A cheat sheet to recognize a bogus guru

abra's picture



Average: 4.5 (61 votes)

With so many faked gurus around, I think we should construct a cheat sheet with guidelines based on each one's experience on how to recognize (or at least suspect) a bogus guru...

My contribution:

* Too many miracles, too much emphasis on sidhis
* Too much intellectual work, too much mind work
* Too many people around, too many followers (!)
* Too much fears, too much karma and morality

P.S. You can get more ideas by browsing the largest and most detailed directory of gurus and spiritual teachers at Find your Guru. See there in particular the pro/con opinions posted by users at each Guru profile.



john's picture

Sorry to say but people are stupid

Sorry to say but the masses are stupid.

Even if you give them guidelines they will follow bogus gurus the same way they follow bogus organized religions that betrayed their founders (Christianity & the crusades VS. Jesus & "Turn the other cheek", Judism & the occult rabbis (mekubalim) and their charms VS. Moses & "Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image" etc.)

john | Wed, 06/11/2008 - 19:58
kash's picture

It all depends on faith and intensity

Well, It all depends on how much u faith put on some one
and how much is ur intensity!!! Bhagvan mahirishi ramnana achieved enlightenment through only worship Kali diety.
Once u put complete faith or trust on someone ur faith works
not that person's advice.

kash | Mon, 05/04/2009 - 10:33
kain's picture

Enabling killing of humans

" thou shall not kill human beings " - and still there is so much killing in the name of religion and spirituality incited by religion leaders and gurus - these who dare to preach killing of others, no matter what are the reasons, are bogus spiritual figures

kain | Sat, 10/31/2009 - 20:49
Kalidas's picture

killing

What of the exploitation and the suffering of our sentient friends, what if one calls himself a Sat Guru and still participates in this behavior, meat dairy ect

Kalidas | Sat, 10/05/2013 - 10:24
mrkotians's picture

A change in the comment...

It cannot be called as stupidity. It is ignorance. People are ignorant...

mrkotians | Wed, 05/19/2010 - 00:46
NIDHI PARKASH's picture

O. K..>>>

Correct it is.

NIDHI PARKASH | Wed, 05/19/2010 - 14:58
shira's picture

Even if...

Even if a guru knows how to pause into a deep meaningful silence, it does not necessarily mean that he is enlightened...

Even if a guru knows how to gaze sharply into your eyes, it does not necessarily mean that he is enlightened...

Even if a guru knows how to give a blissful long smile, it does not necessarily mean that he is enlightened...

Even if you are with a faked guru, it does not necessarily mean that you will not benefit and grow with him...

shira | Wed, 06/11/2008 - 22:05
SriSriYogiBaba's picture

Even if....

Even if you are so desperate to escape yourself that you project the ideal of enlightenment onto someone, it does not necessarily mean that you'll get back anything more than your own reflected fantasies.

SriSriYogiBaba | Fri, 08/22/2008 - 12:05
arlenja's picture

even if...

...you mark it desperate to search for your enlightment in any way that might be good for you, it does not mean you will follow your way better....

arlenja | Thu, 12/23/2010 - 02:20
Gilana's picture

Being a disciple

I am a disciple. The experience has been the richest learning experience of my life. I am placed squarely in the arena against my blocks and reactions. If I have a question about them, I can ask. I am encouraged when I go forward and I am discouraged when I go backward. I have other disciples to talk to and they understand what I am going through. I can express unbearable pain, fault, stupidity and bliss to the group and there is no judgement, since they are all in the same boat. My guru does not condescend...instead he challenges me constantly. Hard. And I get clearer as a result.

Listen....a true guru is like the best sports coach ever. He watches your swing and then helps you correct it. You may have a problem with his methods, but realize your problems dictated them.

There is no "projecting," or "idealization," or anything else that are your mind's perceived problems. Do you idealize your coach? He's enlightened. so? Shouldn't everybody be? He's willing to help me. I'm grateful.
And, if you are truly enlightened, you will realize that it is the most wonderful experience to be close to somebody else who is also enlightened. So "projecting" is not a problem.

If I have a problem with greed, he will demand money. If I have a problem with standing up for myself, he will try to demean me. If I have a problem with anger, he will try to provoke me. Whatever the problem, he will apply the antidote until I choose to change. Then, naturally, the method will no longer "get to" me. And I am free of it forever.

Of course it's painful. How much are you willing to go through to straighten yourself out? To become more what you want to be? If you are so straight that you don't need help, then he won't get to you at all.

What is the problem?

Gilana | Sun, 01/01/2012 - 00:13
hecouldntpossibly's picture

Thumbs up

"If I have a problem with greed, he will demand money. If I have a problem with standing up for myself, he will try to demean me. If I have a problem with anger, he will try to provoke me. Whatever the problem, he will apply the antidote until I choose to change. Then, naturally, the method will no longer "get to" me. And I am free of it forever."

That is the most accurate expression of a guru's behaviour I have encountered on here. He is nothing/ no thing. Just anything he needs to be without worrying about apparent conflicts in his behaviour because it is only a mirror of the conflicted behaviour around him. A very nice post.

hecouldntpossibly | Sat, 06/30/2012 - 04:08
donnaapple's picture

fake gurus

i like this... don't we meet fake gurus all the time. i am a fake guru. i do not know how to cast away darkness although i seek the light. although i am not a guru. is all of humanity either a guru or a fake guru? playing with words because maybe the meaning is floating somewhere in between the spaces of words...

donnaapple | Tue, 08/11/2009 - 20:26
Vallalar's picture

True guru

A true guru will make disciples to realize him within them.

Soul,
satheesh.M

http://www.vallalyaar.com

Vallalar | Tue, 09/07/2010 - 08:19
kain's picture

That was really good : When the quru takes a pause

That was really good : When the quru takes a pause...

You are so right.

All those who said here about your comment above that it is a matter of games of words or that projection are typical seekers that trying to defend their hopeless hope in their master when unconsciously knowing that he has these bogus traits. It is very hard to acknowledge that your guru is phony after all the trust and certainty you had with him. The realizations and divorce usually come too late.

kain | Mon, 09/28/2009 - 14:03
lamasam's picture

yaa:fake or real guru

im agree with u.it is the belief/connectedness that gives u result even if u r with a fake guru.but u consider him as true guru.really.----would like to chat more withu.
sam.

lamasam | Tue, 04/19/2011 - 13:41
Spotless's picture

The perfect guru

Shira's comment is so true - even if you are with a fake Guru - it does not mean you will not benefit and grow.

How many times have you been a fake guru?

How many times have you talked to your friends about your cultivation and told "truths" that you have no real experience with?

Your understanding will fade into knowing that you know nothing until you come to the end of trying to know.

Spotless | Fri, 05/24/2013 - 05:31
solo's picture

Warnin signs for corrupted gurus

I like the warning signs provided in the wonderful book "From Here to Nirvana" by Anne Cushman & Jerry Jones.

They mention, more or less, the following signs for corrupted spiritual groups and gurus:

* Taboos - forbidden questions, doubts, reservations.

* Secrets - only a small inner circle holds hardcore of information.

* Spiritual Cloning - all disciples talk, dress, walk, behave the same and like their guru.

* Group Think - no place for individual perspectives or expressions of individual emotions.

* The Chosen - Feeling of complete exclusivity over truth against other traditions and gurus.

* No Graduation - you will always need the guru and the group.

* Production Line - disregarding personal differences on the path.

* Loyalty Tests - followers are required to prove their loyalty by doing things that contradict their moral believes.

* Double Face - daily conduct and public face do not reflect the guru's and group's internal behavior.

* One-dimensional Perception - one explanation to all, all other possibilities are rejected (e.g. if you feel sick then it is the wish of the guru, when you recovered - it was also the wish of the guru).

And the final and for me the strongest sign:

* NO SENSE OF HUMOR.

solo | Sat, 06/14/2008 - 16:03
Omkaradatta's picture

Why humor...?

Why is humor so necessary? Spirituality isn't always a light-core thing, and humor is only needed if there's some sort of tension in the "air", isn't it?

http://www.omkaradatta.info

Omkaradatta | Sun, 08/31/2008 - 16:20
Phroggy's picture

Nothing needed

It's not a question of what is needed. The sage is not on a mission to fix a world gone horribly wrong. It is already beautiful and perfect and it may be in the nature of the vehicle to share what is realized with a compassion that does not come from pity, a love that does not come from fear, and a joy that does not come from sorrow but out of the sharing itself. Humor is not used as a tool to break tension in the effort to accomplish a task. What is to be accomplished in perfection?

Humor is somehow a part of the natural expression when all else that is illusion is stripped away, in the same way that Love is simply present in the absence of a person who fears.

In the midst of man's suffering, there is no sufferer. In the frenzy of man's activity, there is nowhere to go. In man's struggle to improve himself, there is nobody to improve. Awareness talks to Awareness about waking up, and it was never asleep. If there is any effort needed surely it is to keep from laughing at the absudity.

Phroggy | Sun, 08/31/2008 - 17:17
nancy pro's picture

Humor is an energy

Exactly. You develop through friction, and friction generates tension as a by product. Humor is a great means to cool down the heat of the tension.

I think the above humor criterion meant whether humor is ALLOWED or not. When humor is allowed, it always there, it always springs, like happiness.

Humor is an energy, a natural energy with a unique quality, an energy of freedom, a relaxing energy. This energy was not allowed for instance in the Third Reich and in the Soviet Union and it is not a coincidence.

Humor and spiritual dedication are not mutually exclusive. On the contrary. Being too serious is most frequently a mask needed to be removed as part of the spiritual development.

Lastly, I think that wherever there is no humor, there are no proportions and no bliss. Reality is taken too seriously as if there is nothing beyond otherwise why not to laugh wholeheartedly.

nancy pro | Sun, 08/31/2008 - 17:19
bonya basu's picture

Humor is a Art!!

Being spiritual is the most innate...natural quality of a each human being.Humor makes the environment lighter.Even the serious matter can be delivered in the form of humour.
It is a great art presenting difficult task in a most acceptable way.

bonya basu | Sun, 01/01/2012 - 11:05
happy's picture

Exactly!

When I meet a spiritual person who is too serious, who takes life too seriously, I know that he hasn't realized yet the core spiritual essence or happened to forget it.

This includes me - when I notice myself in that situation, I know that I need to stop and start to remember.

happy | Sun, 01/01/2012 - 11:52
divine intervention's picture

This is a super fantastic list!

This is a super fantastic list!

divine intervention | Wed, 12/31/2008 - 00:16
kain's picture

If you have money put a detective

So you agree my idea to put a detective.

Some do it on their spouse so why not for our Soul?

kain | Mon, 09/28/2009 - 14:09
sisi's picture

too much going against the

too much going against the stream (effort)

- or -

too much flowing with the stream (laziness)

sisi | Mon, 06/23/2008 - 10:03
santthosh kumaar's picture

THE TRUE SPRITUAL MASTER

Santthosh
SPIRITUAL QUEST IS A PERSONAL ADVENTURE. THE GURU IS NOT NEEDED IN PURSUIT OF TRUTH. YOU MAY REQUIRE GUIDANCE. ALL EGO BASED SO-CALLED SPIRITUALITY IS NOT THE MEANS FOR SELF REALIZATION.

A SPIRITUAL MASTER IS ONE WHO WILL NOT ACCEPT ANYONE AS HIS DISCIPLE BUT HE WILL GUIDE HIM AS HIS OWN FRIEND. HE WILL NOT ENTERTAIN GURU GLORIFICATION OR INDULGE IN RELIGIOUS OR YOGIC PRACTICE AND GOD GLORIFICATION.
HE NEVER SPEAKS OF GOD AND INDULGE IN GOD GLORIFICATION. HE ONLY GUIDES THE SEEKER TOWARDS THE TRUE SELF WHICH IS SPIRIT OR ATAMAN.
HE NEVER INDULGES IN PERFORMING MIRACLES NOR QUOTES RELIGIOUS SCRIPTURES TO PROVE HIS VIEW POINT.
MIRACLES,KARMA,HEAVEN,HELL,PARADISE,SIN EVIL,REBIRTH AND MORALITY ARE RELIGIOUS FABLES. ALL RELIGIOUS CODE OF CONDUCT ARE GOOD FOR WORLDLY LIFE. BUT IN SPIRITUAL PURSUIT THEY ARE OF NO VALUE.
THE SPIRITUAL MASTER NEVER WEARS ANY RELIGIOUS ROBE HE IS FREE FROM ALL RELIGIOUS FABLES.
BIFURCATE SPIRITUALITY AND YOGA THEN YOU WILL BE ABLE TO FIND A SPIRITUAL MASTER WHO WILL BE ABLE TO GUIDE YOU AND HELP YOU TO REALIZE THE TRUE SELF IN LESSER TIME AND EFFORT.
A REAL SPIRITUAL MASTER WILL NEVER CONDEMN THE RELIGION AND ITS GOD AND GURUS BUT HE WILL SAY THEY ARE PART OF THE ILLUSORY EXPERIENCE OF DIVERSITY.

santthosh kumaar | Mon, 06/30/2008 - 06:58
gora's picture

Thanks

Thanks .I am grateful and thankful to the Almighty Power who has given us such a great soul to show and lead us through the path of truth.

gora | Tue, 01/26/2010 - 12:01
nancy pro's picture

The guru's voting and pro/con opinions

Check at the guru's profile the voting of users and the pro/con arguments about him.

Google the name of the guru and see forum topics and other posts with opinions about him. Very recommended is the Gururatings group at Yahoo.

nancy pro | Sat, 07/05/2008 - 18:38
Phroggy's picture

Zombies-R-Us

"Very recommended is the Gururatings group at Yahoo."

Don't ask the sleepwalkers for advice about the Awakened.

Phroggy | Sun, 08/31/2008 - 17:36
sahaja's picture

Response

How about bogus critics of gurus? Can you make a sheet on that as well? Thanks. Looking forward to seeing it.

sahaja | Fri, 07/11/2008 - 01:47
leo's picture

Open a forum thread on that...

I'm not sure I understand what you meant but anyway it sounds interesting: open a thread and explain what you mean...

leo | Mon, 07/14/2008 - 22:22
Omkaradatta's picture

I disagree...

I disagree on this 'cheat sheet' idea - there's no such thing in "real life" ;-). We should follow our own best wisdom, from moment to moment, not some predefined formula. If we do that, we're just as "guilty" of being bogus as the gurus we purport to label.

Life follows no rules, has no easy, predefined path. If we're after the truth, then we don't get a rug underneath us, as tempting as it may be...

http://www.omkaradatta.info

Omkaradatta | Sun, 07/13/2008 - 16:40
Wahido Theriaca's picture

Come on... be real...

Dear ones,

I think we should be a bit more real and honest to ourselves and see that we cannot speak about what we dont really know. How can one speak about enlightened people if one is not there? again and again there are so many deep rooted belief systems in spirituality, its just amazing. how can you speak about love if you were never in love? this is what is happening... and then you say how to recognize a true master? in my opinion you can only do this if you're there, come on, be honest, be real.

Love,

Wahido

www.Wahido.com

Wahido Theriaca | Mon, 07/14/2008 - 20:52
leo's picture

Come on... Trust your instincts...

You don't have to be a flower to tell a blossoming flower from a plastic one...

You don't need to be a painter to tell a true talented painter from a fake amateur...

You don't need to be a singer to appreciate a good singer...

You have this thing called instinct or common sense that vibrates when you recognize aesthetics.

You can use this very same instinct also to recognize spiritual aesthetics.

You trust this voice in every aspect of life, why not when looking for a guiding master?

It can be very dangerous or at least a pity not to use it when you search for a guru.

leo | Mon, 07/14/2008 - 22:19
Quantum's picture

I can't sing...

..but I can tell when someone sings out of tune.

So, I guess I agree with you.

Quantum | Sun, 01/17/2010 - 20:25
sisi's picture

This plays to the hands of

This plays to the hands of the very organized mind that wants to keep you in the domain. Sometimes, it will push strongly to the selection of a bogus guru for that reason. You have no other choice.

It doesn't imply that there are only formulas but a path and suggestions of others and techniques have proved to be a crucial factor.

sisi | Sat, 01/10/2009 - 09:57
Nityagiri's picture

One receives the Guru one deserves...

It is said in great traditions, one receives the Guru, one deserves. Eg Your own karma brings you to the correct Guru for that particular time.

Nityagiri | Tue, 07/15/2008 - 03:38
madan_gautam's picture

true guru

you can not recognize a true guru as you do not have that ability. only a guru can recognize you.
and for me there is guru only nothing true and false about him/her.
if as you say false you will yourself come to know about it after sometime.
OM

madan_gautam | Sun, 09/07/2008 - 06:31
Omkaradatta's picture

Some ideas about gurus...

Maybe there's no such thing as a true or bogus guru, only a helpful/unhelpful one. But I'll say one thing: A true guru need not declare as one, but can teach anywhere and anytime. He/she can talk to people on the streets, spreading the truth. Maybe you meet him/her, maybe you don't. The "trappings" of being a guru mean nothing, only that this guru is speaking authentically, truly.

I'd say read some Nisargadatta and Ramana Maharshi, become familiar with the basic ideas. Also, why stick to just one guru? Compare many, see what they are saying in common and what they aren't. Get a basic idea of what Advaita (nondualism) is trying to say.

Also, I would distrust gurus who charge money, period. There's nothing wrong with money, but nobody exchanges truth for cash... the truth is common, open to all. Don't buy water at the sea-shore, ask someone to point the way to the ocean.

And finally, I'll add two comments from my guru, Nisargadatta Maharaj:

"The aim is to awaken yourself to the faith in the self, 'I am'. That is the entire purpose. So whatever is inducive to that development you may accept. Suppose you have faith in a living guru, then accept a living guru. If you have faith in a guru who has left his body, accept that guru." - from "Experience of Nothingness"

"There are no important events for a jnani, except when somebody reaches the highest goal. Then only his heart rejoices. All else is of no concern." (from "I Am That")

Please remember to thank your guru (if in the body) ;-).

http://www.omkaradatta.info

Omkaradatta | Sun, 09/07/2008 - 08:08
Gilana's picture

Teacher vs. Guru

The guru found me. Somehow, mystically, I was drawn by coincidence to him. What he said seemed more personally true to me than could ever be expressed by a human being. I heard music in it, I heard earth quaking and stars colliding as he spoke. It is mystical.

(And by the way, he speaks almost too ordinarily...unless you concentrate it's easy to miss his point. There is noooo drama in his voice, even when I think there should be. Also, the words he spoke I have heard a thousand times before...I have even spoken them to others before I met him.)

Things happen that have never happened before, and I'm old! And I've kept track! I have admitted things and understood things that I thought (and hoped, so desperately hoped) I would go to my grave avoiding. Things keep arranging themselves so that it is unavoidable. I try to dig in my heals, and I skid in the sand, wailing, after the pull of the truth,.

You said, "But I'll say one thing: A true guru need not declare as one, but can teach anywhere and anytime." Gurus don't teach. They transform. The words, and even the concepts, are only an excuse to get you to be near them, to fall into step with their vibe, which will transform you.

You said, "Also, why stick to just one guru?" Well, okay...but how many gurus are you going to molecularly chime with? How many are you going to ask the universe to provide? Where is your gratitude and surrender? Where is your love? When do you switch, and why? How do you know that the ego is not running?

Lastly you said, "Also, I would distrust gurus who charge money, period. There's nothing wrong with money, but nobody exchanges truth for cash... the truth is common, open to all. Don't buy water at the sea-shore, ask someone to point the way to the ocean."

My question and it really is a question to which I hope you will answer is: How is the guru supposed to live on earth if he doesn't get money? Seriously, is he supposed to manifest food and live under a tree? Or should he divide his time and energy between earning a living and guru-ing? Do we not owe these realized ones some small comfort in exchange for staying on earth (which, if they are realized, they do not have to do) and working with those who are asleep? Have you ever tried to wake a teen-ager up over and over and over and over and over...just to have them go back to sleep? Fun or frustrating?

Personally, I give money, and time, and sadhana, and love and everything else I can think of to try to get him the best of everything (as much as I can come up with), just to thank him for his first glance--that glance that sent an electric volt through me and sped everything up. The glance that told me God is alive an well on earth and functioning through a fellow human being. I will have to come up with more to do for him for everything that has followed.

Namaste to you for your posts, for your sincerity and for your wisdom. I have followed your posts, and I don't always agree, but I recognize sincerity in his appreciation for truth.

Gilana | Sun, 01/17/2010 - 21:54
gora's picture

Accept your view

Accept your view .Very important think:- “you can not recognize a true guru as you do not have that ability”. when my faith is true (demand less) then I fined true guru. I believe myself to be the most fortunate to have received the blessings of a Sathguru who has given me a completely different outlook. Then life becomes a dance, a song, a drink! Then I bow to every saint. Then I offer my greetings to all of them, every one of them is to be worshiped but this heart has been opened by Suraj Baba…..so I would say that maybe the looks & works of the Gurus seem different, their themes are same, they all walk with the same principle, a common eternal power is working through them. There is the saying the one who knows recognizes all.
If we have got our hearts connected to a Sathguru the we automatically get connected to all Sathguru. Then where is the question of argument. When spring arrives nobody argues about it. These realizations I received from Suraj Baba.
हमे नयी आंख चहिए, नया ह्रदय चहिए ।पुराना ह्रदय, पुरानी आंख, नये को कैसे पहचनेगी? और इसीलिए हम चुक जते है।और परमात्मा सदा नया आवतरण है।प्रतिपल वह नया होकर आ रहा है।उसकि कला चुक नहि गई है। जिनकी कला चुक जती है, वे ही पुराने को दोहराते है। परमात्मा अनंत कला है।वह कभी नहीं चुकेगा।उसे पुराने को दोहराने की जरुरत न पडेगी।वह रोज नये को जन्मता जायेगा। पुराने को तो तभी दोहराते है जब हम और कुछ नहीं कर पाते।

gora | Mon, 02/21/2011 - 05:21
divine intervention's picture

too good, too bad and too much

When you feel with him too good or too bad.

When he tries too much. When he cares too much (!). When he is attached too much to having you with him

divine intervention | Wed, 12/31/2008 - 00:14
doo's picture

over enthusiasm

I posted it in a comment in a blog and it is worthwhile to paste it also here:

In India they advise you to distant from someone who offers you his services in the street without you first approaching him and specifically and directly asking him for his services.

The same applies to your search for a guru...

doo | Thu, 01/08/2009 - 21:16
sisi's picture

talking about the faults of other gurus

When the guru talks too much (or even at all) about the faults of other gurus, why other gurus are not good, why other gurus are a fake, why his teachings and path are better than those of other gurus.

sisi | Sat, 01/10/2009 - 09:51
anony17's picture

Readers may be interested in

Readers may be interested in googling 'Guruphiliac'...

anony17 | Tue, 01/27/2009 - 06:33
Michael ji Ramaprasad's picture

A sure way

When the "guru","Avatar", "Prophet" ect shows an attachment
to their own image. They have this fear of the loss of control over their followers. They claim to be the sole possessor of truth and the portray a negative view towards questioning. They tend to portray those who leave their cult as apostates, sinners, and mislead. They mainly focus on the blessings of heeding their words and the damnation that will follow for doing other wise. He may not practice what he preaches and when caught will not apologize or recognize his error but will invent a reason why he may do so and his followers cannot. He wishes to be served.

A true guru is a respecter of all persons. He teaches by example and feels no necessity for a following. He enjoys helping others and has no ill feelings to those who do not share his point of view. He is humble and seeks to serve whether then to be served. He loves unconditionally and does not expect love in return for those around him. He recognizes his faults and often will help others to do the same in a loving manner. He does not have to be perfect, but he does realize this. His words will be simple so that even a child will comprehend it. He will at times appear to be child like, in innocence. He has a sense of humor. Although he may receive money for his services you know he does not serve money. He is your equal in his eyes although he may be great in yours, he will be quick to remind you of your incorrect view.

this has been my experience.

Michaelji Ramaprasad

Michael ji Rama... | Wed, 01/28/2009 - 18:47
Omkaradatta's picture

Nisargadatta

> A true guru is a respecter of all persons.

"You, as the person, imagine that the Guru is interested in you as a person. Not at all. To him you are a nuisance and a hindrance to be done away with. He actually aims at your elimination as a factor in consciousness." -- Nisargadatta

"A Guru can show the way back home, to your real self. What has this to do with the character, or temperament of the person he appears to be? Does he not clearly tell you that he is not the person? The only way you can judge is by the change in yourself when you are in his company. If you feel more at peace and happy, if you understand yourself with more than usual clarity and depth, it means you have met the right man." -- Nisargadatta

http://www.omkaradatta.info

Omkaradatta | Tue, 02/03/2009 - 15:43
Phroggy's picture

~

Yes, the notion of respect has shown up here a few times recently, and while there is no particular reason to disrespect, what demands respect is the very imagined entity that must be revealed as false and therefore not in need of or deserving of anything.

The love is not for the person, but the Self. The honor is not for one's personal sensibilities, beliefs, acomplishments but for the undifferentiated Divine nature present in all. What is being spoken to is not the mind, but the presence that is silently aware of both the mind and the words of the guru. The guru would much prefer that 'you' not attend his Satsang, but rather come empty and listen without listening. This is how much the guru respects 'you'. His goal is to obliterate 'you' at the earliest opportunity.

Phroggy | Tue, 02/03/2009 - 21:45
michaelmorley61's picture

If you want to know about your Guru see what his toilet is like

I think it was Sri Ramakrishna who said, If you want to know about your Guru see what his toilet is like. I am not being disrespectful but I think he's right.

It is easier for a camel to go through the Eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God. A guru obviously has expenses especially if he's travelling to teach, but helicopters, rolls Royces and the like, come on!!!! give the money to the poor. Put your money where your mouth is.

If you have a rich guru ask to see his toilet then enquire from him if he is prepared to give everything away. Ask him for some money...then you will know.

Actually its only our ego the false self that needs a guru.

We are our own guru, the truth is within, (and without) when the ego dissolves the ever present arises, there is then nothing to be shown or sought........(it just is).

michaelmorley61 | Tue, 02/03/2009 - 16:10
Gilana's picture

Judgements

So....is it your assertion that the material world and the spiritual world are separate? That you can only be rich in one aspect of creation if you are poor in the other. That would explain your apparent wish that a "true" guru be poor. There are many such people, not many of whom have gotten any attention from the rich and powerful people of this world--who we all wish would pay more attention to God.

And...do you really think that pouring money on the poor is going to change this world? Hasn't worked so far. Isn't it a tenant of spiritual teaching that changing the poverty inside of you is more effective than the hypocrite who puts money in the Sunday plate? You seem to be putting your attention on Osho's wealth...you may try receiving his message some time, just as a experiment. Then I would love to hear your opinion.

Lastly it is indeed our "false self" that needs a guru. As long as you are your own guru you will stay you.

Gilana | Sun, 10/04/2009 - 03:57
RandomStu's picture

Re: Judgements

> is it your assertion that the material world and the
> spiritual world are separate?

Everything is made by thinking. For those who make and hold ideas of "material" and "spiritual," they get separation. But originally, there's no separation.

Stuart
http://stuart-randomthoughts.blogspot.com/
http://home.comcast.net/~sresnick2/booboo.htm

RandomStu | Sun, 10/04/2009 - 20:54
Quantum's picture

So true...

"We are our own guru, the truth is within, (and without) when the ego dissolves the ever present arises, there is then nothing to be shown or sought........(it just is)."

You said it so well. My intuition is my own guru.

And more jokingly (but with a measure of seriousness): I AM (is) the High Priest, Temple, and Devotee of my own religion.

Still, again, you said it so succinctly. Thanks for posting that wise statement. I will quote it again because I want it to be the last word on this comment:

""We are our own guru, the truth is within, (and without) when the ego dissolves the ever present arises, there is then nothing to be shown or sought........(it just is)."

Quantum | Sun, 01/17/2010 - 23:18
B-friend's picture

Inner Guru

If the Inner Guru is Ever Present and the All, then how is the false guru not our guru too? How is the false guru separate from us? If all that exists is from The Within, then the false guru is our Inner Guru too. It's a bit of a head scratcher I know.

It seems we cannot escape the All no matter the form.

The only guru I ever kneeled to fits the form of both the realized saint and the false guru, having the grand characteristics of omnipotency, omnipresence, and omnisciency(all witnessed myself), provided powerful meditation(not witnessed myself), had a very large bank account, very large charitable organization, a bunch of properties, and of course is known as the avatar of our time here to give humanity the greatest opportunity in perhaps millions of lifetimes at achieving liberation..And an impeccable virtuous, wise, and fierce personality to go along with it all. Me being me of course, this guru failed my requirements. lol

The result of having witnessed such a being and seeing the teacher as a trap provided a great battle ground for my mind. Only God could be slick enough to provide such a gift, no? With this battle, I could be ripped open to allow God to create in me whatever God wanted and destroy whatever God wanted. The lesson? BE CAREFUL WHAT YOU ASK FOR! LOL

So false guru, true guru..They are only one guru when all you seek is the One Guru. I still have an extreme distaste for liars and thieves with siddhis and intellect who call themselves gurus though. Oh well

B-friend | Mon, 01/18/2010 - 01:08
Quantum's picture

True vs Fale, good vs evil

Both sides of the same coin. Realm of the opposites.

Being is absolute. Has no opposite. It cannot be described. It could, it is not it...

..well, I won't bother to rewrite that book.

Some inner silence, is beautiful quiet solitude, allows..well, me in partucular, to commune with my own soul.

You know the body is a temple of the holy spirit. At least I believe it is. Hence, a desire of my heart is
to dwell in the house of the Lord all the days of my life.

Bring the rational mind analyze all that I just said and it becomes banal.

Just singing God's praises here, Broh.

In Praise and Gratitude, Broh.

Pax

Quantum | Mon, 01/18/2010 - 03:18
zoya's picture

No love around

More than anything else, love must be dominant around a real one.

He can be tough, he may be strict, he may be even cruel and abusive, he may even look dishonest, he may even look like a crook, he may even not be still and serene. But love must still be there, clearly evident.

Love in his presence, love in his speech, love in his gaze, love in his actions, love in and beyond and above and below and especially in between.

It is such a total energy that even if your heart is closed you will notice its presence with no doubt. If you are not sure, it is not there.

Make sure that what you notice is love and not any of these other vibrations and excitements that so well masquerade as love and that are so common around so many gurus.

How to recognize? See if you feel it steadily for more than one hour, for more than one day; see if you feel it steadily regardless of content: regardless of what is said, regardless of what is done, regardless of who you are at every moment.

zoya | Fri, 02/27/2009 - 10:06
Gilana's picture

Real or Not Real

Hi, I'm new here and this conversation interested me.

I have a guru and the only test I have ever considered important was: how is he affecting me? Am I moving closer to illumination (God, truth, etc) or further away? Am I changing in ways I couldn't alone?

My guru does not fit any expectation I would have had, had I been looking for a guru, except that the words he chose to speak indicated truth that I recognized. I mean the "flavor" of the truth. (In explaining truth, someone said "The ocean tastes salty anywhere." He was salty.) As far as love is concerned, I don't know for sure, but I doubt you would notice his love if your heart is closed...but then, I doubt you would notice anything much from anyone. And my guru doesn't always smile at you; sometimes he is downright cranky (note: might be my stuff...). He blends in, you wouldn't notice him first, he's funny, he's just "a guy." He's not cuddly-wuddly, or other-worldly; he's the guy walking to the bus stop in front of you.

But his love is there to be felt, radiating like an early morning sunrise: soft, steady, increasing, undramatic, unalterable. Just like he is always there, soft, steady, undramatic, unalterable. And, my ego is being infiltrated by that love. Hillsides of beliefs, ideas, concepts things I know and believe are falling away, while my ego goes screaming after them desparately trying to pick them up and patch them back in.

He'll work like a dog to help you get to the heart of what you think is the matter, but he knows all along that nothing is wrong with you, or anything else. He just wants to help us get to the place where we can see that, accept that it's true and relax. He'll keep working with me until I can drop the "yeah, right" after the statement "nothing is wrong."

I might be wrong, but I who cares? I'm changing. It's up to me and he's helping.

Gilana | Thu, 03/12/2009 - 19:19
archana.anchal's picture

Prepare urself and u will recieve the grace......

As per all the scriptures and all the great masters......You cannot find a Guru, Guru can only find you..
What's there in ur hand is to prepare urself and make urself worthy and sincere enough to receive the grace of God as well as the Guru....
though God is one yet he is everywhere, in everyone of us.......we just need to remove the dust, make ourselves purified enough to recognize our true identity....
Instead of worrying about finding a guru, we must focus on our purification, here purification refers to out thoughts our intentions........
Few of us may not have Guru, in a physical form, but everyone one of us have our guiding masters and our guiding angels, they keep guiding us in the best possible way......
We can acknowledge their presence and their grace only when we are purified enough to see the subtle divine love and care that is always being showered on us.........

Best Regards

archana.anchal | Fri, 03/13/2009 - 04:34
joy's picture

More than the calf wants to suck, the cow wants to suckle

This is an important and common sign for a bogus guru or a teacher: He is too enthusiastic to have you, to guide you. He will push himself on you with his advices, authoritative knowledge of truth.

You notice very soon that more than he wants to help you, he wants to help his ego. You will see that he doesn't see you, his eyes or written words do not recognize you, he is in some other place and only uses you, usually unintentionally because he himself is more unconscious than you.

It is like that case most of us are familiar with: the obsessive lover that does not really love you - you are dating someone that wants you obsessively with jealousy and rage but one day you look at his eyes and realize that you are not there and never been there, he/she are looking for something else and you are only functioning as a means for achiving this something - self assurance, fulfillment of dreams, fulfillment of social demands, etc.

Anyone experienced with the guru scene is familiar with this: a real guru dearly cares about you but will stay aloof. He knows that it is your responsibility and if you need to be assisted by him you will approach or rather be drawn to approach him. He has no self interest whatsoever and so you are considered equally for his love as anybody else, who ever comes comes and if no one comes it is also fine.

This warning sign of too much enthusiasm is especially common with self-appointed teachers. He/She will advertise himself implicitly or explicitly, put a website for himself, put the link to his website in every article or comment he posts on the net, and so on.

joy | Mon, 05/04/2009 - 09:37
salim's picture

Beware of the perfect plastic guru

See Plastic Flowers - or - The law of imperfect perfect

Don't pick the perfect plastic guru but the imperfect genuine.

How to tell the difference? Exactly the same as you tell the difference between the plastic flower and the genuine flower - there is something very imperfect clearly felt in the too perfect.

salim | Sun, 06/14/2009 - 11:04
bonya basu's picture

Perfection within Imperfection

See perfection within imperfection.If you watch nature you will find lot of imperfections,but within that imperfection somewhere there is a perfection,to find this perfection,one has to cultivate the mind.
If you read about SHRI RAMAKRISHNA PARAMHANSA,his activities were not normal and never understood by common men.What is there behind that imperfection was understood by some highly evolved soles.Even SWAMI VIVEKANANDA,could not understood him at the begining.
Beauty lies in imperfection.

bonya basu | Wed, 08/19/2009 - 10:52
Phroggy's picture

Imperfection is seen within

Imperfection is seen within Perfection.
The imperfections perceived within nature are reflective of the human mind perceiving it's own imperfections, but it is a misperception.

What is perceived as imperfection is a concept only, which is in dualistic opposition to the concept of perfection, niether of which are ultimately True.

Nature is not in opposition to itself and there are no mistakes. All of life is reflected perfectly for the mind. It is only the content of the reflection mirroring the content of mind, which is Perfection.

Why is there imperfection in the world? Because we see imperfection. Correcting this 'error' (contextually speaking) in perception is the current focus of most of mankind.

Phroggy | Wed, 08/19/2009 - 17:18
madan_gautam's picture

Why is there imperfection in the world?

Why is there imperfection in the world?
Because there is lot of dust on this mirror and one can only remove it from deep meditation & full Awakening.
OM

madan_gautam | Thu, 08/20/2009 - 02:41
mbnarayana's picture

In search of guru

There is no acid test to test guru.Instead, guru will test the ability of disciple before accepting to his fold.Only Vivekanda asked his guru a question whether he saw god before accepting him guru.You can test the knowledge of a loukika(wordly) guru but not a spiritual guru.Nature will arrange you the right guru at the right time best suited to your temperment& quest.Even search is also not necessary.Guru himself will attract you like a magnet and takes you in to his fold.But after entering in to his fold,let us not doubt whether he is original or fake.As long as you are totally surrenderd to him your yoga and kshema will be looked after by him.An iron piece becomes a magnet if it is kept longer in a powerful magned field.Like wise a sadhaka becomes a guru if he spends the presence of his guru.But the spending should be meaningful,not doubtful

mbnarayana | Wed, 07/08/2009 - 06:18
shaan's picture

Fake guru test

TAKE THE FALSE GURU TEST. If seven or more of the following describes your guru or spiritual teacher, then unfortunately he or she may not be be as enlightened or good for your soul as you would like to believe:

1.States his or her own enlightenment: The wisest masters tend not to state their own enlightenment or perfection for they know that it is both unhelpful to themselves and to their students. The false teachers often make this claim because they have little else on offer to attract followers.

2.Is unable to take criticism: False teachers strongly dislike either personal criticism or criticism of their teaching; they do not take kindly to ordinary unenlightened individuals questioning them. They or their organisations will even undertake multi-million dollar law suits to stop ex-members from spilling the beans.

3.Acts omnipotently with no accountability: Some spiritual communities are run like concentration camps, with guru and his chosen ones acting like Gestapo officers. Unjust or outrageous behaviour by the guru is passed off as what is needed to help the followers grow (how kind). These are the dangerous gurus who have often severely damaged their students. A real master respects your will even if he or she understands that your particular decisions may not be in your interest, and he or she will act accountably to an ethical code of conduct.

4.Focuses on enlightenment itself rather than teaching the path leading to it: It is amazing how much false gurus have to say about enlightenment. They argue their points in the same way that the scholars in the middle ages argued how many angels could sit on the head of a pin. Any fool can talk about the end goal because what is said is irrefutable to most of your listeners. What is skillful is guiding those listeners to having awakening within themselves. The real teacher focuses on the path and strictly avoids any talk on enlightenment.

5.Does not practice what is preached: Contrary to spiritual myth, you don't reach a point of realization whereby you can then start acting mindlessly. If a teacher preaches love and forgiveness, then he should act that way, at least most of the time, showing suitable regret for any lapses). If he teaches meditation, he should meditate. If he insists that his followers live in austere conditions, so should he.

6.Takes the credit for a particular meditative or healing technique: The fact is that meditation and guided visualisation work. Anyone doing them will experience major changes, benefits and realizations. The false guru will try to own or trademark particular methods and techniques so that she has something unique to attract followers. And she will hijack the effects of meditation as the guru's blessing rather than each individuals natural potential. Often the students or followers are forbidden from divulging the techniques to maintain a sort of intellectual property right, usually under the guise of needing the technique to be taught correctly.

7.Specifically gives satsang or darshan when it is not part of his culture: Darshan is when the disciples or students of a master line up and to pass their master, who is usually seated, with either a bow or traditionally kissing their feet (yes it does happen). In the East, this is part of their culture and a normal thing to do to show respect and reverence (even children will kiss the feet of their fathers). However, here in the West, such copycat behaviour is a strong indication that the guru is acting a role. Satsang, on the other hand, means literally "the company of the Truth". In a deeper sense it is an affirmation of the Guru-Disciple relationship in Eastern traditions. But some Western gurus will use this terminology because they are playing a role.

8.Lives in total opulence: There is nothing wrong with living in luxury or being wealthy. But when that luxury turns to unnecessary opulence using funds that were not explicity donated for that purpose then you are probably dealing with a false guru. Money is collected from followers usually in the form of donations, and those donations are given as an act of love, appreciation and to help spread the influence of the master. However, a genuine master is more likely to use such wealth to lessen the suffering in this world, not to buy another yacht, private jet or Rolls Royce.

9.Encourages or permits adoration from his followers: Avoid any group that focuses on the "master" themselves rather than the teachings or spiritual practices. This will be a hindrance to your self-realisation for your focus will be drawn outside of yourself, and usually indicates that there is not a lot more on offer than guru worship.

10.Presents himself or herself overly fashionably and glamorously: Beware of masters who present glamour photographs of themselves and dress overly fashionably (whilst proclaiming that they have no ego and leading ego-death retreats). Yes it does happen!

11.Demands love and devotion from their students: Keep clear of any master who demands love and devotion. One very well known Western guru stated, "Anyone who loves me is guaranteed enlightenment"! Real love and devotion is earned over time when we begin to really know the whole person and not their public image.

12.Speaks with an Indian accent or vernacular when he is in fact a Westerner: Not sure how much this happens now but there are some high profile Western gurus who have (or had) Indian accents, mannerisms and vernacular. Unless they have genuinely spent considerable time in other cultures, they are probably playing out a role.

13.Runs expensive miracle workshops and courses: You are unlikely to reach enlightenment after a few weekend workshops with cheesy titles. In our society of "must have now", we want to be able to purchase spiritual development with minimal fuss. Also, avoid meaningless accreditation — it is often used merely to encourage followers to do more courses.

14.Acts like a complete paranoid mad person:If your Precious One acts like a complete paranoid schizophrenic or psychotic then he or she probably is. Run! Remember that there is no such thing as "crazy wisdom"—wisdom is the art of being balanced. However charismatic they may be, and sane between moments of madness, you WILL be damaged by them

15.Flatters you and treats you as very special: Sure we are all special in some ways, but this is one of the things that a false guru may do to hook a potential follower or to get a current follower to do a particular task. Nothing can be more intoxicating to the ego than to be selected by the master or leader (or any high profile person). A real master will stand back and allow you to make your decision whether to accept his or her teachings without trying to influence the process.

16.Talks bollocks: It is surprising what a person will listen to when he or she is devoted to the speaker. It is always a good idea to get hold of a written transcript of what has been said and really read the message. Then tell an open-minded friend who is not a follower what their opinion is purely on the strength of the words. You will soon find out whether there is any real substance to the teacher's message, or whether you are merely being drawn in by the charisma of the messenger.

17.Overly relies on slick presentation: Slick presentation can often mask poor content, and so it is important for you to look past the lovely music and video shows at the actual message. The slicker the presentation, the harder it is to see what exactly the teaching is. His followers lack technology in their satsangs. But they do have singing to divert the attention.

18.Gives him or herself outrageous titles: Not satisfied by being "merely" an enlightened being, many false gurus give themselves titles (or allow their followers to do so) to indicate that they are literally God-Incarnate, the reincarnation of the Buddha or Christ, or THE chosen one. Some continually change their names, to keep pace with their burgeoning egos.

19.Runs abundance workshops: A guru or master is there to help us find an authentic life. This is nothing to do with becoming more successful at work or making more money, although this may or may not follow from being more authentic. There is nothing wrong with abundance weekends, but if we mistake spirituality for increased business success, then we are guilty of spiritual materialism and we find ourselves deeper in the illusion. (The Japanese say that the Gods laugh at those who pray for money.)

20. Is not interested in you personally: If a teacher or guru does not have time to interact with you personally, then you may as well read his teaching from a book, because merely being in his presence doesn't help you find realization inside you. You may model some of his spiritual characteristics, but that often only places you deeper in illusion.

21.Allows his followers to set up a hierarchy of access: A guru must be accessible. If he is not, or if he allows his followers to block your access, then he is playing the role of a king and not a spiritual guide. A guru is only useful to the process of awakening if you can directly interact with him.

22.Makes false claims of lineage: Many mistakenly believe that realisation can only happen under the guidance of a realized master. In this belief system, gurus are only authentic when they come from a line or lineage of realized gurus. Desperate not to be left out, some gurus claim a false lineage of enlightened masters to bolster their authority to teach. Another pseudo form of "lineage" is to recount a miracle that once happened to them (maybe they cured themselves of some disease or God spoke to them personally) which infers that they are "chosen" and therefore have the authority to set themselves up as teachers and gurus.

23.Presents themselves as non-profit whilst raking in the millions: Often, the false prophet will present her teachings for free, whilst strongly encouraging her devotees to make large donations. In this way she can appear above money considerations, whilst maintaining her greed and opulence.

24.Collects a large band of angry ex-followers: This is an indication that something is seriously wrong. If she has used kindness and love in her interactions with her students, and has discouraged them from projecting denied spiritual characteristics onto the guru (rather than encouraging their integration into the self), then it is extremely unlikely that there would be more than a few disheartened ex's. Many might drift away and feel they have wasted their time, but they are only likely to have the great anger if they have put their teacher on a pedestal, given him their power, and later realized that he was never worthy of such adoration. Contrary to what some believe, it is actually the teacher's responsibility to strongly discourage students from putting them on pedestals, for this is counterproductive to finding realisation inside.

25.Uses pseudo-technology: Many false prophets and organisations base themselves around pseudo-technology in the effort to appear scientific — special meters, communication devices (do you really expect the aliens to use a mobile?) and energy clearing instruments and pendants that involve crystals and copper wire. Once again, this is to distract the unwary from the poor quality of the actual teaching.

shaan | Wed, 07/08/2009 - 19:41
drall's picture

So wrong you are

Messing with the guru is a common mistake.

Gurus are only mirrors , they don't hold a real meaning. They are signs in a long dark way .

The problem is not few misleading signs , the problem is lousy drivers and god forsaken cars.

Put your mind on being a better student and disciple , leave the gurus alone.

drall | Tue, 07/21/2009 - 20:10
Gilana's picture

So Very Right

"Messing with the guru is a common mistake...Put your mind on being a better student and disciple , leave the gurus alone."

Gilana | Fri, 10/09/2009 - 16:46
Azeemi's picture

Gurus = Mirror Souls

Hello Souls...

Well, not just gurus, even two lovers mirror each other. When a man and woman are spellbound and they fall victims of 'love at first sight' that is what counts. That is true love, that emotion, feeling and attraction, and not what happens after that through daily interaction and physical and verbal indulgences.

With a real spiritual man of God, this feeling of 'love at every sight' never ceases. The disciple is just lost in the person of the Master like a 'lovestruck romeo'.

My Spiritual Master, Khwaja Shamsuddin Azeemi (recently added to the list of Gurus), told me why it happens. I was staring at him and so were my other fellow spiritual brothers and sisters around him. So, he just smiled and looked down and then said that the reason disciples and non-disciples gaze at their Master or at a spiritual person is because of the Invisible Halo around their face and head. This halo of divine light and knowledge is what attracts other people to a spiritual person, otherwise there is no other reason. He said that when God bestows His Mercy on a person and gives him Divine Knowledge, that itself becomes a source of attraction. Also, he said, a lot of times the disciples cry or become happy in the presence of their gurus because the gurus act as mirrors and the disciple is just feeling and seeing his/her own self and his/her defects and shortcomings. That's why spiritual people teach with less words and much silence.

Then my Master (Murshid or Murad in Tasawwuf/Sufism) narrated his case. He said that one day he was sitting with his Spiritual Master (Hazrat Qalander Baba Auliya - also added) and asked him as to how we can identify a spiritual person. His Master and my Grand-Master said to him:

"First and foremost choose a person you think who can teach & train you spiritually. Once you've identified him, go and sit in his gatherings and listen to him. Spend time with him in his private and public sittings. See if his words and actions are not contradictory. See if he is a practical person himself or not." Then he added, and this he said is the most important quality one should seek and observe:

Qalander Baba said, "Sit with the master-to-be and keep a track of time. If you have spent 15 minutes with him in his company and out of those 15min, 12min were spent only thinking of God and you felt totally disconnected from the rest of the world, and thoughts and other worries and tensions; then know this, that the person is a man of God" Also, he said, "When you look at a man of God, your inner also echoes 'GOD'"

As the saying goes, "Birds of a feather, flock together". I believe this is a sprititual law. God has made everything in pairs and groups and species. We only sit and interact and befriend people with whom we share most similarities, if not all. Likewise, our guru is also a reflection of our innermost person and character. As the saying goes, "when the disciple is ready, the master appears."

My most humble request to all sincere spiritual students, disciples and seekers is to please keep yourself away from all this blame game and pin-pointing fingers and criticising any bogus or real guru or teachings. A believer's attitude is that of a palm tree, when he is struck with a stone, it throws back fruit. If you want to have a spiritual body, you should have a spiritual mind.

Be sincere to yourself and your path and your guide, your master, your guru, and your reward will only be GOD.

"He who knoweth himself, knoweth his God"
Words of:
Prophet Mohammed-Messenger of God.
Peace & Blessings Be Upon Him

With lots of love and prayers,

AzeemiSoul

Azeemi | Tue, 09/01/2009 - 09:57
RandomStu's picture

Right in Front of You

All things are teaching us at every moment, so the True Guru is that situation that has already appeared, right in front of you, just now.

If you keep a clear, questioning mind, then you already clearly see Truth. If you keep an "I want something" mind, then even if you meet Jesus or Buddha or God, it's no better than encountering a demon.

Stuart
http://home.comcast.net/~sresnick2/booboo.htm
http://stuart-randomthoughts.blogspot.com/

RandomStu | Sun, 09/13/2009 - 01:46
joy's picture

Beware of mind-based systematic going beyond

All things are teaching us at every moment but there is a meaning to souls, spirits and conscious entities and when you are aware of them you realize that you can not call a situation a guru, it is something different, the same way you cannot compare having sex with a stone to having sex with a human.

There is a common danger of too much abstraction when trying to go beyond systematically by using the mind that negates any conscious entity as if it is also an illusion (you can always say: go beyond etc.). This leads back to secularism, the analytical starting point, and does not reflect the true reality.

joy | Sun, 09/13/2009 - 05:47
RandomStu's picture

Reality and Abstraction

> there is a meaning to souls, spirits and conscious
> entities

There's a living reality that you're experiencing right now. Souls, spirits, and conscious entities are words, ideas. Even beautiful ideas are still ideas.

> There is a common danger of too much abstraction

The concrete Truth is experience. It's apparent before words and ideas, and isn't dependent on them. The words/ideas are an abstration made by thinking. They an abstration of the concrete reality of experience.

Stuart
http://home.comcast.net/~sresnick2/booboo.htm
http://stuart-randomthoughts.blogspot.com/

RandomStu | Sun, 09/13/2009 - 07:12
divine intervention's picture

it is reflective only when applied on the subject, not on object

No, that is exactly what joy tried to convey. The "systematic going beyond" which is so common among "spiritual realistics" is a trick of the mind when it is applied systematically and obsessively on objects rather on the subject. It looks like the surest approach to try to depict or approximate reality because it makes sense based on the rules of mathematical logic but it proves not reflect reality in any way and at some point you realize this. It is yet another trick of the mind, especially in the case of minds that tend to be very analytical, meant to occupy you in an endless process which is under the control of the mind, to tacitly maintain secularism and thus to dismiss everything, especially metaphysical things, as accidental, arbitrary, concept, idea, not real. It is meant to make sure that the end point where this process takes you which is the starting point you came from.

It is therefore so popular in case of people who came to spirituality from secular and atheist backgrounds. Their minds simply make sure to maintain the old skeptical rational conditioning while enjoying the new spiritual arena.

It is fruitful and reflective when applied on the subject, on the "I" as in self enquiry. The mistake is when you try to adapt it to apply it on objects.

divine intervention | Mon, 09/14/2009 - 06:45
seeker's picture

Only for pealing the onion

Very important and precise observation.

Enquiry is meaningful when applied on the subject and its attachements ("the onion"). Enquiries on the object are a misfortunate error many times motivated by the mind to introdcue an analytical process instead of coping emotionaly with what is. Also the use of the projection argument is usually a means not to accept criticism and check oneself. Beware.

seeker | Mon, 10/05/2009 - 13:09
NIDHI PARKASH's picture

right in within in front

It is inner intuition which leads to recognize the true one who may be present in all times as in past, at present and also in future; regarding it one sutra runs in yoga shaastra as--- "sa poorvey saamapi guru kaaley naanvachhedaat" guru who was available at the time begging of creation the same is available even today but students need previous births' good & virtuous deeds along-with divine grace to connect this guru.

NIDHI PARKASH | Sun, 09/13/2009 - 14:14
Cobotis's picture

Guru is phenomina

Guru is the catalyst phenomena that opens doors... breaks paradigms, and can take any shape/form or non-form.. Ones own hands can become Guru in one moment and be just hands in the next... "false Guru" is not an issue... Guru is Guru and then it isn't anymore....

Cobotis | Sun, 10/11/2009 - 21:43
silencio's picture

Inspect the followers and you will conclude about the guru

Instead of inspecting the guru, inspect the followers.

The guru is usually more sophisticated in hiding the undesirable than his followers.

See the level of robot-ness of the followers. How free minded and conscious they are and if not what is the quality of their robot-like behavior. Sometimes the robot-ness is still constructive and essential.

Feel the energy of the followers. Especially the ardent senior ones.

Instead of inspecting the guru, inspect the followers.

And beware not to fool yourself.

silencio | Sat, 10/17/2009 - 09:23
shaan's picture

this is beautiful

your thoughts are really nice. this is a good way, but i really doubt theres any real guru left in kaliyug which likes to keep followers around him.

The real one come meet u himself and disappears, he dont want to tell her name and make followers.

shaan | Sat, 08/07/2010 - 22:53
RandomStu's picture

Re: "inspect the followers"

> Instead of inspecting the guru, inspect the followers.

I like this advice. A guru will, over the years, give countless teachings, both with words and actions. You can always pick and choose some particular phrase that the guru said once or twice, and based on that, believe pretty much what you want to believe about the guru.

On the other hand, if you inspect close or long-time followers, you'll see the actual effects of the guru's overall teachings, both explicit words and implicit actions, not limitted by picking out select words the guru used here and there.

Stuart
http://stuart-randomthoughts.blogspot.com/
http://home.comcast.net/~sresnick2/booboo.htm

RandomStu | Sun, 10/18/2009 - 15:09
Gilana's picture

Calling You Out

I have read alot of posts that advance the theory that we are all our own Gurus.

Yesterday I attended my Guru's workshop. Each questioner had a chance to ask their question. He told one man who was embarrassed and rambling in his questioning that he should "Quit while he was still ahead," he told another woman that even though she was doing fine struggling with the instruction not to have children and that she should feel lousy, he told another girl that now that he had sent her into the world to have a boyrfriend and an apartment of her own (since she had successfully avoided being in the world until then), it was time to leave the world and come back. He told me that I was fooling myself and would have to come back and tell him what that meant. He told another woman to stop telling him and the world that she was "not enough" and to celebrate her victory we all stood and applauded her, where she appeared to try to turn inside out and hide. People in the group cried, gasped for air, laughed and prayed to God. He told the last guy, who days ago just got out of thousands of dollars of debt (thanks to the guru's instruction) Not to trust himself--yet. "It's too soon...wait a while." He asked the man to prove himself worthy of trust, first.

How are we gonna do things like that on our own??? This is the world! Truth has to be said out loud, we have to admit what we feel nauseous admitting; what we have protected maybe unconsiously our whole lives. We each will hide and make things easy to the very best of our ability if we do not have the face of truth staring at us and calling us out! My Guru will say or do anything to antagonize and finally kill my ego, because reaching truth is more important. He looked me in the eye the other day in front of a group of people and said, "You've met your match." And he's winning.

The Buddah did it on his own, but are you a prince? He was willing to give up paradise on earth to see truth. Do you own enough paradise to pay the price he did?

I saw the light of the living God thirty-five years ago--my very own little vision of truth. I don't need anyone to tell me how to recognize God. I know and I will never again not know.

I need someone to tell me how the hurt, terror, pain and frustration and even love of the world have been dealt with within me...how I have come to protect myself, what unconsious fasades have I created and show me how to discard what is not useful. I need someone else to help me clear out what is foggy but unbudging in my own mind. My guru told me to love him more. Sounds self serving, huh? But I just realized that to love him more means to get closer to him, and just like the sun he burns away fog...he's too clear, he just looks at me and I know I've been found out. Even when I hold a sword and look menacing, and everybody else is very admiring, he's the one guy in the group who dares me to use it and we both see I can't.

Gilana | Sun, 10/18/2009 - 16:25
madhusp's picture

About BOGUS GURU

Namaskar,
Very words "BOGUS" & "GURU" are contradictory. One which is bogus cant be called as Guru & a Guru cant be Bogus. In my opinion its better to use our time to find the TRUTH in ourselves. When our intentions are clear we will find the path & the MAAYAA (Bogus OR Fake) will vanish.

Dhanyavada
Madhusudan. S. Paranjape

madhusp | Wed, 10/21/2009 - 15:46
nancy pro's picture

Sometimes the kiss is a mouth to mouth resuscitation

Sometimes what looks like a kiss is actually a mouth to mouth resuscitation.

When we get to evaluate a guru, we must cast off our connotations and solely based on our best knowledge determine whether it is a kiss or a spiritual mouth to mouth resuscitation.

More in my blog Spiritual mouth to mouth resuscitation.

nancy pro | Thu, 10/29/2009 - 20:32
Surya Kumar Mishra's picture

Evaluating a Guru

Let us not evaluate a Guru
A Guru knows better than me
so how to evaluate Him
This is to be reconsidered

Surya Kumar Mishra | Mon, 05/09/2011 - 05:26
kaput's picture

Fake gurus are found by faked seekers

If you are sincere with yourself you will not be persuaded by the tricks of a fake guru. If you are sincere with yourself, foreign motives such as ego, prestige and money will not be able to influence you and so a fake guru will not be able to use them on you.

So work on yourself and be totally sincere with yourself when evaluating a guru - if you like one ask yourself why exactly? and do not get satisfied with the convenient answers.

kaput | Sun, 11/01/2009 - 08:06
Gilana's picture

Love

Can you trust your heart to know?

Gilana | Sun, 11/01/2009 - 18:21
tiru's picture

No alternative

One has no alternative but to trust his heart. His heart may deceive him or not, he may be thinking that he is trusting his heart while it is a tricky part of his mind. Nevertheless, the important thing is to practice trust and to trace his way to the heart by the unique quality that it radiates.

tiru | Mon, 11/02/2009 - 08:32
lalo's picture

Be trustworthy instead of trusting

There is no other option but to trust the heart. I would put it: to make your heart trustworthy instead of trusting.

But in addition, what he says is that you should also and mainly make your intellect and sincerity trustworthy.

It is all a game of inner sincerity and it is a hard task because in spite of our favorite self images, we deceive ourselves over and over again. This is the problem, not the existence of corrupted gurus.

lalo | Wed, 11/25/2009 - 09:25
lalo's picture

Protecting the copyrights of his words and pics

Have you seen the note in Swami Sai Premananda?

It is written there: "*** The underlying guru has personally demanded the removal of the biography text posted here by users under a claim of copyright infringement."

Not only teachings, not only pic, the text of his biography? his biography? Jesus, even to be an impostor you need some basic level of wisdom to avoid stupid acts.

Someone wrote there in the opinions something in the sort: a real guru will not try to gain control, especially over things which he can't have.

So here is another authentic live sign for a bogus guru, I guess.

lalo | Wed, 11/25/2009 - 09:33
Jibanda's picture

How do you select your lover in a romantic relationship?

Relationship with a guru is like romantic relationship. I know it may be hard to digest because we have so many connotations about romantic relationship (mainly sexual) but they both have the same traits including the selection of the partner - the lover in one case and the guru in the other.

How do you select your lover? Are you doing pro/con lists? probably not or more precisely you better not. You have this uncontrollable instinct, this enormous excitement, this attraction, these pulses of the heart.

The same is in the case of selecting a guru.

PS. And all those who say all this bla bla stuff about "the guru within", reflections, "no bad guru", "all is one" etc - they are either pretending naives or rather are ignorants - they do not say the same when they are hungry (no need to eat), when they are in wish for romantic partner, and so on. When you are living in the relative dimension (and you do otherwise you wouldn't need a guru), you need a real flesh and blood one to counter your mind. Dismissing this is either due to over theorizing (typical to philosophers, secular people or neo-advaita people), to inexperience of beginners or and mainly to fear of the mind of an external authority that will compel it to surrender.

Jibanda | Wed, 11/25/2009 - 14:38
SUMIT604's picture

hiii how r u... i think its

hiii how r u...
i think its important to have a guru in life as a source of strength and motivation...so that u can faith in the way he has shown you but thats all ..we cant rely on our guru to learn averytrhing....each one of us has a different perception and experiences of life..so policy should be of continuing the search on our own and efforts with the motivation of our gurus....i think we ourselves r true gurus of ourselves...
for example i never thought of a guru but i can say that writer paulo cohelo is the one who motivates me for my search .but i always listen to everyone and test those things in life and then except them....
i will say that life is the biggest teacher but to wait for a teacher whole life so that when he comes then only u will start ur journey is an excuse....u r lucky if u have a guru...things may becme easier but it is the same way as they say that educatin ruined me ,i was born intelligent...so harder but correct way is to learn things yourself...
ofcourse it asks for a grat strength but u have the motivation of ur guru for that...
i think it can be a good discussio soplz tell what u think abut it

SUMIT604 | Thu, 11/26/2009 - 07:33
Gilana's picture

Hmmm

Hi Sumit604,

I think you and I are at odds on almost everything---what are the chances?

"i think its important to have a guru in life as a source of strength and motivation"... My guru is not a source of strength or motivation. He takes away every bit of strength I try to muster, except perseverance. I suppose you could say he motivates me, but not in the classic sense...He will burn the daylights out of me if I don't move. He will burn the daylights out of me if I do move.

"so that u can faith in the way he has shown you but thats all" He discourages faith in favor of knowing by "seeing it with your own eyes. Make up your own mind." And he doesn't "show" me anything. He "arranges it" so that I find it myself.

"we cant rely on our guru to learn averytrhing....each one of us has a different perception and experiences of life.." The guru's job is not to teach...that's a teacher. The guru's job is to burn away everything that is not truth. As for perception and experiences...my Guru would make it very clear to you--immediately--that he has no room for your perceptions and experiences. He only has room for truth and you can't get there from perceptions and experiences. (They make great firewood, however.)

"so policy should be of continuing the search on our own and efforts with the motivation of our gurus....i think we ourselves r true gurus of ourselves..." Yeah. Well, good luck with that.

"i will say that life is the biggest teacher but to wait for a teacher whole life so that when he comes then only u will start ur journey is an excuse" If you are intelligent enough to learn the subtle lessons from life I salute you. I, myself, experienced enlightenment at 16. (By the way...this is not hard to do. It happened to me by accident...but enlightenment happens when you get out of the way. To every and any body, no matter who they are.)
I then proceeded to separate that "experience" from "life" as a result of other "experiences." P.S. I don't know anybody who is so foolish as to wait around for a Guru before starting their journey if they are touched by God...even if they start walking in circles.

"u r lucky if u have a guru...things may becme easier" hahahah(loudly) ha. ha. What gave you that idea? (I reallllly want to know!!)

It's a good thing I love God, because the Guru hurts. He is a murderer. He will strip you of all of your ideas and perceptions and philosophies and acts and social graces...the person you have "become" has to go. And he will drop you off, naked in front of the truth, without a paddle. And then, if decide to stop fighting and allow it, existance can take you on it's ride, at it's own pace, without your input. That's truth.

You sound like a sincere guy...what is your experience with a guru?

Gilana | Thu, 11/26/2009 - 08:53
Gilana's picture

Rudeness--an addendum

Beloved Sumit604,

I wanted to say sorry for my previous (or subsequent...where ever it appears in this listing) post....it was late at night and I let my reaction get the better of me. I hope you do not interpret it as rude to you or your ideas. I was being playful, but it is sometimes hard to see in writing. certainly my experinece is not the end all, as it might have appeared in that post.

I would welcome the chance to discuss those further.

Namaste.
cheylah

Gilana | Thu, 11/26/2009 - 15:47
SUMIT604's picture

hiiiiiii

i dont have any experiences with any guru..and i dont think i have got enlighted at this age...and i dont want to if after getting enlighted at the age of 16 people have such narrowmindedness....
now im saying what i feel bcoz i have never practiced anything which all people talk about here...and im not interested also
but i believe firmly in one thing that our aim in life should be to practice humanity and serve others ....
and thats how i feel being the happiest person on earth...
my gurus r many, ranging from my mother,father,my true love(i feel lucky to find her),my companions and many others..
im actually disappointed to see the way people take spiritual enlighenment. god is nowhere...its inside us only...task is to awaken that dormant wisdom by practicing theory of love and service to society..
i didnt feel bad after reading your reply but i felt sad to see the delusions in which so many people r living.....naming their laziness(in many cases) the awkening in life....

plz reply further as imay find some better way to perform my duties as human beings...

SUMIT604 | Fri, 11/27/2009 - 09:39
Gilana's picture

hiiii back

Certainly service to humanity and the practice of love is firmly on the path to awakening. I have heard that Sadhana is of the most purifying practice, and practice it daily. I wonder about the "laziness" you are sad about and the delusions...can you say more about this so that I may understand you?

Thank you.

Gilana | Sun, 11/29/2009 - 05:23
SUMIT604's picture

hiiiiii

I Didnt mentioned delusions and laziness for some particular cases bt i have observed that in many cases people after retirement and in older age tend to be more interested towards spirituality....
why thats so...is it just bcoz of lack of engagement and some job...or bcoz they gain knowledge after haviong a life full of various experiencs....
what do u think...

SUMIT604 | Tue, 12/01/2009 - 12:54
Gilana's picture

Guru says

When conscious, I defer to my Guru when he has commented on a subject and on this matter he attributes the increased interest to the fact that (I'm paraphrasing) 'somewhere between 45 and 55 death is staring you in the face and it's harder to ignore.' Also, many of the more common desires have been satisfied....leaving the person more unsatisfied than ever, without the hope that the worldly will suffice.
In addition, I think you are right--the natural distractions of young and middle-aged life are subsiding.

Gilana | Tue, 12/01/2009 - 18:04
happy together's picture

Monosodium Glutamate

Indeed noticing that a guru is bogus is a hard task.

The taste is artificially enhanced and seems like a natural one.

There are people who will say that there is nothing wrong with it but we know that in the long term, it is toxic and terribly unhealthy.

But when you are sensitive enough you can notice the unpleasant aftertaste of the Monosodium Glutamate. And once you notice it you will not be able to ignore it when tasting this dish again.

Look for the unpleasant artificial aftertaste.

happy together | Sun, 01/24/2010 - 11:48
Quantum's picture

My Guru

...is the Stillness within.

I can tell the bad tree by it's fruits.

When my inner Guru is false (to me), my emotional state and my external circumstances are disturbing, unpleasant, to me. I want less of it.

When my inner Guru is true (to me), my emotional/internal state, and my external circumstances are pleasant to me, and I want more of it.

(I say "want more of" vs "don't don't want more of" to cover the bases, because I know this could lead to arguments of what is good and what is evil, and that they are all relative, etc, etc, etc. I'm not getting into that debate here.)

My Guru is simply the Stillness, and peace, within. Meditation takes me to to that place. So, do feelings of compassion for someone. Clouds against an orange sunset, the quiet moments in the morning before eveyone wakes up. The stillness of the evening when everyone else is asleep. The focused feel of a single footstep.

Quantum | Sun, 01/24/2010 - 18:37
Leon's picture

Controlling and Manipulative.

A false guru/teacher will be controlling and manipulative. They'll not respect one's free-will, nor their individuality. Fear, guilt, condemnation will be tools used.

Trying to control the free-will of another is akin to "dark magic"- it is imposing one's own will upon another. Love, on the other hand, seeks to serve and can take the lower position and be in the place of servitude- if the spiritual well-being of the student, disciple, or devotee is at stake.

A true guru or teacher will in love serve others, and yet still retain an aura of authority or spiritual potency- why? Because this power is not in them, because there's no ego-self "lording" it over others. Whereas the pretended "authority" of a teacher so-called is a fantasy of their ego-self.

Peace.

Leon | Sat, 01/29/2011 - 04:33
Quantum's picture

Perfect

and beautiful

Quantum | Sat, 01/29/2011 - 21:03
Shogon's picture

I agree

You are right in what you say about ego.
you only have to look at the likes of hitler and other dictators and how the masses followed their words and what became of them.
A true Guru would teach with love,belief and faith because he is one with God and God is working through him for the benefit of his studants and mankind and He wants nothing in return.
You feel His love in your heart, the love in his words and feel the love He has for each and everyone His students and thoses He helps.
Thats why people are drawn to a true Gurus teachings,words of truth said with love are like seeds when heard in the heart and mind they will grow; they will be like flowers that need light to blossom,like berries that need the sun to ripen.
You and your Guru will become like mirrors reflecting each others love, with this comes understanding and compassion.
He waters your thirst for Knowledge of God with love.

Shogon | Sat, 02/19/2011 - 12:28
tejaswini's picture

everything in the world

everything in the world happens for a reason we are in kaliyuga the old age of all the yuga a time when the supreme starts the process of dissolving things back into the supreme so that everything starts in satyuga. Therefore we cannot say anything about hitler or anybody

tejaswini | Fri, 05/04/2012 - 12:51
hugo's picture

On what exactly do you base

On what exactly do you base your belief that everything in the world happens for a reason. This is just a hypothesis, not a fact. Moreover, great sages said the contrary, e.g. Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj.

We certainly can say a lot about Hitler and others. Do you use this approach when for example a person who is suspected as a murderer is at your door and you still put trust on him (after all, you said we cannot say anything about anybody) and open the door? or a doctor that you hear that was involved in many malpractices? Why then when it comes to spirituality you become less careful than in those daily cases of life? :-)

hugo | Fri, 05/04/2012 - 19:49
tejaswini's picture

On what exactly do you base

On what exactly do you base your belief on good and bad. A human if convenient with something or someone that is good to that human being. Basically,I dont trust anyone but I trust everyone. If you understand the true meaning behind this statement then you will understand why I said that everything happens for a reason. I dont know spiritual saints I believe my inner voice and I believe in formless brahman from which all these forms of material physical and spiritual dimensions originate

tejaswini | Sat, 05/05/2012 - 05:13
bonya basu's picture

I like your statement..."I

I like your statement..."I don't trust anyone but i trust everyone"
Your Inner voice is real Guru to you.

Thank you verymuch Tejaswini!

bonya basu | Sat, 05/05/2012 - 05:53
bonya basu's picture

Better we make ourself Awaken for a gradual Transformation.....

Murderer didn't murder without any reason...although it is misdeed.

If you show love and compassion to a murderer...he will not do harm to you as he did for his enemy.

Circumstances made him murderer...and we brand them as murderer.Soceity can only help them to evolve to their true human nature.

Gautam Budha did the same with Unglimar(murderer)...spontaneous transformation happens to that Evil soul when he come in contact with Budha(Enlightened soul)

It is our(individul) duty to make ourself awakened...for the gradual transformation of the whole soceity...nation...world....and so on....

bonya basu | Sat, 05/05/2012 - 06:16
tejaswini's picture

It is not my wisdom that I

It is not my wisdom that I share it is the wisdom of the supreme father from whom I or everyone originates so points that I make are none other than my father's on which everyone has equal rights and equal knowledge so please dont thank me thank the father

tejaswini | Sat, 05/05/2012 - 10:57
bonya basu's picture

Thanks....to That Supreme Knowlege!

You are the representative of that Supreme Authority...so thanking you is thanking "Him"...that Supreme Knowledge.

bonya basu | Sat, 05/05/2012 - 12:23
tejaswini's picture

Dhanyavaad

Dhanyavaad

tejaswini | Sat, 05/05/2012 - 13:20
stillness 1's picture

"A real Guru will not tell

"A real Guru will not tell you who you are but will point to you everything that you're not."
Mooji

You are the light of consciousness and also the witness of this light.
You are pure awareness.

stillness 1 | Sat, 02/26/2011 - 23:48
Surya Kumar Mishra's picture

bogus gurus .... how to recognise

A bogus guru advertises
a bogus guru has followers
a bogus guru speaks a lot
a bogus guru has subscriptions set for his/her disciples

Surya Kumar Mishra | Mon, 05/09/2011 - 05:23
madhusp's picture

bogus gurus .... how to recognise

Also a bogus guru is afraid of death & is behind materialistic pleasure..

madhusp | Sat, 05/05/2012 - 09:41
tejaswini's picture

dont you think this is prejudice

The view point is that even forming a cheat sheet is opinionated. Our soul has dull aching when the guru is so called fake I mean whenever we learn stuff good or bad which is again an illusion from any person or anything or any being they become our gurus everyday we face reality of spirituality in our day to day life that begs us to get out of illusion so that we reach the ultimate bliss even knowing this I dont think we can even define the very concept of guru every thing on the planet and beyond is the embodiment of supreme so reverence to every being should be that which we give to the supreme so guru to a person is our own soul which is nothing but the supreme

tejaswini | Fri, 05/04/2012 - 12:47
bonya basu's picture

Very true....

Very true!
Thank you!

"Guru is reflection of your own mind"

bonya basu | Fri, 05/04/2012 - 13:33
tejaswini's picture

My soul speaks to me but I

My soul speaks to me but I dont know why I am still unable to listen to my soul even after realizing that I am playing the character in this play called life. I dont know why I try conquering my senses when they can be won with love. I wish I know when I shed all these garments formed by my emotions and body and enjoy the true essence of atman

tejaswini | Fri, 05/04/2012 - 13:43
bonya basu's picture

Gurus grace and meditation is the only way.......

One who is clear minded can listen the voice of soul.
You are aware of yourself...it will help you to progress fast.With the help of proper meditation and guru's grace... One can enjoy the true Essence of Atman....

bonya basu | Fri, 05/04/2012 - 16:35
tejaswini's picture

You are right I know that

You are right I know that the supreme father will bestow me with my guru if not in this birth in any upcoming births. He taught me the hard way to never loose my faith so I wont your words provided me the necessary encouragement thankyou

tejaswini | Fri, 05/04/2012 - 17:24
avi's picture

Offering to teach and not asking to learn

Distance yourself from the one who hysterically offers his help, who claims he is the voice of some source or the absolute, who plays the teacher-only, that assumes beforehand that he can teach you while he has nothing to learn from you.

Such one will make it clear that he doesn't need any help, that he is already there. What he really needs is to strengthen his false belief that he is where he is not, to strengthen his ego, and many times to better his spiritual business (look for CDs, techniques, meditation retreats etc.). He is using you, not trying to use himself for your benefit.

Distance yourself from a such, or try to undermine his statements, try to make him angry, and you will quickly see his "enlightened" reactions. Don't waste time in offering him help because he will reject that automatically.

avi | Mon, 12/24/2012 - 05:22
Nepher's picture

Sacred is the golden link

Sacred is the golden link Guru-disciple !

...but very rare are those who have the qualification to endorse the function of Guru :

- Conveying face to face the teaching of Love in its most depth including its highest Wisdom & practice ;
- Imparting the energy of Love as a living mountain stream touching, rushing in the Heart of disciple ;
- Healing the psyche of the disciples and much more if necessary to help them to firmly walk the path ;

This is the big deal provided the disciple secure his (her) engagment in profound humility and respect of the relation. It requires utmost patience and perseverance to go further one step after another... don't be fooled, we are "ants" in our progress of unfolding the Consciousness because at last the ultimate wisdom is to realize that Love is the Key of all our world. It nourishes , sustains and accomplishes the Beauty of the world & of our Soul. A still little seed that is growing inside us and through us, touch the world in order to reveal little by little its true purpose : The fragance of Unity, the sacredness of life.

Let's hope we shall meet Once in our life a true Guru.

Nepher | Mon, 12/09/2013 - 18:50
dan77's picture

I'm not sure I understand

I'm not sure I understand what you are trying to say - what exactly are the signs you point out about a false guru?

Is emphasis on love is a criterion? Are gurus that do not have love as their main theme false gurus?

How exactly you define "love"?

How exactly you define "sacred"?

dan77 | Mon, 12/09/2013 - 20:15
Nathyogi's picture

Re: Recognize Bogus Gurus

This may help while choosing a right Guru:

www.nathyogi.com/FalseGurus.pdf

*** Salutations to the shoes of Guru Siddha Nath ***

Nathyogi | Wed, 07/23/2014 - 10:07
atlantis's picture

There is no real criterion

There is no real criterion in this link, just a bunch of unrelated rhymes.

atlantis | Fri, 08/08/2014 - 11:11
Nathyogi's picture

Re: There is no real criterion

You are free to express your opinion. I welcome it for the unreal cannot know of the real.

Nathyogi | Fri, 08/08/2014 - 11:50
Nathyogi's picture

Bogus Guru

The first point should be if the Guru has served a Guru or not.
If no, 100% sure that he is a bogus Guru.

Nathyogi | Fri, 08/08/2014 - 07:03
atlantis's picture

100% nonsense

Sorry but this is the most stupid and baseless criterion I've ever heard. The fact that you wrote "100% sure" doesn't make it true.

By fact, there is no connection between whether one had a guru or not and whether he is a true one or not.

atlantis | Fri, 08/08/2014 - 11:01
Nathyogi's picture

Re: 100% nonsense

You need not be sorry but feel happy to express your views.
Truth is bitter to swallow my dear brother.
By condemning 100% nonsense you cannot escape from truth.

It is my opinion based on my experience.
You or all are free to accept it or reject it or protest it. But none can alter truth.

Ok, my opinion may seem to be 100% nonsense to you, but prove it with logic, reason or commonsense not by condemning 100% nonsense.

Those Gurus who have not served a Guru but interested in making disciples are projected and propelled by their ego. There is not even 0.0001% of truth in them. That is why they are bogus.

Even in this world it is not possible to become a teacher without having been a student.
How can be of the other world?
This proves where you stand. Remember, you or all are free to follow bogus Gurus who have not been disciples.

The truthful say,
"Fools follow the one
Who has followed none."

Spirituality and truth are a matter of free will and self-conviction. Blind beliefs, baseless, stupid ideas and nonsensible comments have no value among the wise.

Hari Om!

Nathyogi | Fri, 08/08/2014 - 11:44
dank's picture

Is the guru "right for you" instead of "real/bogus"

I would change a bit the question from bogus/real to: Is the guru right for you?

In other words, shift the attention from the guru (bogus/real) to you and especially to the connection between you two. For example, sometimes a bogus guru is exactly what someone needs in order to advance on the path.

Having said that,

If the guru forces you to do some things that you don't like and not to do some things that you like than he is probably the right guru for you right now. Go for it!

dank | Tue, 12/30/2014 - 21:35
zoya's picture

Sometimes it's the follower who is bogus

Sometimes (and I would even dare to say: in most cases) it's the follower who is bogus, not necessarily the one who is pointed as the guru.

I mean, a follower of a certain guru who tries to convince you that his guru is such and such (and usually, that his guru is the ONLY one who is such and such).

Usually, the motive behind that follower's heated trial to persuade is his desire to convince himself (having deep subconscious doubts).

The best way to notice such a follower is a lack of willingness to discuss his claims at all.

It's extremely important to notice whether it's just the follower who is being the problem or rather it's something that reflects the guru himself. If it's just the follower who is bogus, don't let him spoil your clear view of the guru, skip the follower and examine the guru himself.

zoya | Wed, 04/08/2015 - 17:07