Stopping the thinking, with no conflict

shira's picture



Average: 4 (22 votes)
ThinkingMonkey.jpg

For a long time, I was firmly against trying to stop the thinking process. I thought it always triggers mental conflict and thus only harmful at the end of the day.

I preferred, instead, to watch the thoughts as they arise without identifying with them, and then wave them bye bye when they fly away. I still do.

I still think that mental conflict is counterproductive in spiritual practice.

But, recently, one afternoon when I was wandering leisurely in the tunnels of mind and conditionings, I was lucky enough to encounter at one of the curves a way to stop the thinking process, or at least the crucial part of the thinking process, without provoking conflict and without effort (though, in the first trials some effort is needed to get accustomed to the new procedure).

Actually by saying "to stop the thoughts", I mean being able to stop one step ahead before the thoughts emerge. The thoughts I am talking about are the heavy-duty gross ones, those which consume a high amount of mental energy. The trick is instead of getting into conflict with the mind (which by default, is strongly against stopping the thinking as it is thinking) to enter into a "win-win mutually-beneficial agreement" with it.

These gross thoughts are consuming enormous mental energy and it appears that, if asked specifically, the mind is willing to give them up and thus save energy. A practical way to convince the mind to do so is to observe for some time the amount of energy it takes to have these heavy thoughts running, the subtle headaches while thinking them, the heaviness in the head, the subtle anxiety. Watch for some time the meter of mental energy consumed for fueling your mental activity instead of watching the mental activity itself and you will win the consent of the exhausted mind. Plus, you offer it a compromise, you do not ask the mind to give up the whole thinking process, just a part of it, the hardcore thinking, for now. Though being sometimes stubborn and childish, the mind knows to recognize a good bargain.

So now you ask: how to do the stopping? well, after you entered into the agreement with the mind, it is pretty simple. Take one very-strong typical thought you are well acquainted with in your mental world, one that usually triggers inflictive painful emotions, one that you find yourself most frequently entangled in compulsively. Take this strong thought in perspective and lower the level of energy you are willing to supply for the thinking process (I call it "be momentarily, mentally lazy") and rest one step before this familiar thought is about to emerge.

This description may sound simplistic but it works. It is impossible to explain it fully in words, you will have to try it over and over until you find the way to get into this "mental laziness" and until you manage to spot this one step ahead point to stop at. All I can say is that it is extremely easy, do not look for complicated maneuvers, just do it.

The mind will not protest nor resist, at least not after several rounds of trying to practice this, you will see. Halt there in that one-step-ahead spot, just be there and if you are forced by a strong thought to move out from there, it is ok, do not resist, you most probably neglected momentarily the monitoring of the mental energy consumption and then a strong thought sneaked in. Rest for a while and try again.

Note that while you stop in that one-step-ahead spot, low energy-consuming thoughts are still going on and it is OK. Just watch them. Notice especially two different thoughts that still go on:

  • The "active observer" (that says, among other things: "Now stop the heavy thinking", "now start heavy thinking again", "is it working?", "mmm, I am really doing it" etc.)
  • very subtle almost-zero-energy-consuming fractions of thoughts that float there around in your head.

And it works. And it is simple. And the feeling is peaceful and liberating. Such a consequent feeling always serves me as a signpost that I am in the right way.

Finally, four important cautions:

  • Be sure you do not use the stopping of the thinking as a hidden trick to avoid the acceptance of certain painful emotions and sensations that are supposed to be triggered by the underlying thoughts. Stop the thinking process just for the sake of the stopping and let whatever needs to happen to happen. That's all.
  • Be careful not to get into intellectual tricky analysis such as "I am watching and thinking about the non-thinking therefore I am thinking...", "who is watching?", "Reality is non dual", "How can the mind instruct the mind?" etc. These may be important observations and analysis (or sometimes intellectual addictions) but for the sake of this practice, they are certainly counterproductive. Leave them aside for now and just practice. If you look carefully, you will see that such intellectual analysis is a high-consuming type of thought. If you find them active during the practice, it means you didn't stop one step ahead, it's ok, try again and be alert this time.
  • Make sure you do not instinctively hold your breath while doing the practice. Thinking and breathing go together. When you stop your breath, your stream of thoughts also tends to stop (try it) and vice versa so sometimes you may find yourself not breathing properly during the stopping of the thoughts which, in the case of our practice, can make the practice more difficult. It is extremely important that you make sure you are taking deep breaths while doing the exercise otherwise you may feel at some point an emotional anxiety.
  • Do not start to even think about stopping the thinking before you master the art of observing the thoughts and before you are well acquainted with your typical thought patterns. Without these qualifications, you will find it very hard to implement the technique.

By the way, while starting to practice this, you may feel strange sensations in your head, sensations such as some energetic screen crossing from the front area to the back of your head, separating one part of your head from the other. At this point, just ignore these sensations, you may observe them briefly but then return your attention to the practice.

You will also may notice that the stream of thoughts has transformed into a standstill point located within your head, sometimes in the area between the eyebrows (area which is called the third eye), sometimes in the middle of your forehead, sometimes at the back of your head, sometimes elsewhere, the location itself is not important for now. The important thing is that you may find it very helpful to concentrate on this standstill point when stopping the thought process.



Phroggy's picture

Stillness through understanding

Hi Shira
Yeah, I can see how that may be effective, though maybe I see it functioning a little differently.

"These thoughts are consuming enormous mental energy and it appears that, if asked specifically, the mind is willing to give them up and thus save energy."

And I think that realization is the key, perhaps together with the reminder that you concluded that, since we fall back into old patterns so easily.

To me, the idea that ego can control mind is false since ego is part of mind. The control requires a split which is why conflict often results, and this split is the cause of the mental conflict to begin with. Hencely, there isn't one thing convincing mind of something, there's just mind comming to an understanding of the futility or waste or self destructive nature of some of the thinking that happens. If this understanding overrides ego's need to control by seeking solutions or ego's desire to create drama, then mind naturally comes to rest.

Phil

Phroggy | Sat, 08/16/2008 - 16:53
david's picture

controlling vs. surrendering

I agree.

You return home after work and find your house flooded with water. Instead of getting angry and irritated, you take a bucket and start to collect the water peacefully, you keep on collecting and pouring the water in the garden, collect and pour, collect and pour. You are doing the right thing and in the right calm state of mind... but, you will probably have to do it forever unless you also look for the cause of the flooding and turn off the tap in the bathroom...

The best policy indeed is to surrender. Just accept and observe. This is especially good for dealing with the mental outcomes, the emotions, the water, things we have no option to eliminate (suppressing them into subconscious is not elimination).

But a possible danger in the above policy is that you might have another, tacit compulsive process that silently generates, for example, painful emotions, this is the tap in the bathroom. And so, you keep on accepting and observing while this tap keeps on generating and generating. This way, nothing really changes, you didn't take care of the cause, of the source.

This tacit process, the tap in the bathroom, is the thinking.

Therefore, the best policy to deal with the mental source, the thinking, is to use thinking only for practical controlled purposes and in other circumstances and times just to stop it, for those who are capable of stopping it. The proposed technique seems to provide a splendid and creative way to do so. I am trying it.

david | Sun, 08/17/2008 - 12:11
Phroggy's picture

Control vs clarity

Hi David

"The best policy indeed is to surrender. Just accept and observe."

Yes, indeedy, and to bring it full circle, the acceptance/surrender is not a doing but an undoing, and so ultimately it cannot be done, which is not to say it doesn't happen, but rather it happens when mind comes to understand the futility of the struggle and letting go begins to look like the best thing to 'do'. Mind/ego can be awfully stuborn about coming to that conclusion since control is the mind's MO.

Clarity is the key to altering the functioning of mind. Ego is an imagined overlay resulting from a mind split, and as it's not other than the mind, it cannot bring about changes in the mind by setting itself in opposition to itself.

Phil

Phroggy | Sun, 08/17/2008 - 18:00
david's picture

Whether accept+observe is

Whether accept+observe is doing or not doing is mere semantics. The important thing is the practice in action. When you learn to do it, it works and then you do not need the exact definitions anymore. Whether it is doing or elimination of previous doing depends on the perspective. From the perspective of the "doer" it is doing as it changes the default behavior of the past. Accepting and observing are a matter of a decision and volition and they are simple to do, so simple and effective that you feel the tremendous impact and relief of the consequent living side by side with the things instead of being identified with them.

david | Sun, 08/17/2008 - 21:34
Phroggy's picture

What is there to learn about

What is there to learn about accepting? One simply stops rejecting, yes? To say that accepting is not a doing is not merely semantics. It's useful to notice that it simply cannot be done. What you are learning is the futility of the doing; the struggle, the judgment, the attachment, the suffering. When this is understood, then there is the willingness to accept. In the midst of this acceptance, ego will jump up and claim responsibility and turn it into a practice that it thinks it can do, and this is a diversion from what actually brings about the acceptance, which is a deeper understanding.

You can demonstrate this to yourself right now. Take something that you simply cannot accept, and choose to accept it. Now take a look and see if your choice to accept it brought about real acceptance. Of course it did not. A deeper understanding is required for that.

Phil

Phroggy | Mon, 08/18/2008 - 03:17
sisi's picture

Why make the simple complicated?

Why make the simple complicated by introducing "deeper understanding", "who is calling?", different meanings of words etc. All these analysis are sometimes sophisticated tricks of the mind and they do not do good to the practice...

Sometimes understanding is vital in the process. In such a case, do understand, deep understanding or shallow understanding, have the understanding and then throw the understanding away and continue. Understand, calm the mind with a tasty candy otherwise it will disturb, so understand and then continue.

But when doing a practice, especially a simple one, one has to be very careful with understanding, there should not be any understanding or non-understanding while doing meditation, just meditation, just being.

Lastly, I think it is a bit of a waste of time indulging in the specific definition of each word. Words are only subjective and generic signposts. Better focus on the practice, on the sacred art of observing and accepting and in this practice, sorry, but my volition to totally accept something seems in practice as the factor to make the acceptance. It is such an easy thing to do when you do it, why look for other factors? It is a simple practice, simpler than imagined, why complicate it with understandings? Simplicity is the beauty and the power of this thing.

sisi | Mon, 08/18/2008 - 07:54
SriSriYogiBaba's picture

"there should not be"

Why do you feel it is necessary to exclude understanding / non-understanding from "just being". Why can't "just being" include this, if it so arises?

SriSriYogiBaba | Mon, 08/18/2008 - 18:36
sisi's picture

I don't say exclude

I don't say exclude. I say that for true acceptance and observation, nothing further is needed including any deep understanding. If you have understanding then fine, have it by all means, but if you don't have it, beware not to spoil the simplicity of acceptance by incorporating ideas and understandings on top of it. Accepting and observing is merely non-doing, non-doing of what your mind usually does by default, the essence is reducing, just beware of anything you add.

As to being: Being is being. Nothing further I can honestly say.

sisi | Mon, 08/18/2008 - 19:58
SriSriYogiBaba's picture

Sisi, I understand the point

Sisi,
I understand the point you are making and where it comes from. However, once observation and acceptance is mature and stable enough, there is no longer any fear of "spoiling the simplicity".
Intellect is a natural and necessary function of being human, not separate or opposed to "being".
When "true acceptance and observation" have indeed worked their magic, there may no longer feel like a separate solid you in there to "put understandings on top of" or to "add" to.

SriSriYogiBaba | Tue, 08/19/2008 - 10:47
Phroggy's picture

Because mind has already complicated

Hi Sisi
Ego would have it that there is nothing to understand so that nothing precious need be challenged. Ego gets to choose where understanding is needed and where it is not, which may or may not be an effective plan depending on what the plan is. If the plan is to become conscious, it may be necessary to realize some things that aren't understood because they aren't particularly "tasty" to the mind. Once some of these truths are revealed, you will want to throw away the understanding, but fortunately you cannot.

I suspect when you hear "understanding" you think 'the result of conceptual mentation', but I'm talking about a deeper awareness that does away with mind's games. For example, the notion that one can cause acceptance to happen, or that one has volition, or that the deluded mind can somehow be left out while something that is not mind goes about it's practice of observation that doesn't lead to understanding.

Phil

Phroggy | Mon, 08/18/2008 - 21:58
enlight's picture

Bravo!

Bravo!

enlight | Mon, 08/18/2008 - 12:48
venkym's picture

Traditional Mind Stopping

I'm not sure I understood what you meant by "mental laziness".
Asking the mind to stop thinking is usually a big "no no" in most non dual traditions as it is not helpful. In Zen it is known as the heretical view. One Zen master called it washing blood with blood.

As Ramana Maharishi said anything that needs the use of the mind will never allow you to step out of the mind. Only going to the source will work.

In terms of system science the mind is an emergent phenomena like a bee hive, economy etc. The illusory identity emerges when its parts interact with one another. The parts of the mind are concepts. Only constant activity sustains the identity. Going to the source of the mind with earnetness and single pointedness stops all activity. When mind stops truth shines. As they say in Zen - Dont seek the truth, stop cherishing opinions.

I have found that staying with the "I AM" as soon as thinking begins is effective in stopping thoughts. Initially self awareness had no effect on thinking but as I practiced just being it began to slow down.

The sensations you feel around your head is the energy of awareness. When awareness turns on it self it produces these energy experiences around the head. Normally you dont feel this as attention is always turned outside.

venkym | Tue, 09/09/2008 - 14:29
seeker's picture

you may be right

you may be right but i think we better always put in proportions what others say (e.g. "non dual traditions", "Zen" and even ramana), all these are 2nd-hand hearsays for us if we don't experience them and thus theories. Instead we should try it by ourselves and verify it. There is no substitute to personal experience. No matter who said it, if it is not your experience then it is not worth much.

I also felt that abiding in the "I Am" turns off the thinking so if it serves you then it is fine. what important here is the result and for each one of us serves a different trick as each one of us is a different mixture of different conditionings.

In a nutshell, stopping the thinking the way the OP describes works amazingly. The sensations i experienced by the way do not feel like those subtle ones of awareness but were rougher ones as if something stretches or changes there inside... At some point they subside...

seeker | Tue, 09/09/2008 - 16:05
venkym's picture

it does work

To be honest i didnt try what Shira described first. I just got conceptual first. It does work and the sensations are much stronger than those of awareness. What i'm not sure is will this lead somewhere?

Being a beginner to spirituality is tough. There are an infinte number of traditions and teachings and precious little first hand knowledge. So one just gropes around in the darkness holding on to whatever is understood conceptually. I guess at some point I will see the moon, until then the finger that points is still useful.

venkym | Wed, 09/10/2008 - 16:36
Annie's picture

The beginning is the most exciting phase

hey come on, the beginning is the most exciting phase AS LONG AS YOU DON'T SET OBJECTIVES AND EXPECTATIONS. It is tough when the mind sets targets and asks to be efficient in obtaining these targets and then you get pressured and the essence is lost.

Just follow your heart when you face the spiritual variety and enjoy the path itself which is more important than the desired outcomes.

The technique above is strong. One correction that makes the difference: it is not stopping the thoughts, it is stopping one step before the thoughts. This is part of the uniqueness as I see it after doing it.

Annie | Thu, 09/11/2008 - 00:47
slenten's picture

A great technique!

I've been employing a similar method for two years to observe the energy of thoughts and emotions. Residual waves from the Solar Plexus are felt if the thought has emotional energy and higher mentation leaves finer ripples which subside, allowing me to center in the area of the Reticular Formation. Simply subtracting egoic attention removes meaning from the thought and what remains is vibrational energy.

Another effective way to blast the chattering brain into silence is to shoot some prana up the spine by energizing the solar plexus at the bottom of the breath.
It works great if you're being bugged by an uncooperative mind during meditation. The downside of that is that the rush of energy can push you off of holding the attention deep in, prior to thought. The prana can be modulated, however, and with practice it can compliment deeper meditation. Resort to it if the mind won't shut up.

OM,
slenten.

slenten | Fri, 09/19/2008 - 16:32
shira's picture

Sounds interesting!

thanks slenten, sounds interesting! i will try it tonight...

shira | Fri, 09/19/2008 - 16:44
lionking29's picture

Method

" to shoot some prana up the spine by energizing the solar plexus at the bottom of the breath".

How to practise this method....

what do u mean by prana up the spine?

As i am new to meditation,I thought this could help me.

Regards

shankar

lionking29 | Mon, 11/17/2008 - 09:32
zoya's picture

like weakening the bull in the corrida

hey it works but does require a long practice of acceptance before which probably simply weakens the mind so that it is ready to be tamed like you do with the bull in the corrida.

zoya | Thu, 01/08/2009 - 00:39
Omkaradatta's picture

The mind

Compulsive thoughts are 'caused' mostly by emotional attachments, and such attachments have to be addressed or the mind will continue. The ancient prescription is vivek-vairagya, dispassion/detachment and discrimination. Without the latter (discrimination) it won't work, but most people are too lazy and go for the meditation only.

How can one detach without knowing the mind well, knowing what you're attached to and why it's false and futile to be attached to it? Otherwise, desires, fears and cravings just keep the mind spinning for ever.

Taming the mind is a matter of letting go whatever troubles it. Instead of beating up on the bull, simply walk out of the corrida.

P.S. there's a reason why people don't do this. Hint: You are really the bull. Abandoning the ring is the end of 'you'. If you fight the bull, you are both the bull and the bullfighter. In a fight against yourself, who do you suppose will win... you, or you? ;-).

http://www.omkaradatta.info

Omkaradatta | Thu, 01/08/2009 - 03:39
Quantum's picture

Starting to get it.

"....detachment and discrimination. Without the latter (discrimination) it won't work, but most people are too lazy and go for the meditation only.

How can one detach without knowing the mind well, knowing what you're attached to and why it's false and futile to be attached to it? Otherwise, desires, fears and cravings just keep the mind spinning for ever. "

I'm beginning to follow you.

"You are really the bull."

Very true for me. Eventhough I am already discriminately aware that I am the bull (my thoughts/emotions) while also fighting the bull (my thoughts/emotions), and I know I want to walk out of the arena, my feet are somehow superglued to the ground. It feels like standing on the edge of the precipice, but I can't take that final plunge into detachment.

Howevergradually, these past 10 months of daily meditation, I am more aware of the thoughts and emotions running through my head as they occur. Not fully detached or distanced, or separated yet. Perhaps it takes some amount of clock time for me to get there. Scotty won't flip the switch and beam me up to liberation.

Quantum | Fri, 01/08/2010 - 18:52
neo's picture

It is also my experience

It is also my experience. It works. See my comment in It is also my experience about this.

Thanks and love.

neo | Fri, 05/15/2009 - 14:31
Quantum's picture

I've given up.

I ignore the thoughts, sort of like ignoring unwelcome squatters living in your house. Just walk around them.

With emotions, this is what I do, based on my understanding and experience:

I go into my meditation, close my eyes, and focus my attention on the physical component of the emotion. Ssometimes I may need to call to mind the thought, the memory, of the event to trigger the physical component (physical feeling, sensation) of the emotion. With focused attention on the physical sensation of the emotion, it seems to dissolve, dissipate within 2 minutes, and releases the energy trapped in those muscles, or other body part in which they trapped.

Even a massage therapist mentioned to me me years ago, before I got into any of this meditation stuff, that emotions get stored in our muscles.

I am by no means a skilled Zen master, or yogi of the highest order. But that's what I do with emotions anyway. When I can, of course.

I will have to remember to do it with positive emotions next time and see if I can dissolve those too, and see if I get the same comfortable explosion/release of energy. Since, my understanding is that emotions are ego based and contain opposites, so are not our true "Being."

Quantum | Wed, 09/16/2009 - 23:22
Phroggy's picture

"I will have to remember to

"I will have to remember to do it with positive emotions next time and see if I can dissolve those too, and see if I get the same comfortable explosion/release of energy. Since, my understanding is that emotions are ego based and contain opposites, so are not our true "Being.""

Which may lead one to ask if 'enlightenment' is a condition of no emotional expression or feeling, which can then lead to the question of whether this is even desirable.

It's not the feelings or emotions we seek to dissolve or nullify, but rather the attachment to them. Feelings are not a problem, even in their great depths. Beingness, however, is merely experiencing these things and is not identified with them.

Dissolving all of it may not leave you feeling like a happy camper, so in the event this ccurs, remember that they are not what you are, and they can simply be allowed to arise and fall as they will.

The storing of these emotions in the body, mind or heart is the attachment to them, either pushing or pulling, and not the feelings themselves.

Phroggy | Sat, 09/19/2009 - 01:03
Quantum's picture

Okay. so what do you do when someone makes you angry?

OKay no more theory...real life personal example now please. What do you do when someone makes you angry, or say, steals your car? What exactly do you do to experience detached observer "Being" while the emotions of anger in the meantime are seething through every fiber of your being?

Or say, someone slaps you on the face, or spits on you, or ties you up and whips the living tar out of you and so on and so on? Then nails you up?

How precisely do you experience a peaceful, detached, observing thingy called while "Being", while undergoing traumatic circumstances?

Quantum | Sat, 09/19/2009 - 01:46
Phroggy's picture

Hi Quantum I don't have any

Hi Quantum
I don't have any theories to offer you.
What would I do? I don't know, but I'm guesing I'd summon all the strenght, courage and cunning I could find and fight for my life. Would there be another response that you would deem preferable or more appropriate?

So, is cruxifiction a part of your daily routine? I have to admit it's not a part of mine, except maybe symbolically. Hehe. I hear you talk of negative emotions manifesting negativity in your life, but at the same time you believe such things as you describe happen randomly?

::::Inserting required example here:::::

The last time i expressed genuine anger (I mean byond a dirty look) was about 5 years ago. My current ladyfriend had recently moved in with me, and an old girlfriend kept coming by unannounced, wanting to get back together. I had been gently telling her not to come by anymore, and it clearly wasn't working. I suddely found myself screaming at her, whereupon she left without saying a word and never returned. (She and I were together for 9 years and she never heard me scream, so you can imagine the shock.

The interesting thing is that there was no anger in me at all, not even a racing heart, and it was as though i was watching from a distance. It was clear why it needed to happen and so i let it happen. Love can take even this form when needed.

The person is not what you are, and left alone, it will respond appropriately to the situation. Again, it's the personal identification with those responses that causes the difficulty. In the absence of the personal identification, there is no personal need to express or not express.

::::Inserting another required example:::::

The other day, Marie and I were walking in the park and she had a momentary upset. She didn't say anything but we're very attuned to each other, and I knew she was upset, and she knew that I knew, but I just went silent and we continued to walk. In less than a minute, she was fine and we were back to playing like silly children again. (In fact, this whole scenario is very much like what children do before they learn other behaviors)

A while later, we were talking about something, and she said, "I love how you don't react. You just give me the space to feel what i feel and I can let it happen." In this way, feelings are honored rather than negated or fed, and they can be allowed to move without censorship or consequence. She knows that I'll be here to take her hand again as soon as she's ready. Not when I want it to happen, but when she's ready.

You are always "Being". You don't have to stop doing something in order to Be, but you might have to stop personally identifying with what happens around you. It's not really about you at all.

Phroggy | Sun, 09/20/2009 - 18:43
Quantum's picture

I Understand Now

Hi Phroggy, thank you for your continued kinds posts on this forum.

I understand now. It's all okay. Even the not okay is okay. As long as we know it's not okay, then it's okay to not be okay. Of course, common sense, and being pragmatic still rules. Yes, I would probably muster all my strench too, in that example also and ...well, run like mad.

But as for my emotions, and how much I hated them, I realized that I don't need to change a thing. I really thought I HAD to find some magic eastern hindi buddhis zen mystic way to "detach" from emotions, so that I could watch them from a third person perspective an not even experience the pain of them. But I just realized I don't need to do that. Who says I'm not allowed to wallow in my contempt for(thus adding to) the pain of negative emotions?

Within the guiding pricinciples of the Golden Rule, and not hurting others, it's all good.

Quantum | Sun, 09/20/2009 - 19:18
Omkaradatta's picture

By...

By not trying to predict what I would do, now, in some future situation.

By "not living by memory", now.

Living by memory, one disturbs the inherent "Peace" that is always here.

Asking such questions, now, is the "me" bringing the past into the present, attempting to predict the future.

There is no answer. The questioning fails.

http://www.omkaradatta.info

Omkaradatta | Sun, 09/20/2009 - 20:49
Quantum's picture

Power of Now

Thanks Omkara, Sounds like power of Now.

I'm ready to move on to something else to discuss. This time purely for the fun of it. To entertain my mind. Because I like to entertain it. It's fun.

Good forum. Very good.

Gotta go climb on the roof now to treat some moss.

Namaster.

Quantum | Mon, 09/21/2009 - 01:02
Omkaradatta's picture

"Power of now"

The 'power of now' is just one viewpoint on it.

There are a million ways to express what can't be expressed, none of them actually 'getting anything across' to the reader, ever.

There's a clue in this fact, if one looks closely ;-).

http://www.omkaradatta.info

Omkaradatta | Mon, 09/21/2009 - 01:31
Quantum's picture

Viewpoint

"...The 'power of now' is just one viewpoint on it."

Yes. I noticed. I like it's viewpoint very much.

Your posts seem to point to the same direction, but in differewants ways, and words. Sometimes hitting the same vocabulary I am familiar with.

Then there's the Tao Te Ching.
The New Testament.
The Gita.

Etc.

The Power resonate for me the same way that book you mentioned in your website resonates with you. I saw a close match in something you said, so I mentioned the book. Sounds like you already read it.

(Oh by the way...when I say "I", it's my mind and ego talking. My ..my my my my my my my...nth Being (pure consciousness) has no interest in any of this. It just is. And watches. But since I'm here, equipped with all the foibles that come with Being incarnated as human ...I might as well indulge in all the foibles.

By the way, Tim, do you always sound sound crypted even when you talk with your friends outside this forum? Average people will not have any clue what you would be saying. Well, at least no one I know in person outside of this forum, anyway.

But it's all good. I'm glad I found a place where deep concepts and ideas are expressed and exchanged. I got what I cam here for, and I'm happy. And there are some metaphysical things I want to discuss, purely for entertainment value, but them may seem a bit "out there."

Quantum | Mon, 09/21/2009 - 03:29
Quantum's picture

Typos

PS: Pls excuse the typos.

Quantum | Mon, 09/21/2009 - 03:31
nathan's picture

Great technique but needs preparation

I once used to think that it is impossible and paradoxial to be able to stop thoughts. It was when my mind was too strong - it was therefore indeed impossible to stop or influence it on one hand, and on the other hand, being strong it came with all sorts of ideas and theories that "proved" that it is stoppable.

So what I did is to observe it, observe the thinking with a detachement, to watch the stream of thoughts.

And as a result of doing this for a long period, my mind weakened considerably. It lost its dominance.

Then and only then when it has become weak, I found out that it was indeed constrolable to some extent and that thoughts can be stopped easily.

nathan | Sat, 09/19/2009 - 07:10
Quantum's picture

The Mind watching the Mind?

"...watch the stream of thoughts."

The mind watching the thoughts? Mind watching mind? So, the mind is watching itself?

If I tried to do what you said, it would be my mind watching the thoughts, because --I am-- (BEING is) still (identified with) my mind.

Namaste.

Quantum | Sat, 09/19/2009 - 19:37
Phroggy's picture

The game of control is one

The game of control is one the ego loves to play for reasons that should be obvious. There is not someone thinking, and then someone else wanting to stop the thinking. This splitting of the mind is what makes all the inner conflict possible. It begins to appear that there are two or more individual entities present when really there are no individual entities, and therefore no possibility of actual control.

That which thinks is what has the thought to stop the thinking. The notion that you can control thought is just another thought over which you have no control. What has been identified as 'you' is not operating against 'your' wishes until you imagine there are two and that one of them is denying your wishes.

To put it simply, if you are the one thinking, and you wish to stop, then stop. This can happen when there is the desire to do so, but as you know, this desire is not present for long. An empty mind is devoid of self identity and since you believe you are the controller of the mind, you are mind identified. (The controller must be in the mind) When thoughts do not arise for a time, there is no confirmation of this identity. Even the controller has ceased to exist.

One cannot overcome this existential fear through control because it is the controller who fears for his existence and yet does not actually exist. From the perspective of this imagined mind identified person, this fear is justified. Control is the means of avoiding this existential death. The captain stands on the deck of his ship and watches for the fluttering of the sails and commands the wind to blow, declaring himself captain of the sea. This is all that is happening.

Phroggy | Mon, 09/21/2009 - 19:38
salim's picture

nice theory

You convinced me, now convince reality to follow your logic.

salim | Mon, 09/21/2009 - 21:19
Phroggy's picture

I've learned that here

I've learned that here "theory" and "logic" are derogatory words meant to insult without having to look insulting. As such, pointing out that it has nothing to with any theory or logic is probably pointless and irrelevant.
I can talk about what's true, but I can't make you see it. That you have to do, assuming there's any interest in what's true.

Phroggy | Tue, 09/22/2009 - 19:47
Omkaradatta's picture

Unfortunately...

"Unfortunately" there's no volition in any of it. Barbara and her "stop button" come to mind here ;-). One 'sees it' or one doesn't, and part of the factor in 'seeing it' is realizing that it has nothing to do with an other, nothing to do with learning that takes place over time.

An 'other' in the form of a teacher cannot give a realization of 'there is no other', a teaching learned over time cannot transmit 'the timeless', an indirect assumption that "another is telling me this" cannot transmit 'direct knowing', talking cannot transmit 'Being'.

http://www.omkaradatta.info

Omkaradatta | Tue, 09/22/2009 - 19:57
kaput's picture

Yes, it works

Yes, it works and needs the mind to be weak. Heavy thinkers will not be able to do it until they loosen their addiction to thinking and thus weaken their mind. Amusingly, this is one of the reasons why such people tend to develop comprehensive theories why this can't work instead of simply meditating and then trying it.

There are also other ancient yogi techniques that achieve the same. Different people tend to feel comfortable with different techniques.

kaput | Thu, 09/24/2009 - 07:03
Phroggy's picture

All of you here who believe

All of you here who believe you've succeeded in stopping the thinking, are, of course, enlightened, since nothing stands in the way of this clarity but thought, and even ego is contained entirely in the thoughts. I congratulate you all on your achievement and look forward to your Satsangs. You should also get together and publish a book on the correct method for causing enlightenment because all the gurus until now somehow neglected to give us the correct method in a clear, cohesive format.

Phroggy | Thu, 09/24/2009 - 09:12
Omkaradatta's picture

Of course...

Of course, a temporary stoppage of thought is possible. It isn't enlightenment, any more than a temporary stoppage of pain is a cure for cancer.

http://www.omkaradatta.info

Omkaradatta | Thu, 09/24/2009 - 16:11
anderlaus's picture

Like relaxing a muscle

Of course it works. It is just the addiction to thinking and identification with the thinker that make this stopping such a big unbelievable surprise and raises such a fearful objection in heavy thinkers.

After experiencing no mind you understand that it is the natural state and not the "normal" neurotic never ending thinking we are so used to, as Eckhart Tolle states in "The Power of Now".

I didn't try the technique described in the post though encountered once something similar in Hatha Yoga that manipulates the energy invested in the thinking process instead of the process itself. For me simple meditating on a point for about half an hour achieves the same freeze. It is as easy as relaxing a muscle and indeed there is no much difference between the two.

anderlaus | Thu, 09/24/2009 - 09:51
Quantum's picture

Ancient Yogi Technique?

"Heavy thinkers will not be able to do it until they loosen their addiction to thinking..."

I'm a heavy thinker. I love it. I enjoy my holistic person.

"There are also other ancient yogi techniques ..."

Now, about that Ancient yogi technique. Can you share them?

"Different people tend to feel comfortable with different techniques."

Yes. I noticed this in, well, me. I so much hate, excuse me, dislike, the counting meditation. And for some reason I simply cannot watch my breath. My mind wanders after the first inhalation, and never comes back. Inner Body Awareness Meditation however, I can resonate with. Easy for me to do sitting on cushions with eyes closed, as well, as while driving, washing dishes, getting mad at someone, listening to emotional meltdowns while trying to cook or read something, etc. Inner Body Awareness is really nice while looking at trees. I had no idea that was the mechanics of what was happening when I felt peaceful looking at trees, natures, all these years.

Anyway...how about one of those ancient technique's, eh? One of them might work well with me.

Pax Vobiscum

Quantum | Thu, 09/24/2009 - 19:01
Quantum's picture

Hey Kaput

I sent you a reply, but it does not look like it linked in the right spot. It's down below.

Namaste

Quantum | Thu, 09/24/2009 - 19:04
Surya Kumar Mishra's picture

redeployment

tell an obedient monkey to climb up the 10 feet pole and then come down and continue doing this.
in a similar way by doing kriya pranayama, eventually, the mind stops thinking.
pl remember, the manomaya kosha (mind-only sheath)is complementary tp pranamaya kosha (air-only sheath)

Om tat sat !!!

Surya Kumar Mishra | Sun, 05/08/2011 - 09:41
Quantum's picture

More quiet now

Since my very first post on this column, my mind seems a little more subdued. Excuse the word subdued. Words seem inadequate. I don't feel like messing with semantics.

In any case, my mind was, and still is, so noisy, that it took months, if not years, to finally start slowing down a bit.

Innerbody awareness is still my practice of choice. I love it beyond all others.

I still look at trees while feeling the innerbody. It's like...wow man.

Just try it.

Similar to the pleasure you might have sitting outside on a weekend morning, all is quiet, trees are green, sky is cloudy, a little drizzle, sipping a cup of mocha, washing down a bit of Tripple Chocolate Brownie. And everything is calm and quiet before everyone else wakes up and starts screaming, and you have to commit the rest of the day pleasure people, running errands, serving other peoples needs, before you can find another blissful 10 minutes to yourself.

Those moments are Bliss, man.

-A family with a two kids

Quantum

Quantum | Sun, 05/08/2011 - 20:33
Quantum's picture

typo above

I meant:

"...and you have to commit the rest of the day pleasing other people,.."

Quantum | Sun, 05/08/2011 - 20:35
Quantum's picture

and another typo

I meant:

"Since my very first post on this forum."

Quantum | Sun, 05/08/2011 - 20:36