great light in your mind which illuminates. And such strength in your mental faculty to overcome everything and it is made a reality to you. If you have any addictions they fall away with this strength. That is as far as I know enlightenment I wish I had known as to the nature of my experiance then I would have pursued it and found great treasures to serve humanity with out qualms. You must have the power working in you which gives you perfect health before you can heal anyone else. This is real healing by enlightenment. Gurus and holy people emphasise healing so healing must be in the power and other gifts as well. The aim is to search within yourself and within the enligthenment with life long practice.

Isha | Mon, 09/26/2011 - 17:33
joejo's picture

I am not the Body

I have read Gopi Krishna. During the process which he describes as Kundalani awakening his body was in a precarious condition. Ramakrisna Paramhansa too had a very fragile constitution. Ramana Maharshi totally neglected his body and so did Ramakrishna during the phase of Nirvikalp Samadhi (Seedless Absorption in Absolute).

Psychic powers are considered an obstacle on the way. Ramana Maharshi says that they may come of their own accord to some if that be their destiny. He also said that powers that come before a person has reached enlightenment may be the cause of his downfall if he does not steer clear of them. The powers that come to an awakened Sage are a result of natural development of his Being and cannot be sought after or they don't come by effort.

joejo | Tue, 09/27/2011 - 15:23
Quantum's picture

What Psychic powers...

...have you noticed come to you?

(I assume you speak from personal experience.)

Quantum | Tue, 09/27/2011 - 20:08
joejo's picture

Powers What?

Given below are quotationns taken from the The Collected Works Of Shri Ramana Maharshi available for free download.

“10. Is there any connection between the attainment of
supernatural powers (siddhis) and liberation (mukti)?

Enlightened enquiry alone leads to liberation. Supernatural
powers are all illusory appearances created by the power of
maya (mayashakti). Self-realization which is permanent is
the only true accomplishment (siddhi). Accomplishments
which appear and disappear, being the effect of maya, cannot
be real. They are accomplished with the object of enjoying
fame, pleasures, etc. They come unsought to some persons
through their karma. Know that union with Brahman is the
real aim of all accomplishments. This is also the state of
liberation (aikya mukti) known as union (sayujya).”

Spiritual Instruction 72

“15. Not realizing that they themselves are moved by an
energy not their own, some fools are busy seeking miraculous
powers. Their antics are like the boasting of a cripple who
says to his friends: ‘If you raise me to my feet, these enemiesare nothing before me.”

Reality in Forty Verses: Supplement 125

“80. Liberation is attained only by knowledge (jnana). By
other powers (siddhis) such a fruit is unattainable. However,aspirants become enchanted with blemishful worldly enjoyments and thaumaturgic powers (siddhis) and go after them with desire.”

Devikalottara 185

joejo | Thu, 09/29/2011 - 11:10
Isha's picture

Psychic powers

Psychic powers are very real. If you are Indian like Joejo then you would know they are no big deal and no one in India is fascinated or overwhelmed by them. They are a nuisence depleat energy for one reason and can act on their own accord even if you have a lot of fun and pleasure out of them they leave you exhausted. That is why grounding before mediatation is very important because this feeds you energy. Telepathy is one effect even long distance then there are premonitions and dreams out of body experiances.
No they are not real enlightenment but powers which have their way after a fall from enlightenment. Some say they are not of God but like malighn spirits. The best way to experiance them is in a church or even with a guru or any very enriched person of God. They will tolerate them but do not confront the persons about them. You must go beyond them just as you go beyond malighn spirits in you quest.

Isha | Thu, 09/29/2011 - 18:28
Quantum's picture

Awareness

Awareness.

And that is worth a thousand words.

Anything can trigger it.

This simple grammatical phrase was a significant trigger:
"Subject-Object."

Then followed by a slew of realizations that objects/things noticed are not that which notices. Conversely, that which notices is not any of those objects/things that are noticed.

Anything can be noticed/observed/watched/witnessed/looked at, even awareness itself. Even awareness can be aware of awareness, and this can go back to infinity.

Yes, throughout all that, there is awareness of that which is noticed. There is awareness of objects/things noticed (including body, thoughts, emotions, feelings, awareness.)

Anything noticed is an object. The subject-object relationship implies separation, separation, detachment.

That which notices objects/things is...

Awareness.

Everything remains after that. Even suffering remains.

But, there is a big but.

Suffering viewed/looked at/observed/watched/witnessed consciously with awareness seems to bring in an objective third party detached observer.

In a dream, I am simultaneously the character in my dreams as well as the watcher of the dream movie.

Awareness in daily life is like that.

Quantum | Mon, 06/11/2012 - 21:29
Quantum's picture

Interesting effect

And interesting effect of witnessing/watching/looking at/observing suffering with awareness is that it seems to passover, pass through, more quickly because it is not being resisted. Awareness/noticing is just watching, it is not resisting.

Quantum | Mon, 06/11/2012 - 21:43
Isha's picture

Intuition

I agree intuition can be dangerous. You must always exercise the strength of the rational human mind enlightened or not. This is because intuition is also an animal instinct and if you are innocent to it, feel a natural flow of your actions would greatly attribute your personality and make you attractive, there is nothing wrong with your slow paced, awkward and thought about processes before you act.

Isha | Tue, 06/12/2012 - 10:09
Christmas's picture

What is enlightenment?

Enlightenment, if there is such, isn't a concept, conceptual. Concepts (words) point to exactly nothing. Stop conceptualizing and perhaps you have achieved enlightenment. "Enlightenment" is what we were 0ne hundred years ago, prior to concepts; prior to knowing "I am" and the world. It's been said many times, "Call off the search," and "Who is the seeker", "The seeker is the sought." But does that advice satisfy us? Or will we continue to read books, to seek the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. The mind can only know what it knows. It cannot know what it doesn't know. Is "enlightenment" a knowable state? It has been said, "Those who say they know, don't know. Those you say they don't know, know." A hundred years ago we didn't know.

Christmas | Thu, 01/19/2017 - 03:59
danielgarrison's picture

Comment

Hello! Don't you know the meaning of "enlightenment"? Come on, guys, there is no need to get upset! Here is the explanation - hopefully, you will find it useful!

danielgarrison | Fri, 02/10/2017 - 14:06